Take an appropriate steel or steel alloy, and combine it at the molecular level (no traditional smelting furnace) with carbon based fullerene, or polymer, and get the strength and hardness of steel with the elasticity and corrosion resistance of polymer, as well as moldability of the polymer.
Good idea?
Plassteel/Polymer Steel
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Strong-Dog
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
"the strength and hardness of steel with the elasticity and corrosion resistance of polymer, as well as moldability of the polymer."
Pretty sure that is a contradiction, no?
Pretty sure that is a contradiction, no?
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SolidState
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
You are absolutely correct. This guy likes to posit asinine inferences, but refuses to gain any actual education on any topic scientific. I'm not sure if it is trolling, or extremely lackadaisical scientific ignorance. I used to try to actually share observations made from real data, but it became rapidly clear that the OP does not actually care to learn anything about any of the topics; he simply wants a pat on the head for knowing a few buzzwords and being able to retype them.Strong-Dog wrote:Pretty sure that is a contradiction, no?
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
Actually, with all due respect, you're wrong, solidstate, on this one. Those properties are not contradictory at all. Check out the known properties of fullerenes. Fullerenes provide a combination of strength and hardness that rival steel, while being lighter, and more flexible. I am honestly surprised that you would make such a vitriolic response in light of your incredible knowledge on these things.
For example, and this is an old reference, look at this:
http://physics.aps.org/story/v8/st27" target="_blank
" A tough material composed of nanoscale spheres might be just the thing for aerospace and other hi-tech industries. The new material, described in the 26 November print issue of PRL, is made from spherical cages of carbon and nitrogen atoms and has a rare combination of strength and elasticity. Initial tests show that it springs back when squashed and is chemically stable."
Look especially here:
" Hultman and his colleagues measured the mechanical properties by indenting the fulleride with a sharp diamond-tipped probe. According to those experiments, the material is hard yet springy. It’s somewhat harder than titanium nitride, says Hellgren, “but this material’s high elasticity is way superior to that of titanium nitride.” He thinks that the nano-onions “act like tiny rubber balls,” making the material good for protective coverings of hard disks, bearings, and medical implants. Hultman says the team has promising results showing the material to be bio-compatible, as well."
HARD YET SPRINGY. Somewhat harder than titanium nitride....but ELASTICITY LIKE RUBBER BALLS.
And look at the date that this was released:
Focus: Bonding Bucky-Onions
Published November 13, 2001 | Phys. Rev. Focus 8, 27 (2001) | DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevFocus.8.27
There are thus three possibilities: 1 world industry has ignored this fantastic material that could replace steel alloys if mass-produced,
2 They have not yet figured out an economically inexpensive way to mass-assemble it, or...
3 Its gone Black Budget and its being produced for specific uses in that world...and it is not permitted to be mass produced for the everyday populace.
Second reference:
http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/carbon.htm" target="_blank
From the article:
" Russian scientists are making thin films of a ‘fifth form of carbon’ – whose chain length is limited only by the thickness of the material film.
Nearly as hard as diamond, it can be laid down on metals, polymers and elastomers without cracking or exfoliating and appears to be the ultimate material for resisting wear.
It also has unusual electrical properties, with potential as a new semiconducting material. And, if a method can ever be found to make it in bulk without breaking the chains, its tensile strength should be an order of magnitude stronger than nanotubes, which can themselves be six times as strong as the strongest steel."
" The other remarkable property, which gives it its bearing properties, is that it is highly compliant between the chains, making it a kind of super strength elastic velvet on the atomic scale. "
All of this reinforces my faith in a material that I can call "plassteel": Hardness and Strength of Steel, or greater, combined with the flexibility and elasticity if polymers/plastics. What we need to mass-assemble this type of stuff are molecular-scale hands, like nature uses enzymes and ribosomes as hands to assemble protein chains from amino acid molecules. Once we have that, human industry will produce 'plassteels' like mad.
More from the above referenced article:
" The new material was discovered by Professor Malvina Guseva, Dr Nikolay Novikov and Dr Vladimir Babaev. They were studying ion beam assisted plasma deposited carbon coatings with a view to improve adhesion and flexibility. They detected small amounts of the new form in 1983 and larger amounts in 1991. Realising its potential, they began targeted research in 1995.
Hardnesses of films of the new material are in the range 4,000 to 9,000 Hv. This compares with 10,000 Hv for diamond and up to 12,000 Hv for diamond-like carbon (DLC). It is worth remembering at this point, that it was Russian scientists who were the original discoverers of the techniques for vapour depositing diamond and diamond like carbon – technologies that have since been taken up all over the world. Bearing steel typically has a hardness of 650 to 850 Hv. One of the problems with diamond coatings for bearings is that as well as being hard it is also fairly brittle. Tetracarbon, on the other hand, is so easily stretched sideways that it can be laid down on elastomers.
