Am I missing out on S110V?

[zuludelta]

If this were in fact true, you could run this steel at geometries which are literally half the included angle of what the factory runs. If you believe it is in fact a high stability steel, I would suggest proving that to yourself in practice : reprofile the edge and test the results and see if you still feel the same way and the results match your expectations. Likely you would not feel the same about it if you ran that test alongside something like LC200N at same geometry.

I admit to not having tested S110V's edge stability under controlled, experimental settings, and that my impressions are informed by informal observations in a highly variable work setting. My anecdotal experience does seem to align (to a degree) with Larrin Thomas's conclusion that hardness is the strongest controlling factor for edge stability, in his analysis of Roman's master's thesis as detailed in this Knife Steel Nerds article. I will concede that this may just be confirmation bias on my part, though, and that actual extensive experimental testing of S110V's edge stability may invalidate my experience.

[kobold]

My favorite S110V model is the Military. I never experienced chipping or any kind of edge instability, but preemptively micro-convexed it with DMT plates and maintain by freehand sharpening and stropping with diamonds as needed. Yes, it can be slightly harder to sharpen than the rest, but if i can keep it sharp, it means the only real challenge in my knife collection remains a Sandrin Torino.

Holy smokes that is something spectacular! I have to ask: who made the scales? Thanks for answer, and the photo. I mean.. just wow.

Glad you like it! It's from cuscadi.de.

More:

Amboyna (Military), yew (GB2), cedar (Manix 2) and the green ones are cheesewood:

[JoviAl]

My favorite S110V model is the Military. I never experienced chipping or any kind of edge instability, but preemptively micro-convexed it with DMT plates and maintain by freehand sharpening and stropping with diamonds as needed. Yes, it can be slightly harder to sharpen than the rest, but if i can keep it sharp, it means the only real challenge in my knife collection remains a Sandrin Torino.

Holy smokes that is something spectacular! I have to ask: who made the scales? Thanks for answer, and the photo. I mean.. just wow.

Glad you like it! It's from cuscadi.de.

More:

Amboyna (Military), yew (GB2), cedar (Manix 2) and the green ones are cheesewood:

Wow - those are striking scales!

As to the OP’s question about S110, I used to buy it due to its properties as a high edge retention stainless. I still have a UKPK and a Para3 in it, with the former being my pocket knife when visiting family in the UK and the latter not getting used much.

I have found S110V to be outclassed by Magnacut as a more complete user experience. I wouldn’t bother buying it if there was an alternative available in Magnacut - S110V is good as an EDC steel, but both great in my experience. I vastly prefer PE Magnacut or Elmax for forestry work, and S90V, 20CV, K390 or Cru Wear for EDC. For SE I really rate H1 - you can practically sharpen it with coarse language it is so easy to work with.

If I could only have 1 stainless steel and 1 non-stainless it would be Magnacut and K390 - they are both exquisite to use, sharpen and live with. H1 is a very close second to Magnacut if we are talking SE.

[Bolster]

For SE I really rate H1 - you can practically sharpen it with coarse language it is so easy to work with.

LOLOLOL. When you are in the states, please visit me in So. Calif. and cuss my knives sharp!

[JoviAl]

For SE I really rate H1 - you can practically sharpen it with coarse language it is so easy to work with.

LOLOLOL. When you are in the states, please visit me in So. Calif. and cuss my knives sharp!

I should warn you - we Yorkshire folk are potty mouths in the extreme. We make sailors and dock workers sound like particularly chaste nuns. It always amuses me that people around the world seem to think the English are all like Hugh Grant, when actually we’re more of a cross between a bar fight and an invasive species.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

If this were in fact true, you could run this steel at geometries which are literally half the included angle of what the factory runs. If you believe it is in fact a high stability steel, I would suggest proving that to yourself in practice : reprofile the edge and test the results and see if you still feel the same way and the results match your expectations. Likely you would not feel the same about it if you ran that test alongside something like LC200N at same geometry.

I admit to not having tested S110V's edge stability under controlled, experimental settings, and that my impressions are informed by informal observations in a highly variable work setting. My anecdotal experience does seem to align (to a degree) with Larrin Thomas's conclusion that hardness is the strongest controlling factor for edge stability, in his analysis of Roman's master's thesis as detailed in this Knife Steel Nerds article. I will concede that this may just be confirmation bias on my part, though, and that actual extensive experimental testing of S110V's edge stability may invalidate my experience.

