A Case of Stretching the Truth?
-
Dr Heelhook
- Member
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:23 am
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Interesting.
I recall watching a YouTube video where Kristy did offer the beheading thought process congruent to the Spyderco Warrior design. I thought it quite humorous then and after reading this thread I still find it innocently funny.
One certainly does not need a Spyderco Warrior to effectively behead either a living being (i.e. hostage) or corpse (as was done by the ancient Samurai. In the first example one only need view the beheadings carried out by AQ and posted on YouTube regarding technique and available cutlery. In the second example the taking of a head after battle was a two part method involving both the cutting of the throat to the spine and then sawing through the spine to release the trophy.
That Mr. Rafaeli teaches a throat cutting technique using the serration on the Spyderco Warrior is, in my professional training and experience, neither here nor there.
It is my understanding, perhaps more importantly, that Mr. Rafaeli was also hopeful the Spyderco Warrior could find its way into the Israeli intelligence services as well as Israel's Tier One counter terrorist unit(s) as an issue item. I don't know that this occurred given the knife would necessarily have to be sterile of all markings (source of origin) which, in the AMK/REKAT/Spyderco variations would be a moot point given the physical presentation of the knife is so unique it would be immediately identified upon being discovered, found or captured.
The "sawtooth" design on both the AMK and REKAT Warriors was specific in design and selection. Much like the sawtooth feature on Vietnam era Randall's Model 18 surivial fixed blade (meant to and tested on UH1H ("Huey") helicopter "skin" and meant to be able to rip, not saw, out of or in to the airframe for emergency purposes. I was trained by Bob Taylor and Randy Wanner at a now long past Soldier of Fortune convention in the use of the AMK Warrior. The sawtooth feature was envisioned to assist in trapping techniques as well as to rip, not saw through difficult clothing (i.e. leather jacket) and to enhance both reverse grip slashing wounds as well as thrusts and retraction of the blade after such thrusts.
Bob used a pole (wood, as I recall) as a dynamic object when "sparring" with the Warrior armed student during training. The damage done to the pole by both the conventional edge and, more significantly, the sawtooth feature proved his point quite nicely. However, it was Master Wanner whose incorporation of the Warrior into his fighting system (Hwa Rang Do) was truly impressive. No one knows more about this design and how to effectively use it than Randy, period.
Silenced firearms are but other weapons systems in the armory for, among other things, engaging a sentry when the situation allows for their being so engaged...or if you are fortunate to have a silenced weapons system. In El Salvador in the early 1980s, for example, we did not have such systems to arm and train and then see fielded to the Salvadoran special operations units. So, we taught what they already knew pretty well how to do. Use a knife or short bladed machete. The Kurd Pesh Merga I worked with in Baghdad and northern Kurdistan were gifted beyond belief with their traditional small fixed blade knife when it came to sentry removal. However, they were far more proud of their ability to slit throats, many throats, in Iraqi military camps leaving the corpses to be found in the morning than "taking out" a sentry.
As for the commentary regarding Michael D. Echanis - please see the following link regarding the truth about Mike to include his death -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Echanis. I've been blessed over the past year and a half to learn more about Echanis than anyone other than his family and those he actually worked for and with at Bragg, Little Creek and finally Nicaragua. Read and learn - the ravaging of MDE's legacy and corpse by far too many "experts" is officially over.
I recall watching a YouTube video where Kristy did offer the beheading thought process congruent to the Spyderco Warrior design. I thought it quite humorous then and after reading this thread I still find it innocently funny.
One certainly does not need a Spyderco Warrior to effectively behead either a living being (i.e. hostage) or corpse (as was done by the ancient Samurai. In the first example one only need view the beheadings carried out by AQ and posted on YouTube regarding technique and available cutlery. In the second example the taking of a head after battle was a two part method involving both the cutting of the throat to the spine and then sawing through the spine to release the trophy.
That Mr. Rafaeli teaches a throat cutting technique using the serration on the Spyderco Warrior is, in my professional training and experience, neither here nor there.
It is my understanding, perhaps more importantly, that Mr. Rafaeli was also hopeful the Spyderco Warrior could find its way into the Israeli intelligence services as well as Israel's Tier One counter terrorist unit(s) as an issue item. I don't know that this occurred given the knife would necessarily have to be sterile of all markings (source of origin) which, in the AMK/REKAT/Spyderco variations would be a moot point given the physical presentation of the knife is so unique it would be immediately identified upon being discovered, found or captured.
