MAP policy change? 35%

[jdw]

Given some of the quality control issues and higher prices coming out of the Japanese plants in general and Moki in particular I can't imagine how they can justify a price increase. Problems with quality control plus higher prices doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[JRinFL]

Actually going from 60% of MSRP to 65% of MSRP is 8.3% increase. Plus annual increase 3-4%? The company I am working for doesn't give it's employees even half of this.
All of this is up to Spyderco. I hope that they know, what are they doing. I do not need to buy any more knives. If I sell 80%, I will have plenty until end of my days.

Yep. Most small employers like mine could never afford to give regular yearly raises like this without also raising their prices thus driving business away. I guess pocket knives are like jewelry, non-essential luxury items. I haven't had a new car in 15 years and now it looks like I'm out of the Spyderco market as well. C'est la Vie

If the difference between paying $120 for a $200 knife and paying $130 for it is enough to drive you away, then yes, C'est la Vie. Hope for your sake gas prices don't jump 10% or more any time soon, or you may have to travel via shanks' mare.

Riiiight...I should just absorb the increase because everyone else deserves my money more than I do?
Let me put it bluntly, Spyderco used to the best value in the market, now many models no longer are that best value. Many agree with me, many do not. This a (somewhat) free market and I have made my decision reduce what I spend with Spyderco just like I have done with everything from cable tv, how much electricity I use and yes, gas usage. Sal says he likes feedback, good or bad. My relationship with Spyderco has been strictly seller/buyer and never have I received anything special or free from them, no matter how many thousands I have spent so far with them. I only owe them honest feedback which I have given.

[JRinFL]

Map was implemented just two years ago. A Para2 could be purchased for $112 and sometimes for as low as $108 just before MAP was implemented. These were Knifeworks' prices. In a month a Para2 will be $136 which is a significant increase in just two years. $136/$112= 21% increase.

Before MAP I converted a few of my coworkers to Spyderco by recommending to them that they try a Delica4. At that point in time they were available for $56 to $58. In a month that same Delica will be $75. I am a huge Delica fan but $75 is a tough sell and that is a large price increase in just two years. $75/$58= 29% increase.

Comments that folks in Golden deserve a raise are misunderstanding MAP. We have NOT been told that Spyderco is increasing their wholesale price. Maybe they are or maybe they aren't but we are not being told that. What we are being told is that dealers will be required to sell for a higher price. I interpret this as Spyderco guaranteeing a larger margin, not as Spyderco making a larger profit.

Saying that MAP is just limiting the advertised price is a disingenuous. With the exception of Amazon I have not found one vendor willing to sell below MAP during the past two years (since MAP was implemented) unless on clearance. We are not looking at MAP, we are looking at price fixing.

MAP is intended to provide a level playing field. Unfortunately what I have seen over the past two years is Amazon continually ignoring MAP. They appear to be above the law. Amazon does not seem to care about counterfeits and we continually recommend that people avoid them and seek out reputable dealers but yet Spyderco implements pricing that only points more people towards Amazon. I'm baffled? Amazon does not care about counterfeits, they do not give to Kniferights, they do not commission exclusives and in general do not support the industry. This MAP pricing just gives them more room to slit the throats of the vendors we try to support.

I am a hardcore Spyderco fanboy and own well over 100 of them but I have not drank the Kool-Aid. I do not see how this benefits the dealers we value. I apologize for being so candid. I genuinely want Spyderco to succeed and I will remain a loyal fan but the whole MAP thing has me dumbfounded.

Your whole post is excellent.

On the $75 Delica: it competes directly with the made in USA Kershaw Dividend M390 and the Link M390 for a few bucks more. The Delica will be harder to sell to new knife buyers.

[mattman]

Saying that MAP is just limiting the advertised price is a disingenuous. With the exception of Amazon I have not found one vendor willing to sell below MAP during the past two years (since MAP was implemented) unless on clearance. We are not looking at MAP, we are looking at price fixing.

MAP is intended to provide a level playing field. Unfortunately what I have seen over the past two years is Amazon continually ignoring MAP. They appear to be above the law. Amazon does not seem to care about counterfeits and we continually recommend that people avoid them and seek out reputable dealers but yet Spyderco implements pricing that only points more people towards Amazon. I'm baffled? Amazon does not care about counterfeits, they do not give to Kniferights, they do not commission exclusives and in general do not support the industry. This MAP pricing just gives them more room to slit the throats of the vendors we try to support.