You wouldn't even need a carefully conducted study to notice a difference, here's an example of something that would prove very easily this concept :

Buy Two Spyderco Siren models (or Native 5, etc), one in LC200N and the other in S110V or S90V. Regrind the edge on both to the same geometry. Start by cutting the edge angle in half, say 17 DPS down to 8.5 DPS. This alone should show a big difference. How many people do you hear talking about what a great idea it is to cut their super-duper high carbide knife steel's edge in half the degrees? Quite the opposite, you hear them often wanting to INCREASE the angle for fear of chips!

I agree that hardness is an important factor and may be the main factor if you are running very obtuse edge bevels. There is an excerpt in the article you reference which makes not of the importance of this distinction :

"A 20° single bevel edge (which was tested) is approximately equal to a 30-40° double bevel edge in terms of cutting ability and may also be similar in terms of edge stability. Therefore it may be that the 20° single bevel edge was too obtuse to clearly reveal differences in carbide volume or size. Roman tells me that other tests were performed on specimens with a 10° edge bevel and that those showed a greater difference between low carbide and high carbide volume steels, with brittle fracture failures with the high carbide steels [2]. However, those tests were not presented in the thesis. A 10° angle with the same load applied would lead to a greater stress applied to the material, and a smaller volume of the edge, which would be more likely to show the effects of carbides."

Again, I believe your edges are too obtuse to be pushing the type of performance that requires a true high stability steel. As I've noted before most any high carbide steel appears to be quite stable when you're running 30-40 degrees inclusive. The thing to note here is that unless you have direct experience w/ some degree of data to support, better not to state this view.

It isn't until you have made the decision that cutting ability matters far more than anything else that you begin to realize what sorts of steels have the most edge stability by using acute angles. I don't see many people arguing that you should lower your edge angle below 15 DPS so the trend is clearly 'super-size me' with carbides because you're edge is stable by mass alone.

The best sorts of steels for edge stability are things like 1095 at 67+ RC. I can say this from first-hand experience with one that I owned and used quite a bit at low angles and this is also the view that was held by Cliff Stamp with his experience using knives from Joe Calton in 1095 at high hardness. That type of steel/hardening was his preferred choice for a working knife but as we all know Cliff believed in optimizing geometry and the idea that not all knives should be 15-20 DPS at the edge.

[zuludelta]

You wouldn't even need a carefully conducted study to notice a difference, here's an example of something that would prove very easily this concept

[... ]

I agree that hardness is an important factor and may be the main factor if you are running very obtuse edge bevels.

I think this nails it. I do run my work knives with a relatively obtuse 20° microbevel.

[DukeBrnz]

Thought I’d update this thread with my thoughts now that I’ve had my Blurple N5 in hand for a few weeks now.

The Native platform is no stranger to me, as I own 5 currently. So I feel like I can give a pretty objective view on the steel itself from the perspective of an average knucklehead.

I used my knife till it would scrape off but not shave arm hair. Close examination showed tiny little flat spots in several places along the edge, mostly along the tip. Could’ve been microchips, could’ve been edge deformation. I tried sharpening using my standard worn out, Fine DMT stone and sharpmaker approach. This has worked on most steels for me, including S90V but on S110V this really didn’t seem to move metal. Try as I might the flat spots wouldn’t disappear.

Luckily I had some Venev Diamond Paste in 40, 7 and 1 micron show up in the mail. I gave the 40 micron a try and the flat spots were gone. The edge was restored to about factory sharpness, 7 and 1 micron gave me a very respectable edge, keener than I’m used to. Similar usage over past weeks has shown the edge to be holding very very nicely and I drop this in my pocket whenever I walk out the door.

S110V holds up beautifully to dirty wood, straps and cardboard. It’s been a very good, maintenance free little knife that is always shaving sharp. Overall I’d say that if you’re ok with learning how to sharpen it, but you’re on the fence about S110V, go for it.

[apollo]

Good looking Native! I see you have similar results as me with my Manix.
As long as you use youre mind while using youre knife i can not see s110V do anything but be amazing. And that is so with all steels in the end. Only some will be more forgiving then others in sharpening. And some will rust while others will not. For the rest Spyderco makes theyre blades so good even there most basic steels are great to use.

[R100]

If this were in fact true, you could run this steel at geometries which are literally half the included angle of what the factory runs. If you believe it is in fact a high stability steel, I would suggest proving that to yourself in practice : reprofile the edge and test the results and see if you still feel the same way and the results match your expectations. Likely you would not feel the same about it if you ran that test alongside something like LC200N at same geometry.

I admit to not having tested S110V's edge stability under controlled, experimental settings, and that my impressions are informed by informal observations in a highly variable work setting. My anecdotal experience does seem to align (to a degree) with Larrin Thomas's conclusion that hardness is the strongest controlling factor for edge stability, in his analysis of Roman's master's thesis as detailed in this Knife Steel Nerds article. I will concede that this may just be confirmation bias on my part, though, and that actual extensive experimental testing of S110V's edge stability may invalidate my experience.