The "sawtooth" design on both the AMK and REKAT Warriors was specific in design and selection. Much like the sawtooth feature on Vietnam era Randall's Model 18 surivial fixed blade (meant to and tested on UH1H ("Huey") helicopter "skin" and meant to be able to rip, not saw, out of or in to the airframe for emergency purposes. I was trained by Bob Taylor and Randy Wanner at a now long past Soldier of Fortune convention in the use of the AMK Warrior. The sawtooth feature was envisioned to assist in trapping techniques as well as to rip, not saw through difficult clothing (i.e. leather jacket) and to enhance both reverse grip slashing wounds as well as thrusts and retraction of the blade after such thrusts.
Bob used a pole (wood, as I recall) as a dynamic object when "sparring" with the Warrior armed student during training. The damage done to the pole by both the conventional edge and, more significantly, the sawtooth feature proved his point quite nicely. However, it was Master Wanner whose incorporation of the Warrior into his fighting system (Hwa Rang Do) was truly impressive. No one knows more about this design and how to effectively use it than Randy, period.
Silenced firearms are but other weapons systems in the armory for, among other things, engaging a sentry when the situation allows for their being so engaged...or if you are fortunate to have a silenced weapons system. In El Salvador in the early 1980s, for example, we did not have such systems to arm and train and then see fielded to the Salvadoran special operations units. So, we taught what they already knew pretty well how to do. Use a knife or short bladed machete. The Kurd Pesh Merga I worked with in Baghdad and northern Kurdistan were gifted beyond belief with their traditional small fixed blade knife when it came to sentry removal. However, they were far more proud of their ability to slit throats, many throats, in Iraqi military camps leaving the corpses to be found in the morning than "taking out" a sentry.
As for the commentary regarding Michael D. Echanis - please see the following link regarding the truth about Mike to include his death -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Echanis. I've been blessed over the past year and a half to learn more about Echanis than anyone other than his family and those he actually worked for and with at Bragg, Little Creek and finally Nicaragua. Read and learn - the ravaging of MDE's legacy and corpse by far too many "experts" is officially over.
GW
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
MJ's own YouTube vid regarding the Spyderco Warrior is very specific regarding the "why" behind the serration feature for this variation of the Wanner Warrior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fy2bTUJxio
Also missing from the Spyderco Warrior is the hex butt cap (which no one ever really mentions from the current generation of "Warrior" buffs).
The hex butt cap was specific in design and application. It was meant to provide an effective impact feature for the knife during H2H engagements.
The hex design allowed for both an extremely tough impact platform to create blunt trauma injuries and the hex design provided individual blunt "edges" for scrapping techniques using the pommel of the knife.
Hwa Rang Do - of which Master Randy Wanner was for many years the art's star American born instructor - is very specific in its bone breaking techniques (i.e. In Echanis' last published book, "Basic Stick Fighting for Combat", Chapter 3 focuses on the snapping short stick or "bone breaker" as used in HWD. Randy Wanner provides the introduction to the subject and he / Chuck Sanders are shown demonstrating selected techniques using the "snapping stick" to shatter the bones of the attacker).
Wanner built in a bone breaking feature via the hex shaped steel pommel of the original Warrior design as produced first by Al Mar with follow on by Bob Taylor at REKAT.
Again, having trained with Randy at SOF and talking with him both before and after - then interviewing him at length in Coronado, California, during a training video shoot with he and Bob Taylor - I can attest the above is accurate and correct.
What is completely overlooked with the original Warrior design and thought process is that it was a specific martial art centric knife design, per Randy Wanner.
In order to even use it marginally well one would need to be trained in HWD to a certain level of understanding and proficiency where knife strategy, tactics and techniques were concerned AND in the use of the HWD impact weapons such as the baton and short stick. An understanding of basic human anatomy - again as taught by HWD instructors - was also needed to truly become proficient.
Otherwise the "Warrior" is just another knife in the hands of the average Joe regardless of evolution / features / design / providing source.