Thanks, Darby... I was having this same thought today, as well... The afi community has been fervent in pointing people away from Amazon for all of your reasons, yet this seems like a big step backwards in that fight? Now there is even more incentive to go to Amazon for Spydies and the forum will be even more littered with "is my new knife fake?" posts... I don't get this aspect of the MAP policy... Doesn't seem like it's leveling the playing field to me. In general, I have come to trust sal and his crew because they have been so ethical in every other visible aspect... This policy change by itself wouldn't have made me think twice about it, but for the Amazon loophole. Some of my trust has been eroded...

[dplafoll]

Just a reminder: MAP stands for "minimum advertised price". It has nothing whatever to do with the price at which the product is sold, just the price at which it is advertised. If a dealer wants to sell Spydercos at $5 apiece, they can absolutely do so; otherwise, it's price fixing and illegal (as far as I know). They simply can't advertise that price. So as long as the price advertised is not below MAP, Amazon and Massdrop can sell them for whatever they wish, and the only way of which I am aware that Spyderco would have to stop that would be to be rid of Amazon and MD as dealers.
So while a dealer has to sell at some sort of profit in order to keep themselves open, there's no reason why they can't sell to you at, say, 40% off, or %50, or whatever they want.
My take on this change is this: I have not, in the few years I've been in this hobby and buying Spyderco knives, had any reason to doubt the intentions and commitment to customers of Spyderco as a company. There are a lot of things we don't know about this situation, but I don't have any reason to believe that this is some random change with no good reason(s) behind it. If Sal and Co. tell me that they need to increase MAP and, on a few items, increase the MSRP, then I believe them. Will it make it a little harder to buy their knives for me and for others? Yes. Will it really have that much effect on me personally though? Not really, because I already buy mine through a local B&M and I am never going to pay MAP anyways. I regret that effect on some people, but I also know these are luxury items. Tools, yes, but they are a premium tool, and in perspective there are far worse things in our lives that can and will experience price fluctuation. For example, the price of oil is increasing again due to worldwide economic upturn and decreased OPEC production. This will increase not only fuel prices, but prices on a good number of items that are also petroleum-based. I'm more concerned about that than a slight increase in Spyderco knife prices.

[mastiff]

I want to compare prices for people so they actually see what this price increase means. I'll compare 2 back-lock folders of similar size and weight from 2 very popular companies.

Knifeworks.com prices

Spyderco Endura 4- 35% Map comes to a $87.71. TiNi'd VG-10 and FRN at 3.4oz

Cold Steel Broken Skull- $78.95. DLC'd CTS-XHP and a multitude of colors in G10 at 3.1oz.

Is the Endura really worth $8.76 more than the CS? Sorry, but no. I own both and the CS is hands down the better knife. I was against Cold Steel at one time but since MAP was instituted at Spyderco they got a chance. I bought 18 Spydies in the 2 years before Map, 3 since. My only Spydie this year was the Sliverax. If this is only to make dealers happy then this is a major mistake. All it does is hurt Spyderco.

They're going to go from being the best you can get for the price to being priced too high for the materials you get. VG-10 isn't even in the same league as almost all CPM or CTS steels. Most edge retention tests put it close AUS 8 in edge retention and only slightly better at resisting corrosion. Now I might buy American made Spydies or even Taiwan made Spydies but Japan, well my feelings are probably known about those offerings. But even the countries that make good folders will be priced higher, and with globalism you can get a dang fine folder for a very decent price now. It was Spyderco that made me realize that Taiwan made folders are more than just OK, they can be great! Guess where Cold Steel has their folders made?

Spyderco is going to inch closer and closer to Benchmade's MAP % it looks like. Mark my words, in 2 or 3 years Spyderco will move another 5% until eventually getting to Benchmades 15%. That would be too bad as I haven't bought a Benchmade in a long long time. Price to performance and materials is a joke with them. Nothing but venom and hate is spewed at Benchmade now because of MAP, it drove away their most loyal customers. Unless your plan is to make a million junk folders for $19.99 like Kershaw or SOG (man do they spew some serious junk) I'd stop. Please Spyderco, stop listening to big dealers. MAP only hurts the little guy. Here let me explain-

When you institute MAP, well other incentives come into play. While the little guy may not be able to afford free shipping or even if he can it has to come in at $150 or even $200, the big guys do it $100 or even $49. Who do you think gets the sale in that situation? Don't lie either with the load of bull-pucky "Well I always support the little guy", because if you did the little businesses wouldn't be folding up so fast. Be honest. How about when the big guys offer free hats? Or Shirts? Or something as dumb as a flight tag? People will do anything for a discount or free, just look at the Black Friday fights.

