Military 2 Discussion (Merged)

[JSumm]

I just wanted a moment of silence for the incredible Military linerlock as we watch its inevitable demise. There is no better no worse. I just really enjoy it.

[kennethsime]

At this point I’m thinking I’m going to buy the S30V on the first drop out of sheer spite for this heavily redundant thread.

[cabfrank]

That's a fine idea!

[Wartstein]

I just wanted a moment of silence for the incredible Military linerlock as we watch its inevitable demise. There is no better no worse. I just really enjoy it.

Yeah, the liner- vs comp.lock discussion is getting really tiring indeed.

I just hope it will at least lead to one good thing (and this is actually the only reason why I myself get dragged into this topic, for I personally find all locktypes perfectly "fingersafe" for me anyway):

- That at least some people won't shy away from good linerlocks on knives with a fingerchoil anymore because they think that would be "less safe" for the fingers.

Anyone who can think, see (for example on Vandelays pics) and try for themselves should realize at this point:

- Both comp. and linerlock keep four fingers out of the bladepath at all times (the linerlock just in an overall more secure grip)
- The comp.lock requires to move that fingers out of the way deliberately, the linerlock on a choil knife not because here the choil would inevitably hit the thumb and keep the fingers protected, even if one places them in the blade path by accident(so actually added safety on the linerlock)
- The thumb can't be hit by the edge on a comp.lock because it is out of the way too (in that pinch grip method), and can't be hit by the edge on a linerlock cause one can't activate the lock without putting the thumb in a completely safe place where only the choil could hit it.

So, folks: Please don't get distracted by the "unsafe linerlock" (on a knife like the Millie) - myth anymore! There sure are other reasons to dislike (or like) that lock on that model, but certainly not the "safety" issue.

Both comp. and linerlock on a knife with choil are really safe enough "for the fingers"

[anycal]

Yeah, the liner- vs comp.lock discussion is getting really tiring indeed...

That's pretty funny. The first four pages of this thread were folks, for the most part, excited about this model. Nobody was comparing one lock with the other... until someone brought up the topic.

I don't really care. Both locks are fine. Compression lock allows one to have fingers completely out of the way of the blade.

[Mushroom]

It’s only tiring for you because you’re emotionally attached to the liner lock and making it a battle between the two. No one’s trying to exterminate liner locks from existence. It’s more about appreciating the improvements Sal developed for a well established locking concept by creating the Compression lock.

I can’t tell if you’re insinuating that I can’t see, think, and try for myself but when closing a compression lock the grip can be just as secure as any other lock.

Also, the compression lock does not require the users fingers to be moved out of the blade path to close the knife. It just has the advantage over the liner lock of being able to do that though.

You can place your finger in the same spot under the choil with a compression lock as you can with the liner lock, so it is not unique and does not provide any advantage over a compression lock in that regard.

That pinch grip I explained to another user was because he didn’t know how to operate a compression lock left handed. It is obviously not the only way to operate the lock. The only way to operate a liner lock though is by putting a finger in the path of the blade. Choil or not, a finger has to be in the path of the closing blade.

No one is calling the liner lock unsafe but if they are I haven’t seen it. That has never been the point of any of my posts on this topic either. I’ve said quite the opposite actually.

[Wartstein]

Yeah, the liner- vs comp.lock discussion is getting really tiring indeed...

That's pretty funny. The first four pages of this thread were folks, for the most part, excited about this model. Nobody was comparing one lock with the other... until someone brought up the topic.

I don't really care. Both locks are fine. Compression lock allows one to have fingers completely out of the way of the blade.

Funny or puzzling indeed how some people always and inevitably repeat the myth how "unsafe" a linerlock on a Millie would be compared to a comp lock

I personally don't care either. Both locks are really safe, no doubt.

I just care for those (members or lurkers here) who perhaps have little experience and shy away from even trying a good linerlock knife like the Millie cause they believe in such myths and actually fear for their fingers without a real reason.

Same goes for things like "serrations are hard to sharpen" or "only good for fibrous material" and so on.

The broader theme here really is: People should really and unbiased see, think and try for themselves.

Besides I think it is not unreasonable to discuss if whatever change in the Millie 2 is a pro or con for the one or the other (ergos, choil, lock, clip...)

[Wartstein]

It’s only tiring for you because you’re emotionally attached...