As I wrote in my chapter on the AMK Warrior in "Battle Blades" circa 1993 (Paladin Press) Mike Echanis ONLY offered, according to Randy Wanner who I interviewed for the chapter, Randy's knife would be perhaps more useful with a serration feature. This based on Mike's own training and experience with Gerber's Mark II dagger and his extensive experience as a hunter, angler and outdoorsman growing up in eastern Oregon.
Not included in that chapter was Randy's recollection that Echanis had no (read: zero) interest in the knife project at the time. This was Randy's baby, from start to finish. Echanis, only freshly recovered / rehabilitated after five years' of care and treatment from his gunshot wounds in Vietnam, was teaching/training Special Forces, Navy SEALs, Navy Frogmen (UDT). All of this was leading up to his employment by the NIC government - with the blessing of the US behind the diplomatic scenes - and then to first and foremost assist in the conduct of intelligence operations against the Sandinista guerrilla forces and other enemies of then President Somoza.
MDE was quite happy with his personal preference of the Gerber Mark I and Mark II H2H knives (I located one of Mike's personal Mark I's in Florida during my research of Mike's life and passing. It is well cared for, highly prized and has a great story to it). He had no interest in Wanner's project and in the kindest of ways. He just didn't have the time nor energy nor need to put his name on someone else's knife.
Randy would write a single article for SOF after Mike's death. It appeared in the October 1980 issue and is titled "Circle of Stealth - Echanis' Revolutionary Sentry Removal Technique". This is the only public article I've found to date that shows Randy using a custom made Wanner Warrior. In only one caption does "Echanis warrior knife" appear to identify the knife Randy is using. Where Randy did, in writing, approach the Echanis Family and offer he and Bob Taylor wanted to do an Echanis commemorative knife to honor Mike - the family declined (read: did not respond) even after several phone calls from Bob to Mrs. Echanis.
Most importantly given this discussion thread - Wanner is specific in describing it is correct MOTION and MOMENTUM that he and Echanis were studying, testing and refining when it came to bladework / sentry take-outs. Here are the two key captions -
1. At first contact, crossgrab right-rear quarter of target's head and jerk around and down at 40-degree angle. Step under the direction of the target's fall.
2. Twisted neck exposes carotid artery to blade. Target will fall in director of attacker's discretion because of neck manipulation. Drive hand holding knife in opposite direction of falling target. Curve of the blade on 'Echanis warrior knife' draws it deeper into the exposed area."
Note: The edge applied in the photographs is the conventional curved edge and NOT the sawtooth feature for the purpose of Randy's instruction.
In short, a knife is just a knife is just a knife unless you have the training and experience to make something special perform as such.
The Spyderco Warrior is unique to Spyderco and is a nice bit of kit.
But it has nothing to do with Mike Echanis nor even Randy Wanner.
And it's "instruction" in the current form coming from anyone else does not reflect Master Wanner's HWD expertise nor his and Mike's intensive study/training regarding sentry take-outs.
Anything else is marketing and advertising and hitching a ride on someone else's star.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fy2bTUJxio
Also missing from the Spyderco Warrior is the hex butt cap (which no one ever really mentions from the current generation of "Warrior" buffs).
The hex butt cap was specific in design and application. It was meant to provide an effective impact feature for the knife during H2H engagements.
The hex design allowed for both an extremely tough impact platform to create blunt trauma injuries and the hex design provided individual blunt "edges" for scrapping techniques using the pommel of the knife.
Hwa Rang Do - of which Master Randy Wanner was for many years the art's star American born instructor - is very specific in its bone breaking techniques (i.e. In Echanis' last published book, "Basic Stick Fighting for Combat", Chapter 3 focuses on the snapping short stick or "bone breaker" as used in HWD. Randy Wanner provides the introduction to the subject and he / Chuck Sanders are shown demonstrating selected techniques using the "snapping stick" to shatter the bones of the attacker).
Wanner built in a bone breaking feature via the hex shaped steel pommel of the original Warrior design as produced first by Al Mar with follow on by Bob Taylor at REKAT.
Again, having trained with Randy at SOF and talking with him both before and after - then interviewing him at length in Coronado, California, during a training video shoot with he and Bob Taylor - I can attest the above is accurate and correct.
What is completely overlooked with the original Warrior design and thought process is that it was a specific martial art centric knife design, per Randy Wanner.