Anyone that can be completely honest with themselves know this will kill the small guys like National Knives off a little quicker. And that's what the big stores want. You think it's bad now? Wait till there is nobody to compete with, that folks will be the conclusion to MAP. People will keep saying "but it's only a few dollars" then it gets to be straight MSRP, and do you really think a TiNi Endura 4 with VG-10 Steel and FRN is worth $135? Spyderco should tell these dealers to take a long walk off of a short dock.

This same thing happened with car dealers, I remember you used to be able to order direct from the factory. Till the car dealers had a fit and shut it down. That's why you have to just take the crappy "packages" they have now, instead of picking what you actually want. I feel sorry for the small dealers, this is going to hurt. Wow, and Spyderco isn't going to make any extra either. I for one will never buy from a big dealer again. BladeHQ is now a goner. I guess National Knives will get all of my business (what very little Spydie purchases that will be), because at least he had the decency to warn us! Competing is getting harder, raising prices on products with lesser materials isn't going to help.

It looks like another major year of only buying 1 or 2 Spydies if I even do that. Sad really, it's looking more and more like dealers control the manufacturers these days.

[Donut]

How do people purchase them if the price they are selling them for is not the price that they are advertising or listing them at?

I could be wrong, but I think advertised pricing is the same as listed pricing on websites for dealers. I think I saw a couple of "email only deals" and not publicly advertised deals after the MAP thing came around.

I was attracted to flashlights a while back and one of the bigger brand names had fixed pricing. There was one dealer who had an "email us for pricing" policy. That seems like a LOT of work, having to talk to everyone before each sale.

Maybe you could do the Sierra Trading Post deal and email out coupon codes. That surely wouldn't be advertised pricing.

For me, I shifted a lot of my "buying from dealers" to "very slow and deliberate buying from dealers" and other methods. Buying second hand, trading. The things I purchase from dealers are the models that I really think are a good value or things that I will miss out on or get price gouged on the secondary market if I don't pay an obsurd price to a dealer.

[clovisc]

Perhaps dealers could do like Rickenbacker guitar dealers do and not advertise (the "A" in MAP) the price -- just show it when you add it to your cart or request an emailed price.

[ross8425]

That would be too bad as I haven't bought a Benchmade in a long long time. Price to performance and materials is a joke with them. Nothing but venom and hate is spewed at Benchmade now because of MAP, it drove away their most loyal customers.

This is true. I actually bought my first BM in years today. A lightly used 551-1 LNIB for $125. No way I would pay $180 for that. At $125 it seems like a good deal, and I have wanted a full size g10 grip for a while. But once they kept raising the prices , it wasn't worth it. I got my first mini grip for probably $65. Now they are what, $90? $95? I don't even know.

[illacky]

That would be too bad as I haven't bought a Benchmade in a long long time. Price to performance and materials is a joke with them. Nothing but venom and hate is spewed at Benchmade now because of MAP, it drove away their most loyal customers.

This is true. I actually bought my first BM in years today. A lightly used 551-1 LNIB for $125. No way I would pay $180 for that. At $125 it seems like a good deal, and I have wanted a full size g10 grip for a while. But once they kept raising the prices , it wasn't worth it. I got my first mini grip for probably $65. Now they are what, $90? $95? I don't even know.

The only BM I own is a mini grip in 20cv with grey g10, which happened to be a birthday gift. Although it's a nice knife, it's not $166 nice, not considering you could recently buy the red pm2 for less with a larger blade, comparable materials and far superior design. We will see how this plays out, but preliminarily it appears Spyderco's cost to value ratio is closing in on the likes of Benchmade with this change.

[FCM415]

Seelms like only brick n mortar stores can sell at whatever they want. Theres not one knife store worth its salt within 500 miles of me in California. Most knife stires try to sell anove MAP anyway.

[Peter1960]

I can live with the fresh price increase again and I saw price increases from Spyderco over inflation rates during the last years also. And it will not hurt me if a decission board is doing it again and again, they will have their good reasons.

Because I have other challanges and knives are only a hobby and not really essential for my way of life. I'm fortune enough to have a lot more knives in my drawers than I really need and this is pure luxury. What I want to say is my good times with Spydies are gone, model variety and price policy is no longer as attractive for me as it was in the past. I will still pick the one or the other Spydie but I will think twice if it is a model in good old spirit or not. Same did I also during the last couple of years (in 2017 I bought one Spydie second hand).

One more point as European: you US-guys get your Spydies at a bargain compared to our dealer prices here

[vivi]

Interesting. The lack of stainless steel, or rust proof steel lockbacks in a blade shape I like has already made this a slim pickings year for me. I actually purchased my first knife from a different company in years this week, my first Cold Steel. I was looking at re-purchasing the Street Bowie, but the second generation Spike had a lot of similar features for a quarter of the price. Figured for that price I'd give it a shot and if I don't like it, I'll return it for 25% off a street Bowie.