In mechanical tests on silicone rubber, including elongations of 300 per cent and multiple deformations, the coating withstood the tests without visible damage. Neither cracks nor exfoliation could be seen. In adhesion tests, the new material was removed only with parts of the substrate material, so its adhesion to most substrates is higher than the strength of the substrate. The coating process is performed at temperatures of only 20 to 200 degrees C and so is applicable to polymers such as polyethylene and polyurethane as well as semiconductors, metals, glass and other materials."
For example, and this is an old reference, look at this:
http://physics.aps.org/story/v8/st27" target="_blank
" A tough material composed of nanoscale spheres might be just the thing for aerospace and other hi-tech industries. The new material, described in the 26 November print issue of PRL, is made from spherical cages of carbon and nitrogen atoms and has a rare combination of strength and elasticity. Initial tests show that it springs back when squashed and is chemically stable."
Look especially here:
" Hultman and his colleagues measured the mechanical properties by indenting the fulleride with a sharp diamond-tipped probe. According to those experiments, the material is hard yet springy. It’s somewhat harder than titanium nitride, says Hellgren, “but this material’s high elasticity is way superior to that of titanium nitride.” He thinks that the nano-onions “act like tiny rubber balls,” making the material good for protective coverings of hard disks, bearings, and medical implants. Hultman says the team has promising results showing the material to be bio-compatible, as well."
HARD YET SPRINGY. Somewhat harder than titanium nitride....but ELASTICITY LIKE RUBBER BALLS.
And look at the date that this was released:
Focus: Bonding Bucky-Onions
Published November 13, 2001 | Phys. Rev. Focus 8, 27 (2001) | DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevFocus.8.27
There are thus three possibilities: 1 world industry has ignored this fantastic material that could replace steel alloys if mass-produced,
2 They have not yet figured out an economically inexpensive way to mass-assemble it, or...
3 Its gone Black Budget and its being produced for specific uses in that world...and it is not permitted to be mass produced for the everyday populace.
Second reference:
http://www.shelleys.demon.co.uk/carbon.htm" target="_blank
From the article:
" Russian scientists are making thin films of a ‘fifth form of carbon’ – whose chain length is limited only by the thickness of the material film.
Nearly as hard as diamond, it can be laid down on metals, polymers and elastomers without cracking or exfoliating and appears to be the ultimate material for resisting wear.
It also has unusual electrical properties, with potential as a new semiconducting material. And, if a method can ever be found to make it in bulk without breaking the chains, its tensile strength should be an order of magnitude stronger than nanotubes, which can themselves be six times as strong as the strongest steel."
" The other remarkable property, which gives it its bearing properties, is that it is highly compliant between the chains, making it a kind of super strength elastic velvet on the atomic scale. "
All of this reinforces my faith in a material that I can call "plassteel": Hardness and Strength of Steel, or greater, combined with the flexibility and elasticity if polymers/plastics. What we need to mass-assemble this type of stuff are molecular-scale hands, like nature uses enzymes and ribosomes as hands to assemble protein chains from amino acid molecules. Once we have that, human industry will produce 'plassteels' like mad.
More from the above referenced article:
" The new material was discovered by Professor Malvina Guseva, Dr Nikolay Novikov and Dr Vladimir Babaev. They were studying ion beam assisted plasma deposited carbon coatings with a view to improve adhesion and flexibility. They detected small amounts of the new form in 1983 and larger amounts in 1991. Realising its potential, they began targeted research in 1995.
Hardnesses of films of the new material are in the range 4,000 to 9,000 Hv. This compares with 10,000 Hv for diamond and up to 12,000 Hv for diamond-like carbon (DLC). It is worth remembering at this point, that it was Russian scientists who were the original discoverers of the techniques for vapour depositing diamond and diamond like carbon – technologies that have since been taken up all over the world. Bearing steel typically has a hardness of 650 to 850 Hv. One of the problems with diamond coatings for bearings is that as well as being hard it is also fairly brittle. Tetracarbon, on the other hand, is so easily stretched sideways that it can be laid down on elastomers.
In mechanical tests on silicone rubber, including elongations of 300 per cent and multiple deformations, the coating withstood the tests without visible damage. Neither cracks nor exfoliation could be seen. In adhesion tests, the new material was removed only with parts of the substrate material, so its adhesion to most substrates is higher than the strength of the substrate. The coating process is performed at temperatures of only 20 to 200 degrees C and so is applicable to polymers such as polyethylene and polyurethane as well as semiconductors, metals, glass and other materials."
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Doc Dan
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
Steel making has been around at least 4000 years. Perhaps it is time to explore other possibilities?