In order to even use it marginally well one would need to be trained in HWD to a certain level of understanding and proficiency where knife strategy, tactics and techniques were concerned AND in the use of the HWD impact weapons such as the baton and short stick. An understanding of basic human anatomy - again as taught by HWD instructors - was also needed to truly become proficient.
Otherwise the "Warrior" is just another knife in the hands of the average Joe regardless of evolution / features / design / providing source.
As I wrote in my chapter on the AMK Warrior in "Battle Blades" circa 1993 (Paladin Press) Mike Echanis ONLY offered, according to Randy Wanner who I interviewed for the chapter, Randy's knife would be perhaps more useful with a serration feature. This based on Mike's own training and experience with Gerber's Mark II dagger and his extensive experience as a hunter, angler and outdoorsman growing up in eastern Oregon.
Not included in that chapter was Randy's recollection that Echanis had no (read: zero) interest in the knife project at the time. This was Randy's baby, from start to finish. Echanis, only freshly recovered / rehabilitated after five years' of care and treatment from his gunshot wounds in Vietnam, was teaching/training Special Forces, Navy SEALs, Navy Frogmen (UDT). All of this was leading up to his employment by the NIC government - with the blessing of the US behind the diplomatic scenes - and then to first and foremost assist in the conduct of intelligence operations against the Sandinista guerrilla forces and other enemies of then President Somoza.
MDE was quite happy with his personal preference of the Gerber Mark I and Mark II H2H knives (I located one of Mike's personal Mark I's in Florida during my research of Mike's life and passing. It is well cared for, highly prized and has a great story to it). He had no interest in Wanner's project and in the kindest of ways. He just didn't have the time nor energy nor need to put his name on someone else's knife.
Randy would write a single article for SOF after Mike's death. It appeared in the October 1980 issue and is titled "Circle of Stealth - Echanis' Revolutionary Sentry Removal Technique". This is the only public article I've found to date that shows Randy using a custom made Wanner Warrior. In only one caption does "Echanis warrior knife" appear to identify the knife Randy is using. Where Randy did, in writing, approach the Echanis Family and offer he and Bob Taylor wanted to do an Echanis commemorative knife to honor Mike - the family declined (read: did not respond) even after several phone calls from Bob to Mrs. Echanis.
Most importantly given this discussion thread - Wanner is specific in describing it is correct MOTION and MOMENTUM that he and Echanis were studying, testing and refining when it came to bladework / sentry take-outs. Here are the two key captions -
1. At first contact, crossgrab right-rear quarter of target's head and jerk around and down at 40-degree angle. Step under the direction of the target's fall.
2. Twisted neck exposes carotid artery to blade. Target will fall in director of attacker's discretion because of neck manipulation. Drive hand holding knife in opposite direction of falling target. Curve of the blade on 'Echanis warrior knife' draws it deeper into the exposed area."
Note: The edge applied in the photographs is the conventional curved edge and NOT the sawtooth feature for the purpose of Randy's instruction.
In short, a knife is just a knife is just a knife unless you have the training and experience to make something special perform as such.
The Spyderco Warrior is unique to Spyderco and is a nice bit of kit.
But it has nothing to do with Mike Echanis nor even Randy Wanner.
And it's "instruction" in the current form coming from anyone else does not reflect Master Wanner's HWD expertise nor his and Mike's intensive study/training regarding sentry take-outs.
Anything else is marketing and advertising and hitching a ride on someone else's star.
GW
-
twinboysdad
- Member
- Posts: 3728
- Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:23 pm
-
ginsuwarrior
- Member
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:59 pm
- Location: Virginia Mountains
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Thanks. Frankly, I don't even know why - and I've talked with Bob Taylor about this both by phone and in person - so much editorial content was deemed important in the Spyderco Warrior booklet by MJ.ginsuwarrior wrote:Wow, Greg that actually was a fascinating read. Thanks for taking the time to write that.
It had already been published in 1993 that MDE had no meaningful role in the knife. This up to the point of Al Mar agreeing to bring it into a production version - and at considerable cost to Al Mar Knives (the grip mold alone cost Al $20,000 - a huge amount of money to invest in a specialty knife design with limited market potential) - at the time only AMK would even consider such a project and primarily because Al saw it as a creative challenge for his design acumen.
