Let's talk about cutting edge vs blade length

[kobold]

The Swayback and the GB2 are also good at it.

[sal]

Discussions like this are always interesting to read and the thoughts shared about the subject. I believe there is in there somewhere an attempt to make some type of valuer judgment. The late Jess Horn taught me that "Handles are for holding and blades are for cutting". They don't have to have a relative relationship to each other, except as the "eye" sees it. The scalpel would not perform better if the blade were longer or the handle were shorter". Your cutting needs, blade shape, hand size and blade control will have more bearing on what works best FOR YOU. That's why we offer so much variety....to kinda custom fit the knife to your needs and desires, for now and in your future as your needs/desires change.

sal

[Wartstein]

These discussions allows seem to forget that Sal and Eric often design knives to meet certain blade length restrictions while avoiding a slavish devotion to the blade/handle ratio nonsense.

Sometimes, perhaps.

But not to seldom there´d be both space left to fill in the handle AND the "next" legal limit (so for exmple 3.0; 3.5) is not reached at all.
I could handle a RockJumper and think it is a great knife, so don´t me wrong when I say: It is also a bit confusing to me and an extreme example for what I mean:
- The blade of the Rock Jumper is 3.08 ", so OVER the 3.0" limit anyway but far from the 3.5" limit
- There´d be a lot of space left in the handle for a longer blade
- One explicit goal of the RockJumper was (quote) " "One of the primary design goals of the RockJumper was to pack as much cutting edge as possible into its pocket-friendly size..." (see "Byte" Sept 2020 https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... ember-2020)...

For some reason I don´t mind that rather short blade in the wharnie RockJumper, but I certainly WILL in a Leaf Jumper if this one also will not offer more egde / blade. Would be kind of a missed opportunity in my book.
One thing that is so great in my Stretch 1 (so the disco´ed one): The compact size, but still a lot of cutting edge (more than Manix, PM2, Endela.. in a clearly shorter closed package).
I´d have hoped that the Leaf Jumper will be another "Stretch 1" in that regard, for those who like a compact size / long edge option.
But if the Leaf Jumper will not have a longer blade than the Rock Jumper (and I seem to recall that Sal already confirmed this):
- It will have the exact same closed size as my Stretch 1
- But my Stretch 1 has about 15 % more blade and 10% more edge than the current RockJumper, despite the former even has a choil and the latter not.

I get and value the concept of giving a given blade the best possible handle, and not care too much about blade to handle ratio.
But on the other hand: A longer edge just IS more versatile. Believe it or not: I often can feel the difference between the 73mm edge of my Manix 2 and the 81mm edge of my (thus more versatile) Stretch 1...

[Evil D]

I wouldn't say I obsess over the ratio, I'm more interested in not having certain things like ricassos or sharpening notches or other kinds of snag points. I would be happy to see every millimeter of edge squeezed into a Rock Jumper handle but I'm ok with the overall design too. The ratio doesn't stop me from buying but it definitely is something I consider a plus when it's good.

[Wartstein]

I wouldn't say I obsess over the ratio, I'm more interested in not having certain things like ricassos or sharpening notches or other kinds of snag points. I would be happy to see every millimeter of edge squeezed into a Rock Jumper handle but I'm ok with the overall design too. The ratio doesn't stop me from buying but it definitely is something I consider a plus when it's good.

This.

At least nowadays for me...
I used to bit a lot more obsessed with a good edge to handle ratio in the past.

These days it´s like: If I HAD the choice between the current 72mm edge RockJumper (less than Manix, Endela...) or a 79mm edge RockJumper (more than a PM2, and the space in the handle would allow for this): I´d happily pay 20% more for the latter, but since I like the overall design I don´t "hate" the former at all.

It is just that for me a longer edge DOES make a do-it-all EDC folder more versatile indeed, but is really not the only thing that counts.

[Evil D]

I wouldn't say I obsess over the ratio, I'm more interested in not having certain things like ricassos or sharpening notches or other kinds of snag points. I would be happy to see every millimeter of edge squeezed into a Rock Jumper handle but I'm ok with the overall design too. The ratio doesn't stop me from buying but it definitely is something I consider a plus when it's good.

This.

At least nowadays for me...
I used to bit a lot more obsessed with a good edge to handle ratio in the past.

These days it´s like: If I HAD the choice between the current 72mm edge RockJumper (less than Manix, Endela...) or a 79mm edge RockJumper (more than a PM2, and the space in the handle would allow for this): I´d happily pay 20% more for the latter, but since I like the overall design I don´t "hate" the former at all.