You wouldn't even need a carefully conducted study to notice a difference, here's an example of something that would prove very easily this concept :

Buy Two Spyderco Siren models (or Native 5, etc), one in LC200N and the other in S110V or S90V. Regrind the edge on both to the same geometry. Start by cutting the edge angle in half, say 17 DPS down to 8.5 DPS. This alone should show a big difference. How many people do you hear talking about what a great idea it is to cut their super-duper high carbide knife steel's edge in half the degrees? Quite the opposite, you hear them often wanting to INCREASE the angle for fear of chips!

I agree that hardness is an important factor and may be the main factor if you are running very obtuse edge bevels. There is an excerpt in the article you reference which makes not of the importance of this distinction :

"A 20° single bevel edge (which was tested) is approximately equal to a 30-40° double bevel edge in terms of cutting ability and may also be similar in terms of edge stability. Therefore it may be that the 20° single bevel edge was too obtuse to clearly reveal differences in carbide volume or size. Roman tells me that other tests were performed on specimens with a 10° edge bevel and that those showed a greater difference between low carbide and high carbide volume steels, with brittle fracture failures with the high carbide steels [2]. However, those tests were not presented in the thesis. A 10° angle with the same load applied would lead to a greater stress applied to the material, and a smaller volume of the edge, which would be more likely to show the effects of carbides."

Again, I believe your edges are too obtuse to be pushing the type of performance that requires a true high stability steel. As I've noted before most any high carbide steel appears to be quite stable when you're running 30-40 degrees inclusive. The thing to note here is that unless you have direct experience w/ some degree of data to support, better not to state this view.

It isn't until you have made the decision that cutting ability matters far more than anything else that you begin to realize what sorts of steels have the most edge stability by using acute angles. I don't see many people arguing that you should lower your edge angle below 15 DPS so the trend is clearly 'super-size me' with carbides because you're edge is stable by mass alone.

The best sorts of steels for edge stability are things like 1095 at 67+ RC. I can say this from first-hand experience with one that I owned and used quite a bit at low angles and this is also the view that was held by Cliff Stamp with his experience using knives from Joe Calton in 1095 at high hardness. That type of steel/hardening was his preferred choice for a working knife but as we all know Cliff believed in optimizing geometry and the idea that not all knives should be 15-20 DPS at the edge.

Generalisation about carbide volume will only get you so far. LC200N is not a high stability steel - it rolls way too easily. I actually do have Sirens in both S90V and LC200N and always run angles below 15dps. S90V is considerably more stable at low edge angles despite the much higher carbide volume. S110V not so much and in my experience shouldn't be treated as analogous to S90V. Steel performance is due to a combination of factors, not just one.

Dan

[Traditional.Sharpening]

If this were in fact true, you could run this steel at geometries which are literally half the included angle of what the factory runs. If you believe it is in fact a high stability steel, I would suggest proving that to yourself in practice : reprofile the edge and test the results and see if you still feel the same way and the results match your expectations. Likely you would not feel the same about it if you ran that test alongside something like LC200N at same geometry.

I admit to not having tested S110V's edge stability under controlled, experimental settings, and that my impressions are informed by informal observations in a highly variable work setting. My anecdotal experience does seem to align (to a degree) with Larrin Thomas's conclusion that hardness is the strongest controlling factor for edge stability, in his analysis of Roman's master's thesis as detailed in this Knife Steel Nerds article. I will concede that this may just be confirmation bias on my part, though, and that actual extensive experimental testing of S110V's edge stability may invalidate my experience.

You wouldn't even need a carefully conducted study to notice a difference, here's an example of something that would prove very easily this concept :

Buy Two Spyderco Siren models (or Native 5, etc), one in LC200N and the other in S110V or S90V. Regrind the edge on both to the same geometry. Start by cutting the edge angle in half, say 17 DPS down to 8.5 DPS. This alone should show a big difference. How many people do you hear talking about what a great idea it is to cut their super-duper high carbide knife steel's edge in half the degrees? Quite the opposite, you hear them often wanting to INCREASE the angle for fear of chips!

I agree that hardness is an important factor and may be the main factor if you are running very obtuse edge bevels. There is an excerpt in the article you reference which makes not of the importance of this distinction :

"A 20° single bevel edge (which was tested) is approximately equal to a 30-40° double bevel edge in terms of cutting ability and may also be similar in terms of edge stability. Therefore it may be that the 20° single bevel edge was too obtuse to clearly reveal differences in carbide volume or size. Roman tells me that other tests were performed on specimens with a 10° edge bevel and that those showed a greater difference between low carbide and high carbide volume steels, with brittle fracture failures with the high carbide steels [2]. However, those tests were not presented in the thesis. A 10° angle with the same load applied would lead to a greater stress applied to the material, and a smaller volume of the edge, which would be more likely to show the effects of carbides."

