Is the Native chief supposed to be hard to open?

[Wartstein]

Most people that have been here awhile, really don't care to see or hear about flicking. It screams "I'm new and have a lot to learn"

Comparable to a young guy getting a new exhaust on his car/truck/bike and revving it at every stop light. Most others just roll their eyes...

It's still a necessary part of the journey. I get where you're coming from Rick, I really do, but sometimes I think some things are best left unspoiled and enjoyed freely, if they're not hurting anyone, ocf. Like a loud exhaust, or flicking a Spydie.

Again: I completely agree that there is a share of folks who want to flick folders just cause they feel it is cool and want to show off.
And yes, this will often be not so experienced knife users.
And yes, while I think everyone should enjoy their folders as they choose too, I personally find this "behaviour" a bit annoying too!

But don´t you think you´re forgetting those who actually COME to prefer flicking as valid, quick, safe, and convenient method (just as valid as slow rolling) THROUGH a lot of experience?

No offense (!), but it seems a bit "arrogant" to me to belittle flicking as JUST a "show-off-newby-thing". It CAN be just that, and it often IS.

BUT:
When used properly flicking has its distinct pros (and cons) - see my previous post - , and experienced knife users might come to prefer it over slow rolling. Like I normally do, and while I am not a pro at for example sharpening compared to many here, I may say that I am certainly experienced in using knives and quite proficient in handling them. And I DON`T like to "show off" - generally and through flicking, and I don´t find the latter "cool" by any means - but just one useful and practical method.

So I think the negative opinions about flicking might be

a) mainly based on judging by how annoying show off folks (on youtube or wherever) do it

b) made by people who did NOT actually use this method over years and really discovered its pros and cons (did you?)

c) a bit like the "SE is hard to sharpen", "backlocks are hard to operate one handed", "FRN is cheap plastic" opinions - made by folks who never really tried and never really looked into those things and just repeat common "myths"

[aicolainen]

This discussion sure went off on a strange tangent.

Understanding your counterpart in online discourse can be hard. We make assumptions based on what little we read, and recognize patterns. In that regard I can see why Rick commented as he did, and it’s sound advice that’s relevant to almost everyone going through that phase of their knife journey.

Maybe he missed his target this time, but intentions matter. They came from the right place, as far as I can decipher a words on a screen.

I don’t have 40 years of experience with folding knives, not even a quarter of that, but I already know that most backlocks aren’t inherently as “flickable” as their detent ball based counterparts, and some may not be flickable at all. I know that going in, I don’t expect it and it’s not important to me.
What I also know, and where I fully support Wartstein is that this makes backlocks even more fun to master. And I too like master my knives.

You’re both right under different circumstances. This person is seemingly more experienced than his posts lend themselves to reveal. It’s an honest mistake IMO. Life goes on.

[Wartstein]

This discussion sure went off on a strange tangent.
....
I don’t have 40 years of experience with folding knives, not even a quarter of that, but I already know that most backlocks aren’t inherently as “flickable” as their detent ball based counterparts, and some may not be flickable at all. I know that going in, I don’t expect it and it’s not important to me.
What I also know, and where I fully support Wartstein is that this makes backlocks even more fun to master. And I too like master my knives.

You’re both right under different circumstances.
....

(EDIT: Rick, this is nothing against you. You are one of the members I respect most here when it comes to real use and experience, I just think in this particular case you are missing a part of the puzzle )

My friend,

- the "discussion went off on a strange tangent" just cause a new, but appearently experienced member asked if the Chief was harder to flick than other models, and basically got told not to bother cause flicking "screams I am new and have a lot to learn" anyway and "most people...here don´t care to see or hear about flicking"

Given that flicking open undeniably can be a very efficient, fast and convenient way of operation, this is like as if someone would ask "does VG10 respond differently to a certain stone than other steels" and gets the reply "don´t bother, VG10 screams beginner steel and most here see it that way" (when in fact - just like with "flicking" - experienced knife users actually might choose or prefer VG10 for certain reasons).

- Of course Rick is "right" , and I pointed that out several times: There IS that "newbie group" who wants to flick a knife just cause they think it is cool and that can be annoying indeed.