I know. I was there.
If anything the S booklet might have simply stated "As per pre-published accounts Michael D. Echanis, close friend, student and confidant of the Warrior design's proponent, Hwa Rang Do Master Randy Wanner, had nothing to do with the original design."
Again, IMHO, Echanis was simply a "hook" to generate interest in the newly conceived rendition of Wanner's design. I do not attribute this thought process to Sal. Mike Echanis was "sexy". Bob Taylor, Randy Wanner and the cat from Israel were not. MDE was also an easy target. He'd been dead since 1978. You could write what you wanted and not be challenged.
That today has changed.
Where Master Wanner did co-agree royalties from the S project (in specific) should be donated to the benevolent organization noted in the booklet, he likewise chose to have nothing to do with the project to include any form of personal endorsement.
Bob Taylor was correct to ensure the evolution of the design was documented from his end and to the degree he was able to.
As I have stated in another thread on the Spyderco Warrior I have purchased one, inspected it and for what it is it's a very nice Spyderco product...except the sheath sucked :) .
It is simply not possible to sheath a curved blade using a plastic insert as the primary housing. Al knew this from the onset of the AMK Warrior. Hence the very expensive (even at the time) all leather shaped sheath AMK provided. Yes, today you can Kydex the knife and do so nicely. However, Kydex is not a quiet sheath material and in today's warfare - and its environments - quiet is good and silent is better. Sheath the Spyderco Warrior in an all leather custom carrier for a few hundred bucks and you've got a nice package in the real world.
My S-Warrior was given to my best and closest friend and comrade in arms for now over 25 years. He understands the design inside and out and he's carrying it overseas now. His favored Spider Knife, for both civilian and military carry / application is the CIVILIAN. I concur. The CIVILIAN is Spyderco's flagship of intense H2H bladeware, period. Sal knows I love it for this reason - there is no more serious folding knife on the market than the CIV and if you actually know how to use it...Form and Function Personified.
Al Mar would have approved.
GW
-
phillipsted
- Member
- Posts: 3674
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:30 am
- Location: North Virginia
-
phillipsted
- Member
- Posts: 3674
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:30 am
- Location: North Virginia
I concur that the Warrior is a purpose-built tool designed for specific applications. And given the need to develop proficiency for it to be effective - I'm kinda surprised that there isn't a matching red-handled Warrior trainer.
It was discussed a few years ago in this thread...
TedP
It was discussed a few years ago in this thread...
TedP
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3026
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Paul is exactly correct. Thanks, Paul, for pointing that out. Similarly, there is no YouTube video in which Kristi made any statements about the Warrior, nor has there ever been. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY YouTube videos of Kristi. She's camera shy.The Deacon wrote:Link to the original thread on this subject which contains one to the WIRED story that StumbledUpon stumbled upon. WIRED got it wrong, StumbledUpon merely repeated their error.
Stay safe,
Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Mike - I may be mistaken but that's my recollection - I'd have no reason to offer otherwise.
However, if in error or not, the fellow who jumped all over the beheading comment truly made more of it than was necessary or warranted and that was my primary point. If I am wrong about my recollection than I certainly apologize to Kristy.
Your YouTube clip and explanation of the serration was spot on. That's why I inserted the link.
Again, overall, the Spyderco rendition of the Warrior is a solid piece of kit. If it were not I'd never have sent it overseas where it is now with my closest friend and SF brother.
Greg
However, if in error or not, the fellow who jumped all over the beheading comment truly made more of it than was necessary or warranted and that was my primary point. If I am wrong about my recollection than I certainly apologize to Kristy.
Your YouTube clip and explanation of the serration was spot on. That's why I inserted the link.
Again, overall, the Spyderco rendition of the Warrior is a solid piece of kit. If it were not I'd never have sent it overseas where it is now with my closest friend and SF brother.
Greg
GW
-
demoncase
- Member
- Posts: 2596
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:07 am
- Location: England- Wolverhampton
- Contact:
Some people have no idea.
