stainless steels

[ethan.hunter]

Which stainless steels are good to sustain in salt water?

[sal]

Hi Ethan,

Welcome to our forum.

At this time, H1 and LC200N.

sal

[JD Spydo]

Hi Ethan,

Welcome to our forum.

At this time, H1 and LC200N.

sal

Mr Glesser I completely agree with you and those two steels are great in their own rite>> but there is another blade steel I've had great luck with that is really also salt water resistant. I'm speaking of X-15 TN that Boker used on a few of their blades. It truly was a great blade steel for use in harsh environments.

[sal]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

[JD Spydo]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

That's really interesting and confusing in some ways. Because before you guys implemented the H-1 Salt Series I got a knife from Benchmade which was a dive knife>> it was model "100S-H20" which at that time ( around 2001-2002) and it was the very first knife I ever owned that had H-1 blade steel>> and it was only available in plain edge. Well what's extremely weird is that they still had that particular dive knife for a couple more years but guess what steel they replaced H-1 blade steel with? They went from H-1 to X-15 TN.>> and as far as I know I think they still make a dive knife with that X-15 TN steel :confused: .

What's more weird to me is a company who makes the caliber of production knives that Benchmade makes why would they do that??? :confused:>> basically go backwards in quality :confused: Also ironically that dive knife 100S-H20 was never offered in serrated or even combo edge :confused: . Then Spyderco gets ahold of the H-1 blade steel to discover that it's one of the best serrated blade steels on the market>> and the rest is history. Which you guys obvious hit the jackpot with H-1 blade steel

[tangent]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

This is interesting...I always thought we would see a Pac Salt or Salt 2 in LC200N before some other new steel. Sal, does this have something to do with the issue of producing a Non-Japanese steel in Seki-City? I am really looking forward to a FFG, PE rust proof Salt 2 or Pac Salt that holds an edge longer than H1. I can't be the only one.

[VashHash]

Hi Ethan,

Welcome to our forum.

At this time, H1 and LC200N.

sal

Mr Glesser I completely agree with you and those two steels are great in their own rite>> but there is another blade steel I've had great luck with that is really also salt water resistant. I'm speaking of X-15 TN that Boker used on a few of their blades. It truly was a great blade steel for use in harsh environments.

I had a friend with a boker in this steel. It was terrible. I would sharpen it and after cutting a piece of 1/4" manila rope it was pretty much dull again. Maybe it was a bad sample but I sharpened that knife several times and it would still dull out quickly.

[vivi]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

What type of grind does this Pacific Salt have? Full flat, saber hollow or saber flat?

[Stuart Ackerman]

I have two X15N blades on the go...I think that it is like 440B in edge holding, but it is more stain resistant than cast 440c and VG10.

I bought it in round bar and forged it down to 7mm flat, and then surface ground it.

I am going to use the smaller one to destruction...yup, THAT word. :)

The bigger one will be donated to a diver friend for apparaisal.

The third piece, not surface ground yet, will be bigger than the first two, and I will grind and finish that one when I get time.

That said, LC200N and H1 will out perform it is stainlessness.

I am just, like Cyndi Lauper once declared, having fun. :)

[Zenith]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

This is interesting...I always thought we would see a Pac Salt or Salt 2 in LC200N before some other new steel. Sal, does this have something to do with the issue of producing a Non-Japanese steel in Seki-City? I am really looking forward to a FFG, PE rust proof Salt 2 or Pac Salt that holds an edge longer than H1. I can't be the only one.

Bohler BÖHLER N360 ISOEXTRA is also known as DIN 1.4108 (Germany steel grades), Cronidur 30 and LC200N fall under DIN 1.4108 grade with small changes in chemistry.

There is a patent available where Cronidur 30 was used for watch casing and the following is an extract (Patent EP 1033632B1):

"In particular, the manufacture of the case 1 as well as the cover 6 from the solid material takes place by means of machining, in which a blank is first produced. Afterwards this blank is heated in a vacuum furnace or in a protective furnace atmosphere to a temperature above 1000° C., preferably to a temperature between 1030 and 1060° C. and then quenched. This is followed by stress relief of the hardened blank at a temperature below 200° C., i.e. at a temperature between approx. 170˜180° C. for a period of one to two hours.

The case 1 and the cover 6, which then have a hardness of up to 63 or 65 HRC, can be post-processed on the surfaces, for example by abrasive blasting with glass beads, mirror-bright polishing, or CVD-PVD coating."

So yes, basically LC200N Sal is testing in this platform :D and if the patent is correct with some experimentation we could see a blade of up to HRC 63. In a production setting if Spyderco could run anything close to HRC 60-62 without giving up corrosion resistance and other aspects they value in such a design it would be a win win for the end line user.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Of course, someone is going to say that Spyderco should start making watches now... :)

[ThePeacent]

Hi JD,

We've tested it, many years ago when it first came out. We weren't satisfied with the results. I guess we can take another look at it if others agree. I'm currently testing N360 in a Pacific Salt prototype.

sal

that's very exciting news for us Salt fans.
May I ask, Mr.Glesser, if you have found any difference between LC200N and N360, and whether the prototype is SE or PE?

Thanks! :spyder:

[Xplorer]

....The case 1 and the cover 6, which then have a hardness of up to 63 or 65 HRC...."

So yes, basically LC200N Sal is testing in this platform :D and if the patent is correct with some experimentation we could see a blade of up to HRC 63. In a production setting if Spyderco could run anything close to HRC 60-62 without giving up corrosion resistance and other aspects they value in such a design it would be a win win for the end line user.