Again, I believe your edges are too obtuse to be pushing the type of performance that requires a true high stability steel. As I've noted before most any high carbide steel appears to be quite stable when you're running 30-40 degrees inclusive. The thing to note here is that unless you have direct experience w/ some degree of data to support, better not to state this view.

It isn't until you have made the decision that cutting ability matters far more than anything else that you begin to realize what sorts of steels have the most edge stability by using acute angles. I don't see many people arguing that you should lower your edge angle below 15 DPS so the trend is clearly 'super-size me' with carbides because you're edge is stable by mass alone.

The best sorts of steels for edge stability are things like 1095 at 67+ RC. I can say this from first-hand experience with one that I owned and used quite a bit at low angles and this is also the view that was held by Cliff Stamp with his experience using knives from Joe Calton in 1095 at high hardness. That type of steel/hardening was his preferred choice for a working knife but as we all know Cliff believed in optimizing geometry and the idea that not all knives should be 15-20 DPS at the edge.

Generalisation about carbide volume will only get you so far. LC200N is not a high stability steel - it rolls way too easily. I actually do have Sirens in both S90V and LC200N and always run angles below 15dps. S90V is considerably more stable at low edge angles despite the much higher carbide volume. S110V not so much and in my experience shouldn't be treated as analogous to S90V. Steel performance is due to a combination of factors, not just one.

Dan

It's obviously a generalization and it really depends on many factors how low you can ultimately take things. That said, you didn't specify what sort of polish you are running on the apex. This is really what edge stability is referring to, how well it can take a polished apex. I believe polished to mean the finish would be something north of 3,000 JIS grit rating and most people don't take pocket knives that far.

There are many factors and even something like sharpening quality can be a big factor. I know the LC200N can be quite 'gummy' compared to higher carbide/RC knives and this alone can mean the sharpening quality can be lower if you don't deal with it well and it affects the condition the edge starts in. Have you been able to put those edges under magnification to see what they looked like after sharpening to assure the edges were formed cleanly and burr free?

[R100]

It's obviously a generalization and it really depends on many factors how low you can ultimately take things. That said, you didn't specify what sort of polish you are running on the apex. This is really what edge stability is referring to, how well it can take a polished apex. I believe polished to mean the finish would be something north of 3,000 JIS grit rating and most people don't take pocket knives that far.

There are many factors and even something like sharpening quality can be a big factor. I know the LC200N can be quite 'gummy' compared to higher carbide/RC knives and this alone can mean the sharpening quality can be lower if you don't deal with it well and it affects the condition the edge starts in. Have you been able to put those edges under magnification to see what they looked like after sharpening to assure the edges were formed cleanly and burr free?

I never go to a polished edge. I sharpen LC20ON with either Spyderco medium ceramic or, in the field, DMT fine and then finish with a light strop on leather with 3 micron Gunny Juice. I then maintain with that strop until a full resharpening is needed. I have a USB microscope at home and and a stereo microscope in the lab at work to examine the edge and can be confident there is no residual burr. The rolling I refer to is easily visible with the naked eye. I actually do like LC200N because it is so corrosion resistant, so easy to achieve a very sharp edge and it's easy to repair any damage done. I am about to set off on a 3 week motorcycle trip into central Australia and will take my LC200N Siren as my main knife. I would rather an edge roll than chip but what I really want is one that will do neither. K390 and CPM4V are my current favourites.

As far as S110V goes, it is the steel I have had most problem with chipping. After reading an article posted on the forum I think I may have caused micro-fracturing near the apex when I was thinning the edges of my 2 S110V knives. This makes it my error but I haven't had this issue before despite using the same method on many other steels, including ZDP189 which rates lower in Larrin's toughness charts. S110V does seem a little "too much aggregate and not enough cement" to me and is probably my least favourite steel. It's the only one that I have resorted to 20dps mini bevels with.

Dan

[alphaneuron9]

Ive been using LC200N at approx 10 degrees but using the dual grit system. 200 on one side 3000 on the other. It seems to be giving me the longest lasting edge, although, the hair shaving sharpness disappears fairly quickly. Mostly using for cardboard and letter opening, cloth, minimal stuff. An edc. what do you think? willing to try the dual grit?

[Skar]

Well I’ve been eyeing the blurple Millie however, you guys are not building a lot of confidence in s110v.
Chipping and sharpening challenges are two things I don’t enjoy.