What does “ergonomic” mean to you?

[Bolster]

Let’s talk about the other end of a folding knife. What elements of handle design do you seek? What says “ergonomic” to you?

Spyderco is widely praised for its folder ergonomics, but the individual elements of what makes a design “ergonomic” are seldom specified, much less agreed upon. During my years on the forum I’ve seen many a knife’s ergos praised by half the forum and avoided by the other half. The topic is individualistic and opinion-based, but still worthy of discussion. There must be a wide variety of answers for what, in particular, makes a handle ergonomic for a person, so I’d like to delve in, and hear yours.

I’m interested in specificity. Can you break it down? What elements do you like, which do you avoid? I have watched with interest the aftermarketers making scales of different shapes, which seem to be popular, but often more neutral than the originals, sometimes smaller or thinner, and seldom larger or more curvey. Please include the feel of the knife in your pocket as part of folder ergonomics…that’s the ergonomics against your leg, after all!

Since ergonomics is a personal and individual thing, please state your own preferences and dislikes. I’m politely asking that you not waste time telling someone else their preferences are “wrong.” There’s no disputing of preferences—De gustibus non est disputandum.

[Bolster]

I’ll start. “Ergonomic” to Bolster means:

A prominent but comfortable guard. If it’s an index-finger-choiled knife, then a well-curved choil, preferably with a nub at the front of it. Primary rule for me is, I don’t want my index finger slipping foward, and I like the secure feel of something that stops a forward sliding movement. Love the guard area of the Manix & Amalgam. Don’t own a Shaman but can tell I’d like the choil. Sold my Lum quickly. Am very cautious with my Gayle Bradley Air. Prefer the deeper choil of the Stretch 2 to the Stretch 1 (…with apologies to Wartstein, who very much goes the opposite direction on the Stretch, and prefers a “flatter” choil, which he says gives him more control.)

Index finger as close as safely and comfortably possible to the heel of the blade, especially on handle forward designs. This is generally not an issue with a finger-choiled knife since it’s easy to choke up. You might argue this isn’t an “ergo” issue but I think it is, because it affects grip. Example: the Barong is a knife I’ve avoided because the heel of the blade is so far away from the index finger, when held behind the guard (yes, I know, on the Barong you can choke up on the flat part of the ricasso, but then I have a concern about the index finger sliding forward.) The Bradley 2 and Goddard are also distant. “Kick” designs tend to put the heel of the blade further from the grip, which may be fine for large slashing movements (cutting up cardboard) but not ideal for fine work (stripping a wire, carving, fine paring), the latter of which I often need.

The area under the index finger (guard/ricasso/choil/front of handle) needs to fit the curve of the index finger, and for me that’s .8-.9” diameter. Manix, Native, Caly, Sage, Persian, Junior, UKPK, all good. The gentle, sloping curves and large radius of the Salt, D’Allara, Caribbean, YoJumbo, Drunken, and especally the Roc don’t work for me. Gives me a hot spot on the index finger, and my index and middle fingers restlessly hunt for the 'right' position. Mules have the large radius (designed for people with very large fingers?) and I always re-radius my user mules. When re-radiused, the guard area of my mules look more like an Endura and less like a Delica—a tighter radius and a more abrupt guard area. * See attached photo.

A handle I can get my fingers all the way around. I like the tips of several fingers touching my palm. One reason I'm a fan of Perrin designs, which even allow the index finger to (almost) wrap. Not a fan of big palm swells. Not a fan of exceptionally tall or wide handles. I admit that wide handles can be comfortable, but for me they often feel less secure and less precise in use, and take up precious pocket real estate, which is where my pocket knife spends 95% of its time. (Hopefully this discussion doesn’t devolve into yet another juvenile “my hand is bigger than yours” discussion, because ergos are about much more than just the size of one’s hand. OK, OK, I wear L to XL gloves but still avoid fat handles.) For example, although I own a Stretch 1 and a Stretch 2, they seldom get carried because the pregnant palm swell is uncomfortably abrupt and intrusive (for me--others love it).

Flat scales. Yes, flat scales! Because they feel so much better in the pocket. A flat knife will get carried, and a contoured, tubular, or swell-sided knife, which feels good in the hand, will stay in the sock drawer because it's uncomfortable in the pocket.

