Questions for H1 blade owners

[cckw]

I can't find much first hand info on H1 blades. I am wondering about this steel for non-salt water areas, so other steels are fine, I just want to consider it. Can you tell me how bad it is for edge retention on day one?

If on a mission to toughen it up as fast as possible would you use it to open boxes as much misc as possible? or whittle wood for an hour? etc?

Once seasoned then what would you compare the edge holding too?

Is it going to be a great user knife once seasoned, or just a novelty?

[yablanowitz]

Plain edge or serrated?

[RJNC]

I have serrated and plain, and they both seem pretty comparable to regular steel to me. And I live in Santa Fe, NM so I'm certainly carrying it in a non-salt water enviroment.

[Whieee]

First off: H1 is possibly the best thing that happened since the invention of the folding pocketknife. It gets tougher as you use it, takes a wicked edge pretty easily, and no matter what kind of dirt, water, body fluids or even acids you throw at the blade... no staining, and no rust.

Edge holding on day one may not be outstanding.. I'd compare it to AUS-6 for the plain edged blades, a little better for the serrated blades. However, when you've sharpened it a few times (sharpening = work hardening) edge holding quickly becomes comparable to VG-10, while still remaining very easy to sharpen.

I mostly EDC knives with CPM-S30V or ZDP-189 blades, since I love those knives, I like FFG CPM-S30V, and I don't really get them dirty, or mind cleaning them up. However, when I go hiking/climbing or camping, I always take an H1 blade along, preferably a serrated blade, because then I don't care much for nice carbon fiber, or a full flat grind that slices through tomatoes effortless. At those moments I want a sturdy, razorsharp, dependable blade, that cuts whatever I throw at it, without needing rinsing, cleaning or any other maintenance other than occasional sharpening.

To me, H1 is not a novelty. It's a necessity :)

[spoonrobot]

You have to understand that H1 doesn't retain it's edge poorly, it just retains it less well than other modern steels. If you took it by itself it does a pretty decent job of keeping a good edge, it's just not up to the standards of the other higher-end steels in the industry. But. it makes up for this with outstanding corrosion resistance and toughness.

There was a poster over at BF who mentioned buffing the edge with a paper wheel before sharpening on a new knife helped edge retention immensely.

I think it's a great user from day one and only gets slightly better with use.

[Hookpunch]

I own a Pacific Salt, sharpened it a few times and don't see much difference to my Native in VG-10. I really think there is too much obessing about edge retention, the SALT even before work hardening will be more than adequate for your needs, the rust proof nature makes it a slam dunk around salt water.

[StangBang]

I love my Tasman SE Salt. As a matter of fact it was what got me hooked on Spyderco in the first place. I think it keeps its edge quite nicely. I used the crap out of it all summer long and the SE still had an edge. It is my favorite yard knife and anytime it's raining or theres snow on the ground, I grab the tasman. After I sent it to the Spydie spa it came back sharp as ever and ready to rip again.

I LOVE H-1 and I need to get some more of it when funds allow

You won't regret getting an H-1 knife.

[araneae]

H1 is perfectly adequate for most folks out of the box. SE blades will have a higher edge retention than PE blades. I do not believe you can see any real changes with one hour of whittling or cutting cardboard. I am slightly skeptical about the how much work hardening is done by simple use. Many here have stated dramatic increases in edge holding, I would be slow to comment as I touch up my knives frequently so I don't know how long it takes them to get really dull.

I would think that lots of hard use and sharpenings would be required to see a significant increase in hardness or edge retention. I have one of the older Salt 1's from the 1st run. While I am curious about what the Rockwell would be vs a new unused one, I don't know if anyone has tested new vs used blades. I think Sal mentioned it a while back, but don't know if anything was done.

Sorry for the long response. Anyhow I would compare it to AUS8. Holds a decent edge and sharpens easily. No maintenance concerns is a great feature. When you don't have the luxury of keeping the knife clean and dry H1 really shines.