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SolidState
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
Actually Spyderedge,
Your severe ignorance and selective reading abilities are at fault for your inability to observe the basic concepts at play here. You apparently have no clue what fullerenes are, or look like in an actual laboratory setting. You also have no idea how to operate an ion beam tool, or what the coatings you describe are in size, nor what large-scale production will entail. Further, you do not understand the outcomes of elasticity on crystal structure, nor how elastic deformation in metallic bonding is different from that of highly-molecular media like fullerenes. In fact, all bonds are springy, but not all materials at the macroscale retain their microscale properties. I hope you understand that you are talking about a nanoindenter being used on a powder, not a solid piece of material in the study. I hope you understand the electrical differences between the materials that you describe and that which we call metal, and that processing the two together drastically changes all interplays at hand.
Further, water molecules are hard but springy under your definition. Water molecules should be used in steel by your logic. Oh, wait, water isn't very soluble in steel, and will simply introduce oxygen defects into the structure. Oh wait, carbon is soluble in iron and will actually undergo chemical and physical changes upon intake into many metals - making both of the materials you list in your retort incapable of being part of steel without melting/dissolving either in part, or completely.
Your Ideas about possible reasons why the research is being held back are ignorantly conspiratorial and foundationless. The number of things that are neat at tiny scale and pointless to useless at large scale has more to do with this than anything else. You are biting on the hype marketing of somebody doing the nano equivalent of poking something with a stick.
Your second reference has nothing to do with what your initial post was saying either. That material will also be soluble in steel. Clearly you just went to google scholar or some such website to try to make yourself seem educated on the topic. Anyone with any materials science background will find your references to not be consistent. You are ignoring nucleation, directional growth, growth at all, solubility, macroscale material properties, and functional interconnections between materials. This is not scholarly research, it is exactly as previously described. Seriously, go and do some actual study on this, and talk to other people who understand the systems as well. Your displays of Dunning Kruger effect are astounding.
With all due respect, the stuff you are positing is worthy of ridicule, and your disinterest in actually actively studying any of this is proof that certain forms of ignorance are more comforting to you than actually joining the field, learning the models, and moving any of this forward in any real fashion.
Your severe ignorance and selective reading abilities are at fault for your inability to observe the basic concepts at play here. You apparently have no clue what fullerenes are, or look like in an actual laboratory setting. You also have no idea how to operate an ion beam tool, or what the coatings you describe are in size, nor what large-scale production will entail. Further, you do not understand the outcomes of elasticity on crystal structure, nor how elastic deformation in metallic bonding is different from that of highly-molecular media like fullerenes. In fact, all bonds are springy, but not all materials at the macroscale retain their microscale properties. I hope you understand that you are talking about a nanoindenter being used on a powder, not a solid piece of material in the study. I hope you understand the electrical differences between the materials that you describe and that which we call metal, and that processing the two together drastically changes all interplays at hand.
Further, water molecules are hard but springy under your definition. Water molecules should be used in steel by your logic. Oh, wait, water isn't very soluble in steel, and will simply introduce oxygen defects into the structure. Oh wait, carbon is soluble in iron and will actually undergo chemical and physical changes upon intake into many metals - making both of the materials you list in your retort incapable of being part of steel without melting/dissolving either in part, or completely.
Your Ideas about possible reasons why the research is being held back are ignorantly conspiratorial and foundationless. The number of things that are neat at tiny scale and pointless to useless at large scale has more to do with this than anything else. You are biting on the hype marketing of somebody doing the nano equivalent of poking something with a stick.
Your second reference has nothing to do with what your initial post was saying either. That material will also be soluble in steel. Clearly you just went to google scholar or some such website to try to make yourself seem educated on the topic. Anyone with any materials science background will find your references to not be consistent. You are ignoring nucleation, directional growth, growth at all, solubility, macroscale material properties, and functional interconnections between materials. This is not scholarly research, it is exactly as previously described. Seriously, go and do some actual study on this, and talk to other people who understand the systems as well. Your displays of Dunning Kruger effect are astounding.
With all due respect, the stuff you are positing is worthy of ridicule, and your disinterest in actually actively studying any of this is proof that certain forms of ignorance are more comforting to you than actually joining the field, learning the models, and moving any of this forward in any real fashion.
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Strong-Dog
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
I just wanted to be sure, because while it sounded very contradictory, I am by no means knowledgeable in the area.SolidState wrote:You are absolutely correct. This guy likes to posit asinine inferences, but refuses to gain any actual education on any topic scientific. I'm not sure if it is trolling, or extremely lackadaisical scientific ignorance. I used to try to actually share observations made from real data, but it became rapidly clear that the OP does not actually care to learn anything about any of the topics; he simply wants a pat on the head for knowing a few buzzwords and being able to retype them.Strong-Dog wrote:Pretty sure that is a contradiction, no?