Nick, as I've said several times already: I really respect and appreciate your knowledge (in many cases certainly more than I have) and contributions here, but the two of us discussing locks never ends well

My post was in no way directed towards you, and that is actually pretty clear to see, right? :

All I was saying is that people who "see, think and try for themselves" should realize that a linerlock on a Millie, just like a comp.loclk, is not a great danger for their fingers.
YOU don't say and think that anyway, so just forget it

No "battle" here, no emotion, but rather putting things into a rational perspective.

Concerning "thumb getting hit by the choil, not the blade": With a linerlock this is inevitable (on knives with a choil) cause otherwise one can't activate the lock in the first place (that is unique). With a comp lock it is a deliberate act to put the thumb there, mistakes are possible.

But again: I think both locks are really safe for the fingers anyway, I did not mean to offend you by any means, so please just let's not discuss this anymore.

[Mushroom]

It never ends well because it just never ends! It’s as if no one is allowed to talk about the compression lock without also needing to hear about the (also safe but different) liner lock.

As you wish though.

[Cl1ff]

We were on a pretty good of run just commenting simple appreciation for the two locks and what each does for us (plus some wishful thinking about variations and what’s popular), but it seems to inevitably devolve into disagreement.
The best way to avoid this is actually to recognize the trigger. A big red button of “redundant post with dubious claims” will pop up. When you see that, it’s the response that will trigger another cycle. Because the conversation was reignited by redundancy, rather than any novel perspective or information, it has no fuel and will lead nowhere.
Sometimes it’s not worth it to press the big red button, but it can be hard not to. I’ve done my share of this and I still sometimes struggle finding the self restraint to just ignore things.
It kinda feels like giving up, but I think it’s actually more effective. If the information you want to let people know about is out there already, simply point in its direction with a link or something.
If that’s not effective, then it’s at least not as much of a waste of energy.

[Evil D]

^^^^^ I may post a lot but you guys wouldn't believe how many times I type out replies and delete them. It's probably 50% of the time or better and of that 50% that I push through I edit them several times.


I must say I'm somewhat surprised about the support of this lock (knife). And I want to emphasize KNIFE because I think this topic is a lot more about the Military itself than about liner locks in general. I don't see anybody making threads requesting liner lock Delicas and Para 2's. This is why my stance has always been, the liner lock is not my favorite lock but I think it's perfect for the Military, and that makes the Military perfect for the uses I have for it. Those uses are primarily heavy/hard use with gloves on, and I really wonder if the M2 will work for me as well but we'll see. I think overall I'm most disappointed that the M2 didn't get a Power Lock because I was really looking forward to trying it out and I liked the idea of a more ambidextrous Military.

[skeeg11]

Regardless of lock choice on a folder, it's still a mystery why one would choose to put the fleshy part of a digit in the path of a blade when closing when the knife gods gave us keratin. Tough stuff.

[Wartstein]

It never ends well because it just never ends! It’s as if no one is allowed to talk about the compression lock without also needing to hear about the (also safe but different) liner lock.

As you wish though.

Thanks!

The "problem" (don't find any better term) and the "trigger" are actually not folks who talk about the one or the other lock - but those who just can't help to always and unreflectedly emphasize how "unsafe" a linerlock is compared to a comp.lock whenever there is a change from the former to the latter.
Happened in this thread again and is something we obviously both agree on as not being true for objective reasons.

So all good!

[salimoneus]

Thanks!

The "problem" (don't find any better term) and the "trigger" are actually not folks who talk about the one or the other lock - but those who just can't help to always and unreflectedly emphasize how "unsafe" a linerlock is compared to a comp.lock whenever there is a change from the former to the latter.
Happened in this thread again and is something we obviously both agree on as not being true for objective reasons.

So all good!

I think some people are misinterpreting someone else making a statement that the compression lock has many advantages over a liner lock, and that it's "safer", and taking that to imply the person is saying liner locks are "unsafe" which I don't think has been the case.

It's just a simple fact that the compression lock is safer to operate than a liner lock, as well as being a more robust design. I don't think those things can be disputed.

I personally own many liner locks and find them to be adequately safe enough for my purposes, but it still doesn't prevent me from making comparisons to other lock types, and having a personal preference.

I agree that it would be silly to claim that a well designed liner lock to be "unsafe", they have worked just fine for decades without any major issues, and will continue to for several decades more, at least in the more budget friendly model lines.

[vandelay]

I think a lot of the usual complaints about comp locks could be solved if they just threaded an insert into the lock bar that sticks up about the same height as the handle scale when it's locked. No finger tip required, so it would work with gloves. It would work fine left handed since you could actuate the button while still putting pressure on the scale with your thumb tip. It could also be removed if it's threaded, for people who don't like it.

