S35VN compared to VG-10 in Serrated Edge

[tangent]

Anyone with experience out there with these two steels in serrated? I like VG-10 in serrated and was thinking of getting a Native in serrated S35VN. I guess I'm just curious about edge retention and corrosion resistance. Thanks.

[Cliff Stamp]

It is fairly difficult to compare edge retention in serrated knives because of the way serrated knives dull and the fact that even measuring the sharpness isn't straightforward with any kind of precision. If you look at them in plain edge then you can extrapolate and say you would expect a small advantage for S35VN in low stress cutting where blunting was mainly by slow wear (ropes, cardboard) and no significant advantage in heavy cutting where blunting was by rolling/chipping (dirty/used materials). The corrosion resistance of both are fairly high, it is rare to have problems reported with either.

[Blerv]

I think it's more a case of whether you like Seki or Golden knives. As Cliff mentioned, in use I expect edge retention differences (or naked-eye observations) will come down to variables outside the elements.

[JD Spydo]

It is fairly difficult to compare edge retention in serrated knives because of the way serrated knives dull and the fact that even measuring the sharpness isn't straightforward with any kind of precision. If you look at them in plain edge then you can extrapolate and say you would expect a small advantage for S35VN in low stress cutting where blunting was mainly by slow wear (ropes, cardboard) and no significant advantage in heavy cutting where blunting was by rolling/chipping (dirty/used materials). The corrosion resistance of both are fairly high, it is rare to have problems reported with either.

Cliff I totally concur with what you're saying regarding rating blade steel for serrated knives. The reason I tend to rave about certain steels I tend to like better for Spyderedged/serrated blades is solely based on performance I've experienced personally. I've chimed in on your thread before saying that steels like 440V, ATS-55 and AUS-8 which are some of my favorites are solely based on the luck I've had with them. It seems to me like blade steels with more of a "toughness" aspect to them seem to work better for me than super hard steel like ZDP-189, M390 or even S90V for that matter.

It seems like the steels that rate over 59 on the Rockwell hardness tests tend to chip or deform more on serrated edges more than they do with steels with a better toughness rating do>> well at least that's my experience anyway. I would never buy a Spyderedged blade with ZDP-189 for instance. I think even Spyderco said they wouldn't make any more Spyderedged blades with ZDP-189 because of performance failures they've experienced with them. However with all of that being said my experiences using plain edged blades with CTS-XHP give me the gut feeling that it might just be a good steel for serrated edges>> but again I'm basing that solely on my personal experience rather than a scientifically controlled stress test.

The only relatively hard steel I've found that has good properties for serrated blades in my experience has been 440v ( S60V) and it seems to do fairly well with a plain edge too. I really wish they would come up with some type of a performance test for blade steels that they would want to use for Spyderedges or any type of serrated edge for that matter.

With all the hoopla aside I will go on record to say that I have had better than average luck using Spyderedged blades with VG-10 which I also find is a really decent steel for plain edges as well. Because VG-10 is actually my main USER blade steel I tend to like for everyday uses>> I truly find it to be very dependable overall with both edge types.

[twinboysdad]

Dying to try Cruwear serrated, needs to happen JD

[Cliff Stamp]

The only relatively hard steel I've found that has good properties for serrated blades in my experience has been 440v ( S60V) and it seems to do fairly well with a plain edge too.

That is a really interesting observation because a standard hardening on S60V leaves it with very low durability. It would be interesting to know if Spyderco hardened it the same in the serrated and plain edged patterns.

[JD Spydo]

The only relatively hard steel I've found that has good properties for serrated blades in my experience has been 440v ( S60V) and it seems to do fairly well with a plain edge too.

That is a really interesting observation because a standard hardening on S60V leaves it with very low durability. It would be interesting to know if Spyderco hardened it the same in the serrated and plain edged patterns.

I have wondered about that myself regarding what type of heat treat, quenching and hardening that Spyderco would do on their Spyderedged blades compared to their blades that they designate for plain edges? However regarding 440V in particular when sharpening that blade steel whether it would be on a fully serrated blade or a plain edged version it is still a monster of a steel to sharpen. Of all the blade steels on all of the Spyderco knives I've sharpened over the years I still find that 440V is in the top 2 or top 3 steels of all time as far as being extremely difficult to sharpen. Truly I have more difficulty sharpening 440V than I have with ZDP-189, M390 or even S90V.