We live in a world where the original Gerber Mk2 was banned from sales at the PX because it was an 'evil assassination weapon'
Gerber added the serrations and called it a survival tool, and all was well. The same length and steel double edged blade with 3-4" of serrations at the back end of the blade is less deadly? :rolleyes:
We live in a world where the original Gerber Mk2 was banned from sales at the PX because it was an 'evil assassination weapon'
Gerber added the serrations and called it a survival tool, and all was well. The same length and steel double edged blade with 3-4" of serrations at the back end of the blade is less deadly? :rolleyes:
Warhammer 40000 is- basically- Lord Of The Rings on a cocktail of every drug known to man and genuine lunar dust, stuck in a blender with Alien, Mechwarrior, Dune, Starship Troopers, Fahrenheit 451 and Star Wars, bathed in blood, turned up to eleventy billion, set on fire, and catapulted off into space screaming "WAAAGH!" and waving a chainsaw sword- without the happy ending.
https://www.instagram.com/commissarcainscoffeecup/
https://www.instagram.com/commissarcainscoffeecup/
We thought to provide as much info as possible. Bob was quite helpful and also wanted to get the record straight.Greg Walker wrote: Thanks. Frankly, I don't even know why - and I've talked with Bob Taylor about this both by phone and in person - so much editorial content was deemed important in the Spyderco Warrior booklet by MJ.
When We went to see Bob, we also thought that MDE had designed the knife. Bob was like a history teacher on the evolution of the model. He did go into detail as to what suggestions were made by MDE on the design. But mostly he spoke of Randy. He wanted the record to include Randy because he was the driving force in the concept.Greg Walker wrote: If anything the S booklet might have simply stated "As per pre-published accounts Michael D. Echanis, close friend, student and confidant of the Warrior design's proponent, Hwa Rang Do Master Randy Wanner, had nothing to do with the original design."
I don't think that Echanis' name was used as a "hook" for anything. He was part of the story and we all felt that to say less than we did would not be complete. Bob's goal was to get the info out and down on paper. I felt that the history and evolution would be interesting. Michael's efforts in the book are obvious. We could have easily sold the knife with no book. I'm surprised that you would think that of us.Greg Walker wrote: Again, IMHO, Echanis was simply a "hook" to generate interest in the newly conceived rendition of Wanner's design. I do not attribute this thought process to Sal. Mike Echanis was "sexy". Bob Taylor, Randy Wanner and the cat from Israel were not. MDE was also an easy target. He'd been dead since 1978. You could write what you wanted and not be challenged.
Actually, the royalty direction was Bob's idea. I don't think that Randy wanted anything to do with the project. He wouldn't speak with Bob about it. I didn't get to speak with Randy at all, though I'd be honored to speak with him if given the opportunity. Bob, Mike and I felt that Randy should be given credit for his part in the development of the model and we tried to keep it as accurate as possible.Greg Walker wrote: Where Master Wanner did co-agree royalties from the S project (in specific) should be donated to the benevolent organization noted in the booklet, he likewise chose to have nothing to do with the project to include any form of personal endorsement.
Perhaps Randy thought that the sole purpose of the project was profit motivated? He probably doesn't know much about Spyderco. I saw it as a way to keep alive a special blade concept (genius really) worthy of the effort and expense. We're reprinting the book to include Bob's Pygmy Warrior, which is scheduled to begin shipping this year and the Warrior booklet will be included with the Pygmy as well.
Thanx for the kind comments. We are working on a new sheath. Not finalized yet.Greg Walker wrote: Bob Taylor was correct to ensure the evolution of the design was documented from his end and to the degree he was able to.
As I have stated in another thread on the Spyderco Warrior I have purchased one, inspected it and for what it is it's a very nice Spyderco product...except the sheath sucked :) .
It is simply not possible to sheath a curved blade using a plastic insert as the primary housing. Al knew this from the onset of the AMK Warrior. Hence the very expensive (even at the time) all leather shaped sheath AMK provided. Yes, today you can Kydex the knife and do so nicely. However, Kydex is not a quiet sheath material and in today's warfare - and its environments - quiet is good and silent is better. Sheath the Spyderco Warrior in an all leather custom carrier for a few hundred bucks and you've got a nice package in the real world.
My S-Warrior was given to my best and closest friend and comrade in arms for now over 25 years. He understands the design inside and out and he's carrying it overseas now. His favored Spider Knife, for both civilian and military carry / application is the CIVILIAN. I concur. The CIVILIAN is Spyderco's flagship of intense H2H bladeware, period. Sal knows I love it for this reason - there is no more serious folding knife on the market than the CIV and if you actually know how to use it...Form and Function Personified.