[Wartstein]

I think a lot of the usual complaints about comp locks could be solved if they just threaded an insert into the lock bar that sticks up about the same height as the handle scale when it's locked. No finger tip required, so it would work with gloves. It would work fine left handed since you could actuate the button while still putting pressure on the scale with your thumb tip. It could also be removed if it's threaded, for people who don't like it.

I think this exist as an aftermarket part - called the "compression made easy device" (I think)

I started a thread on this once, see here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90167#p1540050

And below a screenshout out of a youtube vid link here https://youtu.be/RDv07o5new8

[BeggarSo]

I think a lot of the usual complaints about comp locks could be solved if they just threaded an insert into the lock bar that sticks up about the same height as the handle scale when it's locked. No finger tip required, so it would work with gloves. It would work fine left handed since you could actuate the button while still putting pressure on the scale with your thumb tip. It could also be removed if it's threaded, for people who don't like it.

Not trying to be a jerk but I have to disagree with the idea of making the lock bar even with the scale or easier to disengage, in my experience it is better to have the lock bar recessed to prevent accidental disengagement.

The reason I disagree is because I have inadvertently disengaged a comp lock on an older PM2 produced oh around 2015 and darn near had a bad cut only the wonderfully designed choil kept me from the hospital that day.

I can see if a person needs to wear gloves where a different designed lock would be better from them so I would say hurry up and look at the Spyderco Smock it is one heck of a good knife with a button that engages the comp lock.

Spyderco probably already thought of doing the same lock on the Military 2 as well as certain other models and has their own reason why they did not, personally I love that iteration of the comp lock.

[vandelay]

I think a lot of the usual complaints about comp locks could be solved if they just threaded an insert into the lock bar that sticks up about the same height as the handle scale when it's locked. No finger tip required, so it would work with gloves. It would work fine left handed since you could actuate the button while still putting pressure on the scale with your thumb tip. It could also be removed if it's threaded, for people who don't like it.

I think this exist as an aftermarket part - called the "compression made easy device" (I think)

I started a thread on this once, see here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90167#p1540050

And below a screenshout out of a youtube vid link here https://youtu.be/RDv07o5new8

Ah, that's certainly a way to do it. If I were going that route, I'd 3D print one so it's better chamfered and sticks out less, but the permanent glue-on attachment sucks. Having to undo the mod with a file would not be fun, especially on a DLC knife.

I think a lot of the usual complaints about comp locks could be solved if they just threaded an insert into the lock bar that sticks up about the same height as the handle scale when it's locked. No finger tip required, so it would work with gloves. It would work fine left handed since you could actuate the button while still putting pressure on the scale with your thumb tip. It could also be removed if it's threaded, for people who don't like it.

Not trying to be a jerk but I have to disagree with the idea of making the lock bar even with the scale or easier to disengage, in my experience it is better to have the lock bar recessed to prevent accidental disengagement.

The reason I disagree is because I have inadvertently disengaged a comp lock on an older PM2 produced oh around 2015 and darn near had a bad cut only the wonderfully designed choil kept me from the hospital that day.

I can see if a person needs to wear gloves where a different designed lock would be better from them so I would say hurry up and look at the Spyderco Smock it is one heck of a good knife with a button that engages the comp lock.

Spyderco probably already thought of doing the same lock on the Military 2 as well as certain other models and has their own reason why they did not, personally I love that iteration of the comp lock.

Yeah, that's a fair concern. I think it could be done in a way where it would be hard to accidentally disengage, but an addition like that should be removable. It's going to be down to your risk tolerance and how you use the knife. I wouldn't be too concerned on the millie since it has a choil. I have a frame lock in my rotation that has no blade guard and you can unlock it by holding it wrong... I just take some additional caution when I use it.

The smock was the inspiration for that idea. I don't think the ergos on it are for me, but I'd like the idea to continue its evolution.

[BeggarSo]

One thing is for sure the lock will not prevent me from buying a M2 proof of that is the M1, I have several and do not like the liner lock at all.

At this point I do believe Spyderco has sufficient input and will take it into consideration for perhaps exclusives and sprint runs.

After all did they not create the most impressive and technically difficult PM2 with that fantastic tanto blade? As I recall it was a challenge to grind and then some.

[dan31]

David hit the bullseye. I love the Military 1, it just happens to have a liner lock. I prefer the liner lock on the Military 1 to the comp lock on the PM2. It’s not wrong, just different. I get all sides and I am supremely comfortable preferring the Military 1. I plan on picking up at least 1 or 2 more before the sunset. I know many will enjoy and be passionate about the Military 2.