It is just that for me a longer edge DOES make a do-it-all EDC folder more versatile indeed, but is really not the only thing that counts.

A big part of what I'm buying is the edge. Of course ergonomics are a major detail so the handle really matters more than the blade, but once I have a known handle design that works for me like a Rock Jumper, then my focus shifts to getting all the bang for my buck as I can get, and getting "the most knife" inside that package is the same as getting more for my money. That's how I see it at least. I fully understand the scalpel analogy but I also see that as a very specific cutting tool for a very specific medium. You wouldn't expect a barber to shave your face with a 1 inch blade straight razor if he had the option for a longer blade.

[Wartstein]

A big part of what I'm buying is the edge. Of course ergonomics are a major detail so the handle really matters more than the blade, but once I have a known handle design that works for me like a Rock Jumper, then my focus shifts to getting all the bang for my buck as I can get, and getting "the most knife" inside that package is the same as getting more for my money. That's how I see it at least. I fully understand the scalpel analogy but I also see that as a very specific cutting tool for a very specific medium. You wouldn't expect a barber to shave your face with a 1 inch blade straight razor if he had the option for a longer blade.

Fully agreed.

As said, I am (we are..) talking about general, versatile do it all EDC folders.

As you say, in a more specialized cutting tool a shorter blade/edge might be better or at least more convenient (just if one really knows that they´ll never need more edge for the specific tasks they plan to do).
But in a knife that I carry for whatever cutting task might occur: I just can´t see where lets say 7mm more edge really hurt, while they sure can come in handy starting by just cutting up an apple, plus statistically (and most times also practically) will stay sharp longer.
One thing also to consider: A blade (very slowly) gets shorter anyway over the (sharpening) "life" of a folder.

To point that out again:
There is a difference between:
1.) Changing a whole design in order to achieve more edge (so shortening or getting rid of a finger choil for example)
and
2.) Change absolutely nothing except making the blade a bit longer so that it fills more/all of the availble space in the handle. Don´t see how this can hurt.
... And especially if, like it is with the RockJumper, this would not lead to the knife getting illegal in places where it was not with the shorter blade (btw: One could also add a few mm to the Endela, Manix... blade and they´d still remain under the 3.5" limit, while they exceed the 3.0 limit anyway)

[Brock O Lee]

Optimal edge-to-handle ratio is not a metric I chase. I like both the Spydiechef and the Military with their comparable edge lengths. To be honest, for food prep I prefer the longer blade of the Military, to provide more reach to not get food in the pivot. In that sense I do not see the choil to be part of the handle.

I like how comfortable and small the Spydiechef carries, but I prefer the bigger and more comfortable handle of the Military when putting power into a cut, like cutting thick cardboard.

I think it is ok to see handle length and cutting edge length as two seperate attributes that can be enjoyed individually for what they bring to a design.

I like Sal's perspective, handles are for holding and blades are for cutting.

[Farmer]

That's why we offer so much variety....
sal

Hey Sal. I wonder if I could gently challenge that notion of variety in the context of cutting edge to handle ratio?

Sure there are plenty of choices in the small and big knife categories. For example you might choose between the Ladybug (high ratio) vs Dragonfly (low ratio) if you want a small knife, or the Endura (high) vs Stretch 2 (low) if you want a big one.

But that choice is absent in the mid-sized knife category, especially if you prefer backlocks. Now it's certainly true that if you don't mind a low ratio then you can choose from the huge variety of configurations available through the Delica, Salt, and Native lines. But when it comes to high ratios then the only modern model I can think of is the SpyOpera, which is expensive and comes in just one configuration. In other words, if you want a reasonably priced and mid-sized backlock with a high edge to handle ratio (which normally means no choil) then you're out of luck.

[Wartstein]

That's why we offer so much variety....
sal

Hey Sal. I wonder if I could gently challenge that notion of variety in the context of cutting edge to handle ratio?

Sure there are plenty of choices in the small and big knife categories. For example you might choose between the Ladybug (high ratio) vs Dragonfly (low ratio) if you want a small knife, or the Endura (high) vs Stretch 2 (low) if you want a big one.

But that choice is absent in the mid-sized knife category, especially if you prefer backlocks. ...

I have to agree. Especially since Caly 3.5 and Stretch 1 got discontinued (both with really good edge to handle ratio, despite featuring a choil).

Also that's why I said in a previous post that I'd have hoped that the Leaf Jumper would offer a blade that fills all of the available space in the handle.