Finger grooves or neutral handle? I have never been able to form a justifiable opinion here. The comfortable handles of the Bradley 2 and Spyopera are relatively neutral. The comfortable grip of the Manix is not neutral. (Shrug.) Too many bumps, scallops, and peaks in the handle can get in the way of how I want to hold the knife. I guess I tend to go for a more neutral handle, except that some of the curvacious handles, like the Manix, fit great...so then I'm contradicting myself. (Shrug.) I definitely like the top rear of the handle (the 'butt') to curve away from the line of the spine, as many Spydercos do--for example, the Manix, which looks like a Manx cat, the way the butt tucks in and under. That really helps with orientation of the blade for me.

^ Just one man’s opinion. No right or wrong about it. What are your preferences? What ergonomic design decisions either attract or repel you from a handle?

[Vamais]

Thank you for this thread, Bolster. I'll have to think about this for a bit before sitting down to type out a thoughtful response.

[Netherend]

It is about intuitive design and accessibility . For me it means that it feels naturally comfortable and secure in hand. I do not want to think about how I am holding the knife when I need to use it. I want a knife that feels like part of my hand. I should not even have to look at it to get a proper grip. It is a knife that I can hand to a non knife enthusiast and they will immediately feel comfortable and safe operating it in their hands.

[Tristan_david2001]

^ I really like that answer. To me the most intuitive pocket knives to use and hold in the hand are the Calys. No they’re objectively not the most ergonomic in the general knife category, like nothing really beats a full sized, 3d contoured/Coke bottle swell style fixed blade handle in the hand for when it comes to harder use. But for pocket carrying edc tools, I like thin, because they carry so well and are very easy to manipulate in the hand. mid lockback(the most ergonomic lock imo)..everything about them feels like optimal control, ease of operation, & versatile shape

[JSumm]

With everything knife related, I like variety. I like the Manix in hand and I like the neutral Rock Jumper in hand. I do favor one finger choil, but I prefer it not in the blade. Reason being, the handle is always wider than the blade and it just feels more comfortable to me. But I do prefer the security and control of that one finger choil. The Manix behind the blade choil would be an example. I do like deeper choils.

If there is a blade choil, I prefer wider and deeper. I prefer the Caly and Manix choil to that of the PM2 or Para 3. And the Shaman's choil is so great with that wide blade that it is my only exception to preferring a handle choil. And the nub. If you are going to have a blade choil, I love the nub. The Shaman nub. The UKPK nub over the Caly 3 no nub.

And speaking of the Delica. I made this comparison a couple of years ago. I prefer the Endela and Endura straighter drop on the guard.


Variety is great. When Sal and Eric are designing, I never have been disappointed and always pleasantly surprised.

[vivi]

When I grip the handle, it feels like it conforms to my hand instead of my hand conforming to it.

Some knives felt great in my grip from the first time I held them. C95 Manix and the Militsry are two examples.

Some knives I had to learn to like the handle. Cold Steel SR1, Spyderco Endura 4 and the Yojimbo 2 are some examples.

A big offender for my grip are thumb ramps. I think I like placing my thumb a bit more forward than most people, and that coupled with my totally average hand size means my thumb likes to land on the point at the end of many thumb ramps.

That issue makes it difficult for me to comfortably use Spydercos smaller than an Endura unless they have no hump. It's a big issue for me with Ken Onion designs.

I notice a lot of knives have handles designed so the user can pinch between their index finger and thumb. The Dragonfly is one example. Those types of grips often feel bad to me. I like having my thumb placed forward of my index finger, not stacked right above it.

Another thing I noticed I don't like are the first finger grooves on the endura and delica 4. they feel a little cramped for two fingers but get my hand a little further back than I'd like when I put just my index finger in them. I end up using the latter grip with my Pacific Salt 2's so my index and middle finger don't feel cramped and my thumb has more space behind the ramp.

This is one reason I like the Chief so much. It avoids all those thumb issues with no ramp, so I enjoy using the choil a lot more. On most Spydercos I put my thumb in front of the thumb ramp & opening hole when using the choil, like the Police.

[jwbnyc]

I prefer the more traditional forward points on the Delica, Endura, and Endela knives to the more relaxed Stetch 2 or the neutral scales of something like the Rockjumper, but it’s only a preference.

The more pronounced forward points lock either my first or second finger into position more securely, depending on whether I’m forward or backward on the handle, resulting in a more secure grip. Similarly, I like the rise on the Military knife family.

The Dragonfly curve works well for me as well, with or without the choil.

This is entirely down to hand size, mine being medium, but that’s, about 70% of the population, so expect those points work well for a lot of people.

I am not a fan of the “skinny” scales available on the aftermarket.