All I am saying is:

1.) When discussing "flicking vs slow rolling" only people who really used both methods extensively and seriously (NOT for "showing off") over a longer period of time should really judge and weigh in

2.) The broader picture should not get lost! Just cause flicking CAN be an annoying newbie thing, especially if done 100 times in front of a camera, on a completely different field it CAN )(not HAS TO!!) also be an actually quicker, more efficient and convenient and safer method for SOME experienced users

Just for illustration two short clips I made for another purpose, but this time focus on the OPENING:

It does look like a valid and good method of opening, just as slow rolling, doesn´t it?

https://streamable.com/myzlt

https://streamable.com/ar7okf

[Steeltoez83]

I'd be more interested in doing a wave style mod instead. In my opinion the chief carries well for its reach. And that mod makes sense on this model for me atleast. The model is named after Tribal leaders, not the paperboy. I personally don't put stock into reviewers promoting that feature or their spec repeat reviews. I lose interest watching them giving jobs with their hand and reciting blade specs.

[Michael Janich]

The Native, by design, has a concentric tang shape that results in constant, firm pressure of the lock bar during the blade's opening arc. The Native Chief does the same thing. The stronger and more constant the pressure of the lock mechanism, the more deliberate the effort required to open the knife and the less "flickable" it becomes.

I wrote an article for the September 2022 issue of the byte on the details of these design dynamics. If you really want to understand them, it might be worth a read: https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/september-byte. Scroll down to the "Edge-U-Cation" article.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Skar]

If you want to quickly deploy the chief, gravity opening is a great option.
I have used gravity opening on a number of knives and works well for the chief.

[ChrisinHove]

The Native, by design, has a concentric tang shape that results in constant, firm pressure of the lock bar during the blade's opening arc. The Native Chief does the same thing. The stronger and more constant the pressure of the lock mechanism, the more deliberate the effort required to open the knife and the less "flickable" it becomes.

I wrote an article for the September 2022 issue of the byte on the details of these design dynamics. If you really want to understand them, it might be worth a read: https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/september-byte. Scroll down to the "Edge-U-Cation" article.

Stay safe,

Mike

I must have missed that byte edition. Fascinating stuff.

I have always imagined that flicking back-locks increases wear of the mating surfaces, and so not desirable. I could be wrong.

[James Y]

The Native, by design, has a concentric tang shape that results in constant, firm pressure of the lock bar during the blade's opening arc. The Native Chief does the same thing. The stronger and more constant the pressure of the lock mechanism, the more deliberate the effort required to open the knife and the less "flickable" it becomes.

I wrote an article for the September 2022 issue of the byte on the details of these design dynamics. If you really want to understand them, it might be worth a read: https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/september-byte. Scroll down to the "Edge-U-Cation" article.

Stay safe,

Mike

I must have missed that byte edition. Fascinating stuff.

I have always imagined that flicking back-locks increases wear of the mating surfaces, and so not desirable. I could be wrong.

When I think of accelerated wear from flicking back locks, I primarily think of two things:

Tolerances loosening/becoming sloppy over time from the more stressful impacts from repeated flicking. Possibly from the effects of the momentum and weight of the blade swinging out and exerting greater pull on the pivot area at speed, and stopping with sudden impacts, done repeatedly over time. Which may become more obvious with longer, heavier blades.

Greater wear on the backspring "hook" that fits into the blade tang notch from insufficiently clearing it when unlocking.

Of course, the latter has very little to do with flicking itself. Except, perhaps, if someone obsessively flicks open and closed, trying for opening and unlocking/closing speed, without taking care to fully clear the notch and disengage the lock during closing. This would be different from what OP mentions his reasons for preferring flickability are.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Might be so, might not be so.

Jim

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

When I think of accelerated wear from flicking back locks, I primarily think of two things:

Tolerances loosening/becoming sloppy over time from the more stressful impacts from repeated flicking. Possibly from the effects of the momentum and weight of the blade swinging out and exerting greater pull on the pivot area at speed, and stopping with sudden impacts, done repeatedly over time. Which may become more obvious with longer, heavier blades.

Greater wear on the backspring "hook" that fits into the blade tang notch from insufficiently clearing it when unlocking.

Of course, the latter has very little to do with flicking itself. Except, perhaps, if someone obsessively flicks open and closed, trying for opening and unlocking/closing speed, without taking care to fully clear the notch and disengage the lock during closing. This would be different from what OP mentions his reasons for preferring flickability are.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Might be so, might not be so.

Jim

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

[The Mastiff]

James hits the nail on the head with this:

Flickability and "drop-shuttiness" is not a determination of level of quality. A back lock has the backspring, which creates greater closing bias and retention. It's not really designed for flicking. It's not going to fly open as smoothly as, say, a compression lock. With practice it can be flicked, but why? It still won't be like a comp lock.

