Lock strength debate

[Evil D]

Lets try to not let this get out of hand...i'm just curious what everyones opinion is as far as how the different locks available stack up strength wise? If you had to put them all in order from 1 to whatever, where 1 is the strongest, how would you list them? Lets try to keep opinions on ease of use and left/right handedness out and just focus on strength alone

[jackknifeh]

I have no opinion here because I've used knives with various locks and never had one fail on me. That may be because I don't use knives for real hard use. I've had a couple fail because of manufacturing problems and the company fixed them. That kind of failure has nothing to do with lock strength so it really doesn't count for this thread. I would like to hear what other say though so by posting this I'll be notified when someone gives input.

Jack

[Creepo]

Ooooh boy, I hope you realize what you just got yourself into... :D
I'll sit this one as I'm not really a "lock-nut" so to speak.
As long as the quality control is right, I'll go with any lock.

[Evil D]

See...it's almost impossible for people to unwrap their minds around it LOL

I'm not talking about failure, or about abuse, i'm simply referring to strength...period. I agree that it isn't a big enough issue for me to not buy a knife based on the lock because i've never had one fail either. I'm just curious what everyone opinion is on how strong each lock is versus the next.

[The Deacon]

Problem is, lock strength does no exist in a vacuum. A poorly made knife will be weaker than a well made one, even if it uses a supposedly superior lock. There is also the question of failure mode. Is it lock failure only if pressure on the spine folds the knife? What about pressure on the edge folding the blade back? Ease of accidental release? Failure of the pivot itself?

That said, I'd rate a well engineered and well made titanium RIL with a heavy duty pivot and a full length backspacer rather than the normal stop pin as being as close to bulletproof as a folding knife can be.

[merthyrmafia]

Good post Evil D, people get very defensive about locks, I myself find it very strange, I have no problem saying what I think in regards to differing knife locks, and never take it personal like iv'e found out on the British blades forum now I know where all the school bullies ended up! administrators on that site, I have many knives with different locking systems, but I would say I prefer a compression lock, or a liner lock, those locking systems get tighter and usually stronger with use, where as a backlock certaily will wear quicker and then develop blade play.

[HistoricalMan]

In terms of strength I find that the compression lock ranks pretty high. You're more likely to experience a complete failure of the lock enclosure or the blade itself before the lock gives in. I also really like where it tends to be located on a knife as it makes accidentally disengaging the lock rather difficult.

I also really like the RIL and the liner lock, but they're definitely two types of locking mechanisms that need to be implemented correctly for them to maintain a reasonable level of strength. They also rank lower on the "accidental disengagement scale" in comparison to the compression lock.

[Evil D]

Yeah i just don't understand why this is such a taboo topic. I know it has an infinite amount of answers because yeah you can build a back lock with a half inch wide blade and 1/4 inch scales and it'll lock up so tight you can stand on it and beat it with a sledge hammer, but does anyone have a knife like that? I'm talking about Spyderco knives (God forbid we mention that OTHER lock) and of the locks offered on the knives offered. I know you can't compare the lock on a Manix 2 to a Ladybug...that'd be silly...i'm speaking in general here, not the end all beat all chiseled in stone answer to "what's the strongest lock".

[The Deacon]

Lets try to not let this get out of hand...i'm just curious what everyones opinion is as far as how the different locks available stack up strength wise? If you had to put them all in order from 1 to whatever, where 1 is the strongest, how would you list them? Lets try to keep opinions on ease of use and left/right handedness out and just focus on strength alone

See...it's almost impossible for people to unwrap their minds around it LOL

I'm not talking about failure, or about abuse, i'm simply referring to strength...period. I agree that it isn't a big enough issue for me to not buy a knife based on the lock because i've never had one fail either. I'm just curious what everyone opinion is on how strong each lock is versus the next.

Yeah i just don't understand why this is such a taboo topic. I know it has an infinite amount of answers because yeah you can build a back lock with a half inch wide blade and 1/4 inch scales and it'll lock up so tight you can stand on it and beat it with a sledge hammer, but does anyone have a knife like that? I'm talking about Spyderco knives (God forbid we mention that OTHER lock) and of the locks offered on the knives offered. I know you can't compare the lock on a Manix 2 to a Ladybug...that'd be silly...i'm speaking in general here, not the end all beat all chiseled in stone answer to "what's the strongest lock".

Seems like at least part of the problem is that you''re asking, on the one hand, for an evaluation of strength, but then disallowing the normal way weakness is determined, by failure. You want to know which lock folks consider the strongest, but don't want "the end all beat all chiseled in stone answer to what's the strongest lock". Perhaps if you gave us your choices, and the logic behind them, we'd have a better idea of what you're looking for.

[Javascript]

Whenever someone has the money and wherewithall to instrument a knife, collect data under controlled conditions, and analyze what is really happening to a lock when force is (mis)applied to a knife, we'll have something concrete to talk about. Otherwise, stories and uncontrolled videos are anecdotal at best.

[dorfinator]

I've only been carrying and collecting knives regularly for almost two years. So I don't have a whole lot of experience nor am I an engineer so to speak. But what I have found, and this is entirely a personal opinion and has no scientific evidence to back it up, I have been favoring the frame lock designed knives. And as the Deacon has pointed out the RIL would be my preferred hard use type locking knife.