I can say with 100% honesty that a fully serrated 440V blade I've found is just as much a monster to sharpen as a plain edged 440V blade is. it's really strange too because some of these newer/better blade steels are better overall performers than 440V. And you would think that the more difficult a steel is to sharpen the better it would be performance-wise.

Now back to the subject of this thread which is "VG-10 versus S35V for serrated edge performance">> I've yet to own a S35V blade yet however the new Native 5 SE is high on my current list and I'll certainly pull this thread back up when I do find out first hand which one is best. But with the great results I've had with VG-10 in just about any application I find it highly doubtful that S35V would overshadow it>> but I am anxious to see how good this new Native 5 is in Spyderedge.

[Cliff Stamp]

And you would think that the more difficult a steel is to sharpen the better it would be performance-wise.

Grindability is basically the inverse of wear resistance, so a very low grindability means a very high wear resistance and S50V has extremely high wear resistance - however when knives blunt they do so by more than wear, there is also deformation and fracture and corrosion. A steel could have less wear resistance than S60V but more strength, toughness and/or corrosion resistance so it could still perform much better in various cutting applications.

[Nasgul]

Same subject but for Plain Edge.
How S35VN is compare to VG-10 and ZDP-189.
Where S35VN is situated ? for sharpenning and edge resistance, etc.
Few words about those questions please.

[Joris Mo]

Dying to try Cruwear serrated, needs to happen JD

+1

[endgame]

I use vg10on all my chef knives and love it.great edge retention and way easier to get a screaming edge then s35 and s30.I use these blades all day long and I mean use them.my sous chef has chris reves chef knives in s35 and it takes him forever to get the screaming sharp if he can.I have a slicer and urilty serrated in vg10 and still have not sharpend them in over a year they are still very sharp.the s35 has got dull a wile ago and not used since.he loved the chris reves chef knives but not anymore he curses how dull they are and how much he spent.

[JD Spydo]

Dying to try Cruwear serrated, needs to happen JD

Cruwear isn't the only one of the newer blade steels I would like to see in Spyderedge>> you can add XHP, S3V, and CTS-BD1 to the growing list as well. I do agree with what I believe Cliff is hinting at>> I would like to see a viable rating system for blade steels in fully serrated/Spyderedge compared to how they perform in plain edge. The blade steel does indeed make a difference in Spyderedge just as much as it does in plain edge in my humble opinion.

As I said earlier I can't speak about S35V because I haven't gotten a Native 5 yet but I've never had a problem using serrated VG-10 blades. To me VG-10 is just a great dependable general use steel and I still like it better than S30V and a few others I could mention>> and for either edge type as well. But a rating system for Spyderedged blades just seems like a great idea being that Spyderco is at this time the undisputed king of serrated edges IMO.

[endgame]

Vg10 is a workhorse in the kitchen.

[Cujobob]

Some steels I'd like to see in serrated knives: AEB-L, elmax, Nitrobe 77, and maybe LC200N (can't recall how tough that steel is). I would think toughness and edge stability would be primary factors for steels in serrated knives. Followed by corrosion resistance (because of the type of work often associated with them)

I would think s35vn would be a bit too difficult to sharpen in serrated form.

Has anyone compared VG-10 with H1?

[Cliff Stamp]

Some steels I'd like to see in serrated knives: AEB-L, elmax, Nitrobe 77, and maybe LC200N

That is a curious selection as three of those are of a very specific class of steel and one is completely different.

[Cujobob]

Elmax is said to be tough, corrosion resistant, and I believe is finer grained than S35VN though I could be wrong. I know Elmax is often considered similar to S35VN which I don't think would excel in a serrated format, but I haven't read many concerns of Elmax chipping out similar to S35/S30V.

[Cliff Stamp]

The toughness of Elmax is similar to m390 and S90V :

- http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/D ... _19432.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In regards to grain structure, the PM steels have generally fine grain, similar to 1095 or M2. This is also very dependent on how it is hardened. If you want to you can make D2 have finer grain than even standard M2 just by various cycling and/or working.

[HarleyXJGuy]

Because this thread needs pictures and I would marry Sal for a SE Cruwear Millie.

[Joris Mo]

Because this thread needs pictures and I would marry Sal for a SE Cruwear Millie.

+1 (on you marrying Sal )
In my believe that SE Military and PM2 should return anyway, how does H1 hold when flatground?
(because of health reasons I have to somewhat stay away from water and definitely don't spend much time in salt water so I never really tried out H1 )
Shouldn't there be SE Salt PM2's & Military's? :D
(after that SE Cruwear Military off course..)