I like a tail hook with knives that are more relaxed or neutral, to aid in retention in hand.

I am agnostic on forward guards, although I have noticed that pronounced forward guards will interfere with cutting against a surface, such as a cutting board, wall, or floor.

I do not like when the blade is extended at the tang to act as a guard. Those are uncomfortable.

Forgot to add: nothing really beats the Signature knives in pocket for me. They are lower profile than some of the other Spydercos.

Also to add: clips are a wash. They do add a bit of security when deploying the knife.

[kennethsime]

I think a key difference is that a lot of people, including myself, are often talking about comfort when they talk about ergonomics. In reality, ergonomics refer to utility, not comfort.

The broomstick handle on a Kephart-style knife is a good example of something which is both very comfortable and very ergonomic for its intended use - long days of working with your hands.

A tactical knife, such as, say, a Benchmade Nimravus, is a great example of a knife which isn’t particularly comfortable in hand, but is very ergonomic in that you’ve got incredible traction in case you need to stab someone a lot.

I think the key, for me, is balance - especially in EDC knives. More and more these days, I like knives with neutral handles, with fewer hot spots, and less traction. I like Micarta a lot, but I think the chamfered + bidirectional textured FRN on the Seki knives is probably the best balance out there. The Stretch and the Rockjumper are probably my favorites, with the Dragonfly up next.

[SaltyCaribbeanDfly]

Like Jeff said I like variety too…choils/no choils, ramps/no ramps, jimping or not…from the Stretch to the Lil Temperance to the Delica to the Ladybug and everything in between…hope this helps

[jwbnyc]

I think a key difference is that a lot of people, including myself, are often talking about comfort when they talk about ergonomics. In reality, ergonomics refer to utility, not comfort.

The broomstick handle on a Kephart-style knife is a good example of something which is both very comfortable and very ergonomic for its intended use - long days of working with your hands.

A tactical knife, such as, say, a Benchmade Nimravus, is a great example of a knife which isn’t particularly comfortable in hand, but is very ergonomic in that you’ve got incredible traction in case you need to stab someone a lot.

I think the key, for me, is balance - especially in EDC knives. More and more these days, I like knives with neutral handles, with fewer hot spots, and less traction. I like Micarta a lot, but I think the chamfered + bidirectional textured FRN on the Seki knives is probably the best balance out there. The Stretch and the Rockjumper are probably my favorites, with the Dragonfly up next.

I understand what you’re saying, but a knife that is uncomfortable to hold is unlikely to be very ergonomic. People complain about the points on, say, the Delica, not lining up properly for them, so they are poking them in a bad way.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t say the Paramilitary 2 is very comfortable to hold, but it is secure as all get out. So, that’s a tough one. Flat scales index well. But, thin knives with flat scales tend to want to rotate in hand. Beveled edges are comfortable, but can also cause rotation in hand. Taller scales are good with gloves, but can make it more difficult to close the knife one-handed for people with smaller hands. Texturing can add security but some people find it to be too much sometimes. Oh, and then there’s lock types. Lots of variables here.

You kind of know what’s ergonomic when you feel it, as others have pointed out.

[ladybug93]

manix = ergonomics.

i've said it a handful of times on the forum in the past, but i'll explain again why i like the manix so much...

the forward finger choil, the secondary finger groove, the neutral swell for the ring and pinky fingers, and the gentle ramp of the manix all make for a very comfortable grip that makes the knife feel like an extension of my hand. this grip also puts the manix in a position to have a slight negative angle that lends to comfort in use as well. it's extremely comfortable for me, and i've never held another folder that fit my hand better. i judge the ergonomics of every knife in comparison to the manix, and for a long time, i just didn't want to buy anything that wasn't better.

another aspect of the manix that is often overlooked is the butt end of the handle. the manix basically comes to a point. i've heard some complain about this, saying it's uncomfortable and makes it feel like the knife will slip out of their hand. for me, since i grip the knife more forward, i don't feel this at all. in fact, the neutral swell of the manix is larger than that of the pm2, which feels too narrow under my ring and pinky fingers. anyway, the main appeal of the narrow rear end of the manix is the way it keeps a relatively wide pocket knife narrow at the top of the pocket when clipped. even though the manix can be a bit of a hog for some in the pocket, i find that it's narrow where it counts the most and allows my hand to get past it easily to access my phone.