I'm hoping something more along my tastes appears in the 2018 catalog. As it is my favorite knife (Pacific Salt) is being tossed out for an (IMO) inferior version someday soon, my second favorite knife (Police 3) is discontinued for a version with more belly (Not a fan) and no stainless steel options (Will not buy one until this is rectified). My third favorite knife (Military) had had a successor in the works since I joined this forum.

I don't want steels I have to baby and 3 finger handle office dress-up folders. I work outside in the rain and humidity and sweat and have big man hands. I have money I'm waiting to throw at some LC200N lockbacks. Or a fixed blade.

It's annoying seeing 200 variations of the Para 3 before a stainless steel Police 4 is even discussed when the Para 2 is already too small.

I love Spyderco for more than just the knives they make, but also how they do business. But at the end of the day it's tough to justify paying $200 for a folding knife that won't do anything better for me than my $75 Pacific Salt.

In fact when I purchased the CS Spike I checked out their folders. $45-50 for a Taiwan made, CTSBD1 4" blade Voyager with different blade shape options. If they had an opening hole I'd buy one to try out. After a decade + of not using them, I can't see myself going back to thumbstuds.

I dunno, I feel like at this point I need to start looking elsewhere for 3.75"-4.75" blade length lockbacks because aside from the Police Spyderco doesn't want to make them, and the Endura 4 handle never worked for me.....

[Doc Dan]

One of the problems with MAP is that companies use that as the price they must sell it for and so the prices are high. At one time, KW and others used to offer a discount code where you could key in the code and see your reduced price at checkout. Something like that would bring back competitiveness without violating MAP advertizing rules (no, I did not misspell it).

[curlyhairedboy]

Just to take a parallel from the PC part world, a lot of websites get around MAP by only showing the price in cart. Interestingly, I don't know if this will work based on what I've seen on Massdrop.

The only thing Massdrop is able to do to 'lower' its prices below MAP is to 'include' a soft case that can be 'declined' for an extra discount at checkout. This is massively convoluted, and since Massdrop is already a members-only website, my conjecture is that Spyderco must have a MAP agreement that doesn't just preclude open advertising to the general public, but any listing of a lower price at all.

EDIT: of course Amazon being a high-volume retailer, they get to ignore it entirely.

[djrbas]

One dealer I've seen use the add to cart approach is Midway USA.

Right now looking at the listing for the Alcyone it says "Add to Cart for Price"

In the cart it is priced at $49.98 which is over a 12% discount from the Map price of $56.97

[phaust]

I think Spyderco is in some trouble and knows it, and they're trying to figure out how to fix things. They are making a lot of price changes. First, there is this MAP change. Then, look at how many expensive models got discontinued this year after a short time on market. Other expensive models now have simpler so cheaper models. Finally, the cheaper Manixes seem to have been a test which is now becoming a trend of making cheaper versions of popular models, as now we have the Chapparal and also the P2 also has been mentioned as being in line for a cheaper...err I mean "lightweight"... version.

[Ncmiked]

I'm going to have a wait and see attitude with the MAP increase. When it comes to knives, the knife itself has to excite my interest. The price is a secondary thought process. For example: The Spyderco Nirvana was an expensive knife by most people's standards but there were people who found value in that particular knife and made the purchase. Would a 5% increase have kept those same people away? Hard to say really but I doubt it. Speaking for myself, I've never had buyer's remorse after purchasing a Spyderco product. Can't say that about other things I've bought in my life. I hope my current view does not change with the impending increase. I have faith in the Spyderco team to come up with a fair and equitable solution.

[xceptnl]

How do people purchase them if the price they are selling them for is not the price that they are advertising or listing them at?

I wonder if the "actual price shown in cart" option skirts that MAP rule?

[Almoe66]

Back at the start of MAP in 2016, I decided to stop all purchasing of Spydercos except for sprints, exclusives, and discontinued. That held true for a year and in 2017 I decreased even more. Now it is only Para 2 sprints and exlusives and the odd sprint run as oppossed to the hunt for all released sprints in a given year. Heck, I even limited myself to one discontinued this year. Perhaps 2018 will find an even further reduction in spending.

All that to say I didn’t care for MAP then and certainly care less for it now and was surprised how once I stopped having to buy each new release, it became easier and easier to buy less and less.

I hold no ill will as I feel Spyderco should do whatever they feel serves the best interest and I in turn in 2016, I decided to do the same.