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: Plassteel/Polymer Steel
[quote="SolidState"]Actually Spyderedge,
" Your severe ignorance and selective reading abilities are at fault for your inability to observe the basic concepts at play here. You apparently have no clue what fullerenes are, or look like in an actual laboratory setting. You also have no idea how to operate an ion beam tool, or what the coatings you describe are in size, nor what large-scale production will entail. "
You are making an error common among people who are specialists in an area. I saw this before, where a chemist would look at a system of nanoscale gears, drives, and positioners, and dismiss it by saying, "Because we cannot yet build these things with present machine technology and factories, these cannot exist." The reality is this: I am discussing what we know is possible, based on known chemistry, but, which cannot yet be industrially mass-produced. Diamondoid materials, essentially, that are stronger than steel, lighter than steel, and which can be made more elastic than steel, and shatter-resistant, that never rust. I am not the only one mentioning this: http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI.htm" target="_blank
You skipped over an important part of my post, in which I made it clear, we cannot YET produce these materials with these properties manifested at the macroscale, but once we have MOLECULAR-LEVEL MANIPULATORS, manmade analogs of the biological ribosomes, enzymes, and polymerizers, THEN we will be able to cheaply mass-produce these super-strong, super-tough, super-lightweight materials. That is the missing component between what is now discovered at the nanoscale, and what will then be made. Is that understood?
Here is a technical book that was published, filled with sources, references, and supporting data:
http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm" target="_blank
You can read the text for free online.
By the way, I love steel, and I am not saying steel will suddenly vanish. We will be able to make all forms of steel we currently make, AND, new forms of steel, as well as new compounds that can be integrated into steel and with steel, that we have never made before.
And a sincere question: Why do you come off with such a "biting" attitude towards me? I never expressed that towards you. I show respect for you as a person.
http://metamodern.com/about-diamond-synthesis/" target="_blank
http://alglobus.net/NASAwork/papers/nan ... echnology/" target="_blank
I mean, c`mon man, we're talking about materials with a trillion pascals of strength. :)
Once you can assemble structures with atomic precision, you can take carbon atoms, and assemble them into interlocking fibers in diamond form, and the cracks are stopped by those fibers, like seashells remain tough ceramics where the cracks are stopped from propagating quickly via the same method: Molecular Lamination and Polymer-Ceramic compounds. You can also do the same with other materials like sapphire/aluminum oxide. Look at all the biomimicry development going on =)
" Your severe ignorance and selective reading abilities are at fault for your inability to observe the basic concepts at play here. You apparently have no clue what fullerenes are, or look like in an actual laboratory setting. You also have no idea how to operate an ion beam tool, or what the coatings you describe are in size, nor what large-scale production will entail. "
You are making an error common among people who are specialists in an area. I saw this before, where a chemist would look at a system of nanoscale gears, drives, and positioners, and dismiss it by saying, "Because we cannot yet build these things with present machine technology and factories, these cannot exist." The reality is this: I am discussing what we know is possible, based on known chemistry, but, which cannot yet be industrially mass-produced. Diamondoid materials, essentially, that are stronger than steel, lighter than steel, and which can be made more elastic than steel, and shatter-resistant, that never rust. I am not the only one mentioning this: http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI.htm" target="_blank
You skipped over an important part of my post, in which I made it clear, we cannot YET produce these materials with these properties manifested at the macroscale, but once we have MOLECULAR-LEVEL MANIPULATORS, manmade analogs of the biological ribosomes, enzymes, and polymerizers, THEN we will be able to cheaply mass-produce these super-strong, super-tough, super-lightweight materials. That is the missing component between what is now discovered at the nanoscale, and what will then be made. Is that understood?
Here is a technical book that was published, filled with sources, references, and supporting data:
http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm" target="_blank
You can read the text for free online.
By the way, I love steel, and I am not saying steel will suddenly vanish. We will be able to make all forms of steel we currently make, AND, new forms of steel, as well as new compounds that can be integrated into steel and with steel, that we have never made before.
And a sincere question: Why do you come off with such a "biting" attitude towards me? I never expressed that towards you. I show respect for you as a person.
http://metamodern.com/about-diamond-synthesis/" target="_blank
http://alglobus.net/NASAwork/papers/nan ... echnology/" target="_blank
I mean, c`mon man, we're talking about materials with a trillion pascals of strength. :)
Once you can assemble structures with atomic precision, you can take carbon atoms, and assemble them into interlocking fibers in diamond form, and the cracks are stopped by those fibers, like seashells remain tough ceramics where the cracks are stopped from propagating quickly via the same method: Molecular Lamination and Polymer-Ceramic compounds. You can also do the same with other materials like sapphire/aluminum oxide. Look at all the biomimicry development going on =)