Hi Zenith,
I can offer a little additional insight. I've discussed LC200N H/T with Sal and Peter at Spyderco. Without going into what I know about what Spyderco has been doing with LC200N H/T experimentation, I can say they've definitely been working to get the best possible results (no surprise :) ). I too have been working with Cronidur 30/LC200N/ZFiNit quite extensively. My goal for the past 8 months has been to achieve the highest possible hardness while maintaining appropriate toughness, corrosion resistance and edge characteristics. In that time I've learned a lot about what this steel can do and cannot do. I can tell you that the temper temperature in the patent you quoted would work well for watch casings but does not apply to fine-edged cutting tools like a knife. When hardening LC200N at temps at or above 1030C, tempering at 170-180c for 1 to 2 hours will produce high hardness but the final result is too brittle and prone to chipping and breaking for a knife blade. In order to achieve good overall blade/edge characteristics the temper has to be done at a considerably higher temperature than that. The highest hardness result I've seen with very good overall characteristics so far is HRC 60.3. This should not be disappointing to anyone..as LC200N performs exceptionally well at 60.3 and still exhibits unbelievable corrosion resistance. You are exactly correct that production blades with an HRC between 60 and 62 would indeed be a win for the end line user. At HRC 58-59 LC200N is already a great steel due to it's combination of very good blade/edge characteristics and amazing corrosion resistance. My goal remains HRC61 (while maintaining great blade/edge characteristics). I still have a little remaining optimism that it will be achievable, but I'm almost out of variables to adjust in my effort to achieve that goal. That said, if after testing every possible variable it turns out that HRC60 - 60.5 is the highest hardness that can be reliably achieved with the desired blade characteristics that would be just fine. If nearly corrosion proof steel is what a person desires in a knife, LC200N at HRC60 possesses an impressive combination of edge holding and toughness that is unique among such knife steels.
I'm also currently testing another brand-new steel that it's manufacturer claims will be just as corrosion resistant as LC200N and will have even better edge retention but so far the (very early) testing has not proven to be superior to LC200N.

Best regards,
Chad

[Stuart Ackerman]

Nice info, Chad.

[seber]

One thing I discovered over many years of tool design is that heat treat and final hardness can have a very large effect on corrosion resistance. I can't say for sure that all steels will respond that way. Spyderco blades are tempered much harder than European blades I've handled so it is not surprising that they might find different results.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Sal, JD, Stuart, and others: What do you make of N690Co (Cobalt) stainless steel? How would it compare to the N360 stuff? Fox of Italy and some other companies like to use it in their higher-priced fixed and folding knives and I think some others like Eickhorn of Germany of used it. Would it be similar to VG10 as far as corrosion-resistance and edge-holding goes?

[Stuart Ackerman]

N690 is my favourite steel, and AEB-L close behind.
N690 and VG10 offer the same performance..

[sal]

We have tried a number of heat treaters on LC200N and we have not been able to get it harder than 60. Though it does perform well at 59-60.

We're also testing N360 and we've got some Vanax coming in for testing.

sal

[sal]

Hey SEF,

Most of the knives we've made in Italy have been N690Co.

sal

[Zenith]

....The case 1 and the cover 6, which then have a hardness of up to 63 or 65 HRC...."

So yes, basically LC200N Sal is testing in this platform :D and if the patent is correct with some experimentation we could see a blade of up to HRC 63. In a production setting if Spyderco could run anything close to HRC 60-62 without giving up corrosion resistance and other aspects they value in such a design it would be a win win for the end line user.

Hi Zenith,
I can offer a little additional insight.......That said, if after testing every possible variable it turns out that HRC60 - 60.5 is the highest hardness that can be reliably achieved with the desired blade characteristics that would be just fine. If nearly corrosion proof steel is what a person desires in a knife, LC200N at HRC60 possesses an impressive combination of edge holding and toughness that is unique among such knife steels.

Best regards,
Chad

I agree Chad. Getting to a HRC number repeatably with a steel is important and at HRC of 60 and given LC200N characteristics that is more than suitable for every day use.

I have one of Des Horns Imvubus with Nitrobe-77. That is the only nitrogen based steel I know can achieve around HRC 62 consistently with good knife edge properties.

My experience with 14C28N has also been good at around 60. Nitrogen steels just fascinate me.

We have tried a number of heat treaters on LC200N and we have not been able to get it harder than 60. Though it does perform well at 59-60.

We're also testing N360 and we've got some Vanax coming in for testing.

sal

Vanax should be interesting. Cost here in South Africa has not made an import option currently but it does have extremely favorable chemistry.

I do believe Chad and myself, though we speak of HRC numbers know it is not the end factor of a steel. Too many people get stuck on HRC numbers rather then questioning the design intent that a steel is used within and then adjusting the austinisation and tempering cycle accordingly.

In a manufacturing setting getting LC200n to HRC of 59-60 and having it there consistently is an achievement in it self and well done to Spyderco on that.

Sal, JD, Stuart, and others: What do you make of N690Co (Cobalt) stainless steel? How would it compare to the N360 stuff? Fox of Italy and some other companies like to use it in their higher-priced fixed and folding knives and I think some others like Eickhorn of Germany of used it. Would it be similar to VG10 as far as corrosion-resistance and edge-holding goes?

Apologies for chiming in here, I am in the same boat as Stuart, especially for folders and smaller hunting fixed blades. Taking into account performance, cost, quality N690 is a hard steel to beat. I work in mining, oil and gas industry and have tested my knives in those areas and N690 remains a favorite. It is in my opinion one of the better balanced steels with regards to properties before going to powdered metallurgical steel. Powdered steel wise I prefer Nitrobe-77, RWL-34, CTS-XHP, S35VN, M390, S30V (preferably in that order).

Performance wise yes, very similar to VG-10.