If you want flicking and "drop shutty" stuff get something other than a back lock. If you want a knife that will last forever with little care and stays tight for a lifetime get a Spyderco backlock. I have a couple that are in their third decade of use and show no signs of wearing out.

They will get smoother with use but hopefully won't get loose.

[The Mastiff]

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

That is my experience with Spyderco back locks and I have 3 I bought in 1992-1993. They should outlast my now 35 year old son with regular use and maybe his kid with normal usage.

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

James hits the nail on the head with this:

Flickability and "drop-shuttiness" is not a determination of level of quality. A back lock has the backspring, which creates greater closing bias and retention. It's not really designed for flicking. It's not going to fly open as smoothly as, say, a compression lock. With practice it can be flicked, but why? It still won't be like a comp lock.

If you want flicking and "drop shutty" stuff get something other than a back lock. If you want a knife that will last forever with little care and stays tight for a lifetime get a Spyderco backlock. I have a couple that are in their third decade of use and show no signs of wearing out.

They will get smoother with use but hopefully won't get loose.

And I get that. And i understand about the back lock spring and all that. I was never expecting the chief to open as fluidly as say the pm2 or manix. I was just wondering if they broke in and got a little easier to open over time that's all. And even when I do edc it I can slow roll it I just need to practice that

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

That is my experience with Spyderco back locks and I have 3 I bought in 1992-1993. They should outlast my now 35 year old son with regular use and maybe his kid with normal usage.

very cool. thats all I wanted to know!

[brancron]

As others have mentioned, lock backs (or back locks, same thing) have a spring which creates a bias towards closure. They also don't have detents. The spring pressure combined with the lack of detent makes flicking non-ideal. But some back locks can still be flicked open. It depends on the geometry of the "opening arc," i.e. the length and angle of the curve that that the blade follows as it's opened. For example: I find the Massad Ayoob to be very easy to flick open (both thumb flick and Spydie flick), which is primarily because of its intentionally-designed short opening arc, despite being a lock back
.

[James Y]

When I think of accelerated wear from flicking back locks, I primarily think of two things:

Tolerances loosening/becoming sloppy over time from the more stressful impacts from repeated flicking. Possibly from the effects of the momentum and weight of the blade swinging out and exerting greater pull on the pivot area at speed, and stopping with sudden impacts, done repeatedly over time. Which may become more obvious with longer, heavier blades.

Greater wear on the backspring "hook" that fits into the blade tang notch from insufficiently clearing it when unlocking.

Of course, the latter has very little to do with flicking itself. Except, perhaps, if someone obsessively flicks open and closed, trying for opening and unlocking/closing speed, without taking care to fully clear the notch and disengage the lock during closing. This would be different from what OP mentions his reasons for preferring flickability are.

Those are just some of my thoughts. Might be so, might not be so.

Jim

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

That smoothing out does happen naturally with use, over time. I have back lock knives, including from Spyderco, from the late '90s that still lock up as solidly as when they were new, but their actions are very smooth.

What I was talking about was *accelerated* wear over time, from excessively flicking back lock knives. There are some who obsessively flick and shut their knives, over and over and over again, sort of like having a worry stone. Which is totally fine; it's their knives. How people enjoy their knives is nobody's business but their own. But some people consider flickability and drop-shuttiness to be what determines a knife's quality.

And I read your follow-up post where you mentioned that wasn't your purpose for wanting flickability.

Also keep in mind that the Native 5 and the Native Chief have Spyderco's re-engineered, Golden-made back lock design. It has a deeper lock notch in the blade tang, and will usually have a stiffer back spring, and will lock up tighter, than the Seki-made back locks. At least mine do. To me, the differences in opening tension are very slight, but noticeable.

When I want to, I can flick my Native Chief open like the gentleman does in this clip. And I've never loosened the pivot on mine. If one reaIly needs to get it open fast, I can't imagine this not being fast enough. I almost never feel the need to flick mine open, though.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Sl4A5UKG8Yk?feature=share

Jim

[Wartstein]

....

...
I have always imagined that flicking back-locks increases wear of the mating surfaces, and so not desirable. I could be wrong.

Flicking open a backlock definitely and technically just has to cause more / faster wear than slow rolling, no doubt.