My personal preference for this type of lock also makes it easy for me to use the knife with one hand. I know many prefer the lock back that's on the Endura and Delica, or the ball lock like on the Manix. But neither of these could be necessarily called a "one handed" lock. Yes with a lot of practice one can make due, but for me I can easily without consciously looking open and close the frame lock type knife with one hand plus have a knife that has a lock that I don't have to worry about in every day use.

[JNewell]

Lets try to not let this get out of hand...i'm just curious what everyones opinion is as far as how the different locks available stack up strength wise? If you had to put them all in order from 1 to whatever, where 1 is the strongest, how would you list them?

You are either the world's greatest optimist or very naive. :) :) :) (This is meant in a friendly way.)

For pure strength? I'd put the compression lock, Axis lock and TriAd lock in the top tier but there are probably others in that category. I don't think a strictly numerical rating is possible or advisable.

Ehhh. Deacon said it much better than I could...

[unit]

This is funny, I had a response planned before I read the posts thus far...It seems I was thinking outside of the box compared to what the OP wants.

I hold this silly notion that in order to discuss lock STRENGTH, we must have personal understanding of testing (preferably with photos/video, or at minimum good documentation to consider). In order to have absolute ranking, you must not only test to FAILURE, but you must test MULTIPLE examples of each model to determine variances.

After you conduct this testing, you then submit it for review...and even then, your data is only applicable to the models tested (i.e. the Manufacturer, SKU, year of production, etc). Contemplate the changes made to the Military over the years...factors like liners, tolerance, even blade steel probably have an effect.

The reason this topic is such a thorn in some people's side deals with the scads of people that declare that the frame lock (arbitrarily chosen for this duscussion) is the undisputed champion strongest lock...try and comprehend the WILD variance between an utterly despicable example of the lock type, and a well executed version.

If you do not understand what I mean, contemplate this...

Could I get anyone to go along with the notion that the Balisong is the strongest lock? Does this logic pass muster?

Absolutely not! I need only find an example of a very cheap balisong and load the blade with enough weight to shear off the pins...then do the same with a good example of any other "lesser" lock type that does not fail.

I have probably engaged in too many of these conversations....sorry if I offend anyone.

[Morris]

Will we see the Phantom Lock deployed in another Spyderco offering anytime soon? :)

[JNewell]

Will we see the Phantom Lock deployed in another Spyderco offering anytime soon? :)

I think they're already using it widely in the FB-series knives? :D

[bada61265]

this question gets asked often. as far as my own experiance goes id have to say its varied and so much depends on how well a particular version is made. i have virtually no issue with any style of lock if its done well in a quality knife. since i think whacking the spine of a folder with a log is knife abuse i discount those types of reviews being the last so called word on lock strength.
ill givee some examples of my different locks and what ive seen. liner locks, owned several. self adjusting is good for the most part. can wear past the point of being able to keep play out of the blade. never had one close on me accidently, my gayle bradley liner lock could probubly match any other lock ive seen for strength. lock backs, like my endura/ stretch/ delica / police3 / i trust them 100%. i have cycled my endura thousands of times and its as tight a lockup as it was new. will it develop play? maybe, i had a older lockback folder that never did and i had it for over 10 years. cage ball. self adjusting, i dont know if this one wears out ever. will see if it holds up over time, i suspect it will do fine. might be the most mechanically strong lock i own, though i think my gb would do as well as my manix2 due to its massive stainless steel liners. some of the others mentioned including those from bm, cs etc seem fine, i think id give a nod to cs for the triad lock. ive heard bm axis locks get loosey goosey over time. this might be hearsay, ive never owned one. are they strong? yea from what ive heard bm axis is very strong.
so for what its worth i think you can choose a knife with any particular lock and if its a well made knife you should expect to be fine. id therefore base my decisions on knife buying on other things, like blade shape, length, steel, handle material and shape, weight, etc etc more than the lock style.

other considerations are one handed closing. i cant do it as well with a liner lock though some might be able too, i can with the manix and my endura , stretch etc etc. could do it with my old sog with its version of an axis lock. have not tried it with a triad . i suspect its difficult because the lock is lower on the back though that might be overcome with practice. is one handed closing or fast closing important? i like it but its not a deal killer, i love my gb and its no piece of cake to close.

[arjung]

In terms of knives on the market, I think the Triad lock is the most robust *gasp*

Spyderco's framelocks as well as Compression lock is very strong.

My personal preferences are always framelocks and linerlocks.

[npueppke]

I'd put them all into the "strong enough" category :D

[Reeper22]

Could I get anyone to go along with the notion that the Balisong is the strongest lock? Does this logic pass muster?

I'd say balisong if you want to count it.

[Handwrecker]

It's already been stated in nearly every thread about lock strength that this is a moot point, because the lock is designed around the strength desired. It's not like Spyderco brainstorms/manufactures a new lock and then simply hope it's strong enough. These locks are refined over and over until the desired levels are reached. But if push comes to shove and it's imperative to have a final answer, then full tang fixed it is.