now, with all that said, i have learned to get comfortable with many knives i don't find comfortable. the yojimbo was such an uncomfortable knife when i first held it that i found it extremely hard to believe that it's supposed to be gripped hard and used for self defense. it's got sharp edges and points all over the handle and narrows under my ring and pinky fingers more than any other knife i owned at the time. it's such a cool knife though that i learned to deal with the ergos that didn't work for me. since then, i have purchased and carried a lot of knives that i find far less comfortable than the manix, and learned to love them all. in some cases, it's about enjoying the art of the design. in others, it's about adjusting my usage expectations and appreciating a design for what it excels at. (i must be really tired... putting prepositions at the end of sentences)

it's wonderful when you find the one that works best for you, but you should never stop trying others with an open mind and learning how to make them work for you. if nothing else, it makes you think differently and use the tool differently. it gives you a different appreciation and understanding of other people in the community as well. never stop growing; even in the small things.

[sal]

Great thread Bolster.

sal

[Wartstein]

I´ll try and sum up my points and preferences concerning ergos later, but for now I just want to point out (once more..):

- Imo "ergos" is something that can only be experienced and judged when really using a knife.

Sometimes people appearantly just hold a new knife, then perhaps do one or two paper cuts and already make a final "ergo - decision".. I mean, one CAN do that if just holding and doing a few very light cuts at a time actually IS how one predominantly uses their knives.

But it might be a completely different story if a knife that feels good in hand when "just" holding it gets used over an extended period of time, or really hard, or both at the same time.

My prime examples are always :

- Native 5:
Feels amazing in my hand for a small knife when just holding it - but when I use it with a bit more force, it tends to get "unstable", and folders like Chaparral and Delica sit more stable in my hand. Something I would never have thought when just holding or very lightly using the three models.

- Manix 2 LW:
Great ergos in most realistic folder tasks (I am completely with Ladybug on this!) - but when I have to do really "super- hard" cutting, put a lot of force in the cut and "squeeze" the handle really tight: It suddenly starts to get uncomfortable, since the rather sharp edges of the handle dig into the palm (a more rounded Seki FRN knife feels better in such scenarios).
Does not really matter, cause I am talking about tasks I rarely ever perform with a folder anyway, and even in "normal-hard" use the Manix still feels good. But it underlines my point that real use might paint another picture than just holding a folder does.

[Bolster]

I´ll try and sum up my points and preferences concerning ergos later, ...

I'm going to hold you to that! I've been looking forward to your take on ergos. Hopefully it will be as detailed and thoughtful as always!

[Wartstein]

I´ll try and sum up my points and preferences concerning ergos later, ...

I'm going to hold you to that! I've been looking forward to your take on ergos. Hopefully it will be as detailed and thoughtful as always!

Thanks for putting it the way you did, Bolster... some might have rather said "rambly, redundant and unnecessarily long.."
/ I´ll sure share my thoughts later but also try to keep what I have to say as brief as possible.

[kennethsime]

I understand what you’re saying, but a knife that is uncomfortable to hold is unlikely to be very ergonomic. People complain about the points on, say, the Delica, not lining up properly for them, so they are poking them in a bad way.

The Delica is not comfortable for me, because of those points. but it sure is a very efficient work knife. I could open quite a few packages with it, but I hold it more like a Dragonfly than I do an Endura because of those points. I would call that ergonomic.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t say the Paramilitary 2 is very comfortable to hold, but it is secure as all get out. So, that’s a tough one. Flat scales index well. But, thin knives with flat scales tend to want to rotate in hand. Beveled edges are comfortable, but can also cause rotation in hand. Taller scales are good with gloves, but can make it more difficult to close the knife one-handed for people with smaller hands. Texturing can add security but some people find it to be too much sometimes. Oh, and then there’s lock types. Lots of variables here.

I think you illustrate the importance of picking the right tool for the right job.

Ergonomics relate to work, and the efficiency they provide the person performing that work. I hate to beat a dead horse, but: for making a fire, I’d take the Kephart, preferably with a nice convex grind. For getting stabby, a Nimravus - or maybe a Randall model 14 - or maybe an Applegate-Fairbairn - would be more ergonomic.



I thought this was a pretty interesting conversation on ergonomics.

[Pokey]

A knife with a 50/50 choil for my index finger, and a choil for my middle finger has a very ergo feel to it. With these my thumb naturally sits on the thumb ramp without having to rock my wrist forward or backward. My whole hand and wrist are in a relaxed position. With different sized knives my hand will open up or close down around the handle.

This doesn’t mean I can’t/don’t use other knives without these features, just that my hand will fall into a more natural position when I grip them.