Initially I took that risk deliberately, because, as laid out in my lengthy posts, flicking usually just works a bit better, faster and more convenient for me (and I am talking about drawing the knife - one quick and efficient move of the thumb - open - use, NOT sitting around and frantically flipping a 100% times )

In reality I found that the wear coming from flicking must be so little that I never, ever noticed ANY (actually to my own surprise!). Even on my oldest Enduras, which have been flicked open thousands and thousands of times.

[Wartstein]

Perhaps I´ll make and post a clip later on the difference between "rolling" and "flicking" my Goddard (a bit similar to the Chief in size and position of the opening hole, though the Goddard actually even HAS a slight "hump" / "ramp").:

"Rolling" such a knife open just is slower and a tad more "awkward" compared to flicking (generally it is not "awkward" of course, just in comparison).
It takes a slight two part motion, while with flicking it is just one short, quick and very efficient move of the thumb (cause the thumb does not have to remain in the opening hole over the whole course of motion).

To sum it up let me say again:

I think people who reduce "flipping" on the potentially annoying and purposeless "showing off" but don´t see and never really tried and practiced the very practical and efficient side of it as one good opening method might potentially miss out on something.

Ad said:
- Just like those who do who believe that "SE is hard to sharpen", "backlocks are hard to close one handed", "H1 can´t hold an edge" and so on.
Without really looking into and seriously trying for themselves without prejudices, and then decide if whatever opinions out there are true for them too or not.

[Wartstein]

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

...
When I want to, I can flick my Native Chief open like the gentleman does in this clip. And I've never loosened the pivot on mine. If one reaIly needs to get it open fast, I can't imagine this not being fast enough. I almost never feel the need to flick mine open, though.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Sl4A5UKG8Yk?feature=share

Jim

This is what I mean.

The guy in the vid clearly is someone used to knives and just wanting to open his Chief in one quick and convenient manner. No "showing off", no "screaming I am new and have a lot to learn" imo.

Like me he probably happens to prefer this (flicking) method, while you (Jim) happen to prefer the equally good "rolling".

One thing is pretty clear though: IF one wants to get the Chief open as quickly as possible, I doubt anyone can match the speed of opening shown in the vid by rolling it open instead of flicking like in the vid (though I honestly and admittedly don´t see any scenario where the slightly quicker openiung might be necessary, aside from perhaps sd on which I can´t weigh in at all when it comes to knife use).

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

Its funny that you say that. when I think of breaking in I picture the metal surfaces basically polishing each other and springs losing their natural tightness and settling into a more normal pressure that they will keep for the better part of their lives

...
When I want to, I can flick my Native Chief open like the gentleman does in this clip. And I've never loosened the pivot on mine. If one reaIly needs to get it open fast, I can't imagine this not being fast enough. I almost never feel the need to flick mine open, though.

https://youtube.com/shorts/Sl4A5UKG8Yk?feature=share

Jim

This is what I mean.

The guy in the vid clearly is someone used to knives and just wanting to open his Chief in one quick and convenient manner. No "showing off", no "screaming I am new and have a lot to learn" imo.

Like me he probably happens to prefer this (flicking) method, while you (Jim) happen to prefer the equally good "rolling".

One thing is pretty clear though: IF one wants to get the Chief open as quickly as possible, I doubt anyone can match the speed of opening shown in the vid by rolling it open instead of flicking like in the vid (though I honestly and admittedly don´t see any scenario where the slightly quicker openiung might be necessary, aside from perhaps sd on which I can´t weigh in at all when it comes to knife use).

perfect. Thats all I wanted to be able to do like the guy in the video. I think its just a matte rof some practice, breaking in, and maybe a drop or two of kpl on the pivot and along the path the lock bar rides on the blade and i'll be good to go.

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

would it be safe to say the native 5 regular size would be much more difficult to flick open because of its size? And yes I am aware that if I buy one I am going into it knowing I may have a lot more trouble flicking it open if Im able to flick it open at all and would resign myself to it being a slow-roll-only knife

regarding wear and tear on knives: the guy who first introduced me to the pm2 and made me want to buy one which I did, was using it to cut something when I noticed the peculiar shape and how quickly he opened it. I asked to see it and hold it and it immediuately felt natural in my hand and it was the easiest opening knife I ever held. Thats what brought me to spyderco and this forum and my recent purchases.

It should be noted that he has had that knife for over 10 years and it was the only knife he ever used or carried and he flicks that thing open like it offended his mother. so I really dont think wear and tear is an issue at least for comp locks. That pm2 of his worked just as good as mine did out of the box when I got it. Looked like sh*t from the abuse he put it through, but worked flawlessy.