[Blerv]

I would think most people place it close to AUS8 or somewhere between that and VG10. VG10 will hold a plain edge longer out of the box but as for the non-metal guys (myself included) it's pretty impressive stuff.

As the serrations are ground into the stock this seems to harden the edge considerably and they last a long time. Then again, all SpydieEdge knives cut for a very long time without need of sharpening. Even a dull one saws pretty well...the cut just gets a bit more sloppy.

Compared to most other makers H1 is right on par with the premium steels for edge holding. Spyderco and a few other makers are constantly playing with stuff like S90v, ZDP189, and M4. Time changes standards but "never rust" is pretty amazing even without H1's high edge retention being considered.

[kbuzbee]

I am slightly skeptical about the how much work hardening is done by simple use. Many here have stated dramatic increases in edge holding, I would be slow to comment as I touch up my knives frequently so I don't know how long it takes them to get really dull.

I would think that lots of hard use and sharpenings would be required to see a significant increase in hardness or edge retention.

I understand work hardening. The example you read here frequently is repeatedly folding a paperclip. Eventually, it gets so hard it breaks (rather than deforming as it does initially). You can also think about the manufacture of traditional Japanese swords. Hammer, heat, fold, repeat ad nauseum. Heating increased toughness by reducing the internal stresses formed by hammering.

See, here's the thing I just don't get about sharpening/work hardening H1 knives... Sharpening is a VERY low force operation compared to, say, hammering.

So if any work hardening is actually being done, it seems like it would only extend into the blade by only a microscopically small amount. Then, next pass, you remove that newly work hardened layer. It seems like a never ending cycle to me. Okay sure, if you are work hardening the edge you will get the benefit from the last pass... Maybe...

But you'd never be able to put that edge under a Rockwell machine to actually measure it... (okay, I'm sure there is some kind of micro hardness tester out there somewhere that could test an edge but it isn't your standard Rockwell machine)

And, if I'm accurately describing this process it also seems the hardness achieved by my sharpening wouldn't be any greater than the hardness imparted during manufacture.

If someone has an explanation as to why sharpening actually does work harden the edge, I'd love to know. I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, just that I don't understand how it could.

OTOH - if H1 DOES work harden, it seems like you could easily make a device to impart this to the blade. I'm thinking maybe one of those high cycle motors (like you find in Sonicare tooth brushes for example) fitted with a steel rod/plate kind of deal that you could run back and forth over the blade. Maybe that wouldn't be enough force but it would be more than I use during sharpening. Even crushing the blade in a vise should have an impact. AND you could do that near the spine where someone with access to a Rockwell machine COULD test it. I'd really be interested to know the result of that.

Ken

[Slick]

I figure if work hardening H1 was desirable Spyderco would include a manufacturing step to achieve that. There is no free lunch. There must be a trade off for H1.

[ABX2011]

I'm also skeptical of the work hardening that people say occurs from repeated sharpenings.
While I commend Spyderco for offering a product that fills a niche and people seem to like, to me H1 is a novelty. I simply don't need a rust proof knife.

[Naga]

H1 is great stuff; I certainly can't consider it a novelty when so many of us live in wet, humid or salty areas. Repeating what others have said, edge retention and hardness is higher on serrated, and may approach a VG10, while PEs are the hardness of a 'regular' steel. I think most of the work hardening occurs in manufacturing and that you'd have to use one a lot to really increase edge retention.

An important point about hardness/edge retention is the difficulty of sharpening some of the really high-end 'super steels'. Being able to touch up a blade in the field is pretty handy.

Given that corrosion resistance isn't an issue for you, The real question for you may be: What would you get if H1 didn't exist? Would you be getting a blade in 440C or AUS8, on the one hand, or S30V or ZDP-189, on the other?

Since I consider the ZDP to be a novelty, I'd go with AUS8, assuming H1 didn't exist, but that's because I worry about rust.

[kbuzbee]

I figure if work hardening H1 was desirable Spyderco would include a manufacturing step to achieve that. There is no free lunch. There must be a trade off for H1.