[kodai78]

Interesting that scalpels came up. Surgeons mostly use a #10, #11, or a #15 blade. Those #’s are the most common shapes. In my experience the surgeon chooses one and uses that shape for everything that they use a blade for. So you put out a #15 for surgeon X for all their surgeries. The blade is sterile and single use and attaches to a sterile stainless steel handle. It’s accounted for before, and after surgery, then disposed of. Even long incisions can be made with a very short blade. Most of the cutting in surgery is done with something besides the scalpel though. Either scissors of some kind or electro cautery is used more.

[kobold]

A very cool mod:


The edge is now about as long as on the Native Chief.

[Bill1170]

Manix 2, I hardly recognized you! That is a lot of regrind, converting the blade choil to usable edge.

The profile where handle meets blade reminds me of a Sebenza.

[Bolster]

A very cool mod:

Agreed! I'd like to buy THAT Manix!

[Joshua J.]

Choils are fine, we just need more 5" blades.

Also, without a Choil I would prefer the knife have a Flipper.
Regardless of what you think of lock safety, it is nice to have some area of the blade that won't cut your finger off when closing.

[Wartstein]

Manix 2, I hardly recognized you! That is a lot of regrind, converting the blade choil to usable edge.

The profile where handle meets blade reminds me of a Sebenza.

Perhaps cause it´s a Manix 2 XL?

/ Kidding aside, I really like that mod!! Especially since it shows what long-edged designs would generally be possible with the CBBL!
(Really wonder for the 100th time why there aren´t more Spydies using this great lock: It is a Spyderco invention, just like the comp.lock, ambidextrous and has that "backlock-ish" closing bias that liner- and comp.lock don´t offer).

[The Deacon]

I'll gladly trade edge length for a usable 50/50 choil. The way I see it, a 50/50 choil means the difference between a 2 finger grip and a 3 finger grip on a small knife, a 3 finger grip and a 4 finger grip on a medium one, and offers grip options on a large one. That said, I can see where "all edge" blades can have an advantage. The only thing I can't see any advantage to are designs like the Delica and its kin, where you have neither. I know the rationale for them is lock geometry, but a 50/50 choil accomplishes the same thing. That said, I know they're among Spyderco's most popular models so, as is often the case, I'm in the minority.

[Wartstein]

I'll gladly trade edge length for a usable 50/50 choil. The way I see it, a 50/50 choil means the difference between a 2 finger grip and a 3 finger grip on a small knife, a 3 finger grip and a 4 finger grip on a medium one, and offers grip options on a large one. That said, I can see where "all edge" blades can have an advantage. The only thing I can't see any advantage to are designs like the Delica and its kin, where you have neither. I know the rationale for them is lock geometry, but a 50/50 choil accomplishes the same thing. That said, I know they're among Spyderco's most popular models so, as is often the case, I'm in the minority.

- "Longer cutting edge" is not necessarily the same as "no choil".
As said in previous posts: Quite often it is just about making the blade (and by that the edge) longer, if there is space in the handle for that, especially if this would not exceed the "next" legal limit. Stretch 2, PM2, Endela, RockJumper... all could have more blade and cutting edge but remaining otherwise 100% the same in handle length, handle design and so on.

- On the Delica/Endura" ricasso" style folders:
Perhaps you are in the minority concerning this particular classic models, but generally many here seem to prefer a choil over a "ricasso". Totally fine, and totally personal preference, but I have to state once more:
For me the "Delica ricasso style" offers the best of "all worlds"
1.) Provides a lot of space on the actual (FRN, G10 part of...) the handle (the Native 5 or Para 3 don´t do that, BECAUSE of the choil)
2.) The "ricasso" is in my use actually a perfect spot to choke up on. Gives me more control than many choils (but is admittedly not as comfortable in prolongued use, but not uncomfortable either. And normally I don´t use a folder over a long period of time generally and especially in the choked up grip)
3.) with the "ricasso" design the hand is placed reasonably close to the edge already when the knife is gripped in a not choked up grip (cause the "ricasso" usually ist shorter than a dedicated finger choil)

For me a choil really makes sense on Spydies as small as the Chap: Here it is actually really mandatory in order to get a good four finger grip with my hand size (of course this matter varies depending on the hand size of a person)

[twinboysdad]

Cali 3.5 was a great example. Handle basically a Delica, blade almost an Endura and apologies no pics. I sold my only one a few years ago

[kennethsime]

A very cool mod:

Kobold, did you do that yourself? It looks fantastic!

I've thought of doing similar - I'd love a thread on this topic.