Al Mar would have approved.
sal
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Sal -
Absolutely enjoyed the opportunity to visit with you today at Spyderco! Thank you so much for making time for Carol and me.
Also pleased we were able to compare notes reference Echanis. As shared, I've been working closely with the Echanis Family for nearly 15 months now and have been blessed by their encouragement and assistance to set the record straight about their son and brother.
I'll get the issue of Black Belt to you this next week (August/September 2013) which I believe you'll find both interesting and helpful regarding MDE's journey as a VN era Wounded Warrior. Echanis' induction into the Black Belt Hall of Fame this year, another result of the past year's work, will be announced in the issue going on the stands in about 2 weeks - I'll ensure you have a copy of that, as well.
It would make a nice editorial update to the Spyderco Warrior booklet when you reprint :D .
Again, wonderful to have seen and visited with you today. I love Spyderco Headquarters. Thanks for the BandAid, too! :)
Absolutely enjoyed the opportunity to visit with you today at Spyderco! Thank you so much for making time for Carol and me.
Also pleased we were able to compare notes reference Echanis. As shared, I've been working closely with the Echanis Family for nearly 15 months now and have been blessed by their encouragement and assistance to set the record straight about their son and brother.
I'll get the issue of Black Belt to you this next week (August/September 2013) which I believe you'll find both interesting and helpful regarding MDE's journey as a VN era Wounded Warrior. Echanis' induction into the Black Belt Hall of Fame this year, another result of the past year's work, will be announced in the issue going on the stands in about 2 weeks - I'll ensure you have a copy of that, as well.
It would make a nice editorial update to the Spyderco Warrior booklet when you reprint :D .
Again, wonderful to have seen and visited with you today. I love Spyderco Headquarters. Thanks for the BandAid, too! :)
GW
Thank you Mr. Walker for your insight and info on the topic.
I have a question regarding the sheath on the Al Mar warrior. Maybe MJ or Sal could enlighten me. If one would agree that the warrior was designed with RGEO in mind (I've understood that to be the case, but I may be mistaken), why are the earlier sheaths not set up to draw in such a manner? Is it just one of those things that was miscommunicated during the manufacturing process? Just something about which I was curious.
My warriors
Edit: it is setup for such a draw if the user is left handed.
I have a question regarding the sheath on the Al Mar warrior. Maybe MJ or Sal could enlighten me. If one would agree that the warrior was designed with RGEO in mind (I've understood that to be the case, but I may be mistaken), why are the earlier sheaths not set up to draw in such a manner? Is it just one of those things that was miscommunicated during the manufacturing process? Just something about which I was curious.
My warriors
Edit: it is setup for such a draw if the user is left handed.
-
Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
To the best of my recollection regarding how/why Al (Mar) sheathed the AMK Warrior as he did...
Everything at the time about seeing the Warrior become a specialty production knife was both very complicated and very expensive.
So much so that Al's recommendation to Randy Wanner as well as to Bob Taylor was that everyone "sit" on production plans until the tooling and manufacturing capability able to produce the knife to the high standards of AMK / Wanner / Taylor could evolve from where they were when the knife design was first brought to Al for consideration.
Sheathwise AMK had established a wonderful reputation for using leather from a close friend and world class leather maker for Al's fixed blade knives. Al's primary concern with the Warrior was that its sheath be extremely durable/safe to carry the knife in, secure during carry, effortless to withdraw (especially with the curved blade and very aggressive "sawtooth" pattern which could rip into the upper forward lip of the sheath if snatched swiftly and canted forward during the draw) and handsome to the eye.
Remember, everything to Al where design was concerned was "Form and Function". The AMK Warrior would reflect no less.
Al did not envision the Edge Up for the Warrior in its sheath. Again, Mar had achieved Black Belt status as a judoka and was likewise an accomplished student of Kendo, the Japanese art of the sword. Whereas the sword is traditionally carried in an edge up position at the belt Mar did not carry this thought process over to any of his fixed blade knives to include the Tanken / Shugoto series.
An Edge Up thought process was likewise not considered by Wanner / Taylor at the time.