Sure, the trade off is in machining. That, as I understand it, is why we don't see any FFG H1 blades. As the steel hardens it wear the tools down faster. But that may be purely speculation. If not, I would LOVE to see a few FFG/micarta folders in the line up.

Ken

[kbuzbee]

I simply don't need a rust proof knife.

I've always wondered about that too. While I also consider my needs to not require rust proof for the blade, what I wonder about is what I'd call micro corrosion on the edge. You know? I'm probably just making this up in my head but it sound like something that could occur. If so, H1 would be an answer to that.

Ken

[dsmegst]

I've been reading and wondering about micro corrosion (nice term, btw) threads in bladeforums too. It does make some sense and I've had instances where I thought my edges were not as sharp as what I remembered from when I put them away. I'm talking weeks and months of disuse.

It would be interesting to compare how H-1 performs in this situation. I just wish I can come up with a good repeatable tests for ultra sharpness. And at this time, my sharpening skills are still not what I would like it to be for a very reliable test.

I think H-1 gets an unfair rep when beginning knife enthusiasts, like myself, first start learning about different steels and more technical details. Most people read things like "it's not as good in edge retention as S30V or VG10" from others that have either little or no firsthand experience with using H-1 and immediately classify it as something lacking.

I'm not implying anything about the OP's question, it's entirely fair and understandable given some of the threads I've seen regarding H-1. And until recently, I had delegated my one H-1 knife to my fishing tackle box and not for EDC because I had the same doubts about H-1. I've added a few more H-1 blades to my collection and I'm EDCing a Salt1 with the intention to use it for the long term.

[Slick]

I've been reading and wondering about micro corrosion (nice term, btw) threads in bladeforums too. It does make some sense and I've had instances where I thought my edges were not as sharp as what I remembered from when I put them away. I'm talking weeks and months of disuse.

It would be interesting to compare how H-1 performs in this situation. I just wish I can come up with a good repeatable tests for ultra sharpness. And at this time, my sharpening skills are still not what I would like it to be for a very reliable test.

I think H-1 gets an unfair rep when beginning knife enthusiasts, like myself, first start learning about different steels and more technical details. Most people read things like "it's not as good in edge retention as S30V or VG10" from others that have either little or no firsthand experience with using H-1 and immediately classify it as something lacking.

I'm not implying anything about the OP's question, it's entirely fair and understandable given some of the threads I've seen regarding H-1. And until recently, I had delegated my one H-1 knife to my fishing tackle box and not for EDC because I had the same doubts about H-1. I've added a few more H-1 blades to my collection and I'm EDCing a Salt1 with the intention to use it for the long term.

VG-10 and S30V are very different steels IMHO. I expect H1 to have its own characteristics. VG-10 takes a finer edge and S30V takes a longer lasting toothy edge. Both steels are my favorite steel.

I look forward to getting a knife in H1 so I can see if I need to add another steel to my favorites.

VG-10 and S30V are not my only favorite steels. My go to kitchen knife is an older Forschner chefs knife that is softer than any real knife steel should be. It is easy to sharpen has great balance. Differnt steels have different strengths. H1 needs to be evaluated for your own requirments.

[yablanowitz]

Saying that H-1 doesn't hold an edge as well as VG-10 or S30V is like saying a Porche 911 is slower than a Lamborghini Diablo or a Michael Schumaker Ferrari. It's true, but so what? The 911 will still outrun 2/3s of everything else out there.

Maybe I'm getting old, but I remember when AUS-8 was considered pretty high end steel. Looking at the offerings from other companies, many of them still seem to think that. Sal has us spoiled. :D

[Joshua J.]

I understand work hardening. The example you read here frequently is repeatedly folding a paperclip. Eventually, it gets so hard it breaks (rather than deforming as it does initially). You can also think about the manufacture of traditional Japanese swords. Hammer, heat, fold, repeat ad nauseum. Heating increased toughness by reducing the internal stresses formed by hammering.