Another thing I’ve found that makes a difference is how low the Trademark Round Hole sits when I grip the handle. My thumb apparently isn’t made to push a Round Hole on a Spyderco towards 9 o'clock; it works fine when I push the blade towards 10:00-10:30. As an example, when I open a Native 5 I have to grip it higher in my palm so I’m pushing the blade at that comfortable angle.

[Guts]

Index finger as close as safely and comfortably possible to the heel of the blade, especially on handle forward designs. This is generally not an issue with a finger-choiled knife since it’s easy to choke up. You might argue this isn’t an “ergo” issue but I think it is, because it affects grip. Example: the Barong is a knife I’ve avoided because the heel of the blade is so far away from the index finger, when held behind the guard (yes, I know, on the Barong you can choke up on the flat part of the ricasso, but then I have a concern about the index finger sliding forward.) The Bradley 2 and Goddard are also distant. “Kick” designs tend to put the heel of the blade further from the grip, which may be fine for large slashing movements (cutting up cardboard) but not ideal for fine work (stripping a wire, carving, fine paring), the latter of which I often need.

Great thread Bolster!

I guess most other things mentioned I'm not too picky about, but what you talk about here is really the main thing that bothers me on a lot of other mfg designs and what drives a lot of my purchasing decisions. From an ergonomic standpoint, but also a physics standpoint, it makes the most sense to me and just feels right to be able to get as close to the heel of the blade. Being able to get your index finger in line or preferably above where the pivot of the knife is. A lot of handle designs like on Benchmade, CRK, Hogue, etc all have handle designs that put a hard finger groove forcing your index well below the pivot. Then there's a 1/2"-3/4" of essentially "useless" space above that finger groove/guard. Generally too small or too unsafe to choke up above that spot and it doesn't serve any purpose that I'm aware of. The feel of these kinds of handles disagree with me a lot. It pushes your index lower, and therefore the rest of your hand lower on the handle. Personal thing for sure, but I just feel like you get less control, you make push cutting in particular just a bit harder for yourself since you're giving the knife more leverage over you holding it lower on the handle.

The Delica line and similar are interesting becuase they put your index finger above the pivot at the highest point on the handle, however they still have that roughly 1/2" section of nothing below the heel, like on a Benchmade or Hogue design. I realize that's by deisgn for finger safety in closing, however they were able to minimize that on the Rock and Leaf jumper while keeping it finger safe. So the delica is kind of an inbetween the, I'll call them "low index point" knives, like Benchmade or Hogue and handle forward or finger choil designs like most of the Spydercos. I find the Delica comfortable to use vs a low index point knife, but I feel like you could also get away with adding the extra 1/2" of cutting edge in the same size envelope with no downsides. If they ever do a Delica 5 I hope it might be similar to the Leafjumper.

An example of what I'm talking about. Red is roughly center on the pivot and Green is theoretically how high up your index can get


A handle forward design that's somewhat neutral I think makes the most sense. You can hold it however or wherever you want and you're not forced to only hold it a certain way. I've mentioned it here before (not that anyone cares lol), but I even feel like the forward finger choil that Spyderco is known for that many love, including myself, is even inferior to a good handle forward design. Designs like the Rock/Leafjumper, the Lil Temperance 3 and now on the Bodacious (when that comes out) I hope are the way forward. I think it's the best of both worlds since you can hold the knife however high or low you want and aren't forced into specific grips depending on the designer's whims or conventions.

Some more comparisons. So basically I'm not a fan of designs where the green line is below the red

[Vamais]

This thread reminds me of a video I saw a while back about medieval dagger handles.


The more I think about ergonomics (and the more Spydercos I buy), the less certain I am about individual features. I think that all the features interact, so you can't just ala-carte them and get an ergonomic handle. I've had knives that weren't very good ergonomically, but then I've changed the handles ever so slightly (either by adding or removing material), and they end up being great. I suspect that a big part of the R&D time for Spyderco is not jut getting the ergos right, but getting the ergos right for the whole spectrum of hand shapes and sizes, or as close to the whole spectrum as they can.

An example of a Spyderco I find very ergonomic for hard cutting tasks is the GB1. It's basically perfect for that. But it's not a knife I'd want for lots of quick open-cut-close edc use. Or if I found myself in a fight with a wild animal, because there's not enough grip security for that.

Tip control is another thing. If the blade is too long, using the tip for fine tasks is awkward, so it's not ergonomic.

For cutting wood, I want a thick handle. That might be the only generalization I can give.