The AMK Warrior was meant to be drawn up and out of its all-leather sheath. Intent at the moment as well as grip (forward or reverse with the possible variations allowed by the Warrior's very specific grip pattern and finger reliefs) executed by the user via studied grip manipulation upon the draw being completed.
A custom order traditional sheath for the AMK Warrior could be placed with AMK for left handed users if they requested it. This was on a case by case basis and availble when the Tex S could fit such a special order in with everything else he was making.
Your picture is excellent. I am reminded of why the double guard was originally canted rearward on the early Wanner custom made knives and then on the AMK production version. The double rearward guard ensured the hand was locked onto the grip and unable to slide forward during hard or extreme contact with a target...or by sheer accident during handling. This feature was so effective that Bob Taylor used to delight in demonstrating its usefulness. He would dip a Warrior in STP completely covering it. Then, in front of an audience, Taylor would drive the drive through an old tire.
His hand never slipped forward of the reverse double guard and the knife always punctured the tire cleanly and fully. The overall combinaton of a textured grip with finger relief platforms and the reversed double guard (which is substantial) made such an extreme and potentially limb threatening test possible. In my professional opinion I don't believe the less "beefy" forward double guard of the S-Warrior combined with a hard textured grip would see the same end result - meaning full penetration of the blade through the density of a car tire AND an uninjured to any degree hand with all of its fingers still in place.
I trust the above is helpful :)
DO NOT try this with the current forward double guard on the Spyderco Warrior.
Everything at the time about seeing the Warrior become a specialty production knife was both very complicated and very expensive.
So much so that Al's recommendation to Randy Wanner as well as to Bob Taylor was that everyone "sit" on production plans until the tooling and manufacturing capability able to produce the knife to the high standards of AMK / Wanner / Taylor could evolve from where they were when the knife design was first brought to Al for consideration.
Sheathwise AMK had established a wonderful reputation for using leather from a close friend and world class leather maker for Al's fixed blade knives. Al's primary concern with the Warrior was that its sheath be extremely durable/safe to carry the knife in, secure during carry, effortless to withdraw (especially with the curved blade and very aggressive "sawtooth" pattern which could rip into the upper forward lip of the sheath if snatched swiftly and canted forward during the draw) and handsome to the eye.
Remember, everything to Al where design was concerned was "Form and Function". The AMK Warrior would reflect no less.
Al did not envision the Edge Up for the Warrior in its sheath. Again, Mar had achieved Black Belt status as a judoka and was likewise an accomplished student of Kendo, the Japanese art of the sword. Whereas the sword is traditionally carried in an edge up position at the belt Mar did not carry this thought process over to any of his fixed blade knives to include the Tanken / Shugoto series.
An Edge Up thought process was likewise not considered by Wanner / Taylor at the time.
The AMK Warrior was meant to be drawn up and out of its all-leather sheath. Intent at the moment as well as grip (forward or reverse with the possible variations allowed by the Warrior's very specific grip pattern and finger reliefs) executed by the user via studied grip manipulation upon the draw being completed.
A custom order traditional sheath for the AMK Warrior could be placed with AMK for left handed users if they requested it. This was on a case by case basis and availble when the Tex S could fit such a special order in with everything else he was making.
Your picture is excellent. I am reminded of why the double guard was originally canted rearward on the early Wanner custom made knives and then on the AMK production version. The double rearward guard ensured the hand was locked onto the grip and unable to slide forward during hard or extreme contact with a target...or by sheer accident during handling. This feature was so effective that Bob Taylor used to delight in demonstrating its usefulness. He would dip a Warrior in STP completely covering it. Then, in front of an audience, Taylor would drive the drive through an old tire.
His hand never slipped forward of the reverse double guard and the knife always punctured the tire cleanly and fully. The overall combinaton of a textured grip with finger relief platforms and the reversed double guard (which is substantial) made such an extreme and potentially limb threatening test possible. In my professional opinion I don't believe the less "beefy" forward double guard of the S-Warrior combined with a hard textured grip would see the same end result - meaning full penetration of the blade through the density of a car tire AND an uninjured to any degree hand with all of its fingers still in place.
I trust the above is helpful :)
DO NOT try this with the current forward double guard on the Spyderco Warrior.
GW