See, here's the thing I just don't get about sharpening/work hardening H1 knives... Sharpening is a VERY low force operation compared to, say, hammering.

So if any work hardening is actually being done, it seems like it would only extend into the blade by only a microscopically small amount. Then, next pass, you remove that newly work hardened layer. It seems like a never ending cycle to me. Okay sure, if you are work hardening the edge you will get the benefit from the last pass... Maybe...

But you'd never be able to put that edge under a Rockwell machine to actually measure it... (okay, I'm sure there is some kind of micro hardness tester out there somewhere that could test an edge but it isn't your standard Rockwell machine)

And, if I'm accurately describing this process it also seems the hardness achieved by my sharpening wouldn't be any greater than the hardness imparted during manufacture.

If someone has an explanation as to why sharpening actually does work harden the edge, I'd love to know. I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, just that I don't understand how it could.

OTOH - if H1 DOES work harden, it seems like you could easily make a device to impart this to the blade. I'm thinking maybe one of those high cycle motors (like you find in Sonicare tooth brushes for example) fitted with a steel rod/plate kind of deal that you could run back and forth over the blade. Maybe that wouldn't be enough force but it would be more than I use during sharpening. Even crushing the blade in a vise should have an impact. AND you could do that near the spine where someone with access to a Rockwell machine COULD test it. I'd really be interested to know the result of that.

Ken

Hey Ken.
Crucible does have a micro Rc tester. They found H-1 to be in the mid 60's Rc range at the edge, specifically on the serrated model. H-1 is initially hardened when they cold roll it down to the thickness we have in our knives. IIRC overall hardness is around Rc 58-59.
I also have a hard time understanding how you can move the metal enough to work harden it just by sharpening. For this reason I try to use my steel and UF stones as much as possible, though eventually you have to remove some material to keep it sharp.
My best bet is that more hardening happens during use than sharpening. I don't put dings and rolls all over my edge when sharpening, on the other hand go cut some cardboard and see if you can get away without any edge damage.

Saying that H-1 doesn't hold an edge as well as VG-10 or S30V is like saying a Porche 911 is slower than a Lamborghini Diablo or a Michael Schumaker Ferrari. It's true, but so what? The 911 will still outrun 2/3s of everything else out there.

Maybe I'm getting old, but I remember when AUS-8 was considered pretty high end steel. Looking at the offerings from other companies, many of them still seem to think that. Sal has us spoiled. :D

Yup.
We need to remember that a lot of people are still using titanium at around Rc 48 in their dive knives (and that's the $300 ones. Poor souls). H-1 holds its edge extremely well compared to every other dive knife out there that isn't made of H-1. (unless you use something like talonite, but that has its own problems.)

I like H-1 just because I never have to wash it, and when I do it doesn't need to be meticulously dried.

[Blerv]

Maybe I'm getting old, but I remember when AUS-8 was considered pretty high end steel. Looking at the offerings from other companies, many of them still seem to think that. Sal has us spoiled. :D

No joke.

Most companies give us AUS8 for a $50-70 knife and VG10 in the $90-120 range.

As for steels as a novelty I think that's a silly concept. They are materials used for certain purposes. Most stuff made from titanium is based on a gimmick because of it's recent hype in the media. There are tougher materials and lighter ones that are much cheaper.

If we want to be reasonable we shouldn't use any stainless steel. Carbon non-stainless steels give a better edge for the buck and holds it for a long time. It rusts and stains but who cares?

I prefer to be un-reasonable and like rust-proof knives that hold a world class edge compared to it's competition. I also like stainless blades that come razor sharp and hold the edge for months. Serrations, ergonomics, snobby steels, and strong locks...yes, we are quite spoiled. :D

Work hardening is an explanation of the steel not a sales-hype or pitch. It doesn't mean it starts as crap and slowly becomes reasonable. They have to account for an increase in hardness somehow. Work hardening sounds better than "magic" so lets just believe em.