Spyderco and hrc

[clint229]

In my part of the knife community, every knife company should start any introduction to a knife of interest with the blade steel and its hrc. That is a world of pertinent information. This is the nine tenths of the required knowledge lying below the surface of what we can see. Everything that Spyderco does as a knife company puts it on the leading edge. But when they neglect to immediately tell you the hrc of the blade steel, they betray all the other top notch corporate decisions. Is hiding the hrc so important that the loss of industry leadership is worth it? Hiding the hrc is, in my opinion, disturbingly out of character.

[standy99]

No, keeping your proprietary information in any industry is paramount.



So I’m a M4 fanboy. Love it have several knives from several makers. Have used it for 20 years and sharpened it hundreds of times. All makers blades.
The one thing I do know, Spyderco does it the best. It might be an extra half or quarter Degree ° of heat treat that does it but Spyderco does it best.

Why should Spyderco share their special heat treats to everyone.

Today everyone is about heat treats. Believe me, not all knife companies are as honest about true heat treats as you would like to believe. Many since Magnacut have been caught out and then proceeded to justify why they were lower than they declared.

I know Spyderco heat treats are solid and don’t need to know the exact number.

[Jesla]

Just wondering… What is your “part of the knife community?”… not being rude, just trying to understand where this coming from…

[The Mastiff]

Just wondering… What is your “part of the knife community?”… not being rude, just trying to understand where this coming from…

The part that hangs out on youtube to decide what works best for the industry and lives with charts from cedric and ada ( or whatever they call themselves) being evidence of something.

[weeping minora]

Just wondering… What is your “part of the knife community?”… not being rude, just trying to understand where this coming from…

The part that hangs out on youtube to decide what works best for the industry and lives with charts from cedric and ada ( or whatever they call themselves) being evidence of something.

Y'all sound like a bunch of amateurs.

It's 2024 folks, we all know that knowing the HRC is more important than even knowing the steel itself!

Honestly, I find it alarming that so many folks don't ever bat an eyelid at demanding such HRC numbers from Chinese heat-treated super steels from the big Chinese companies that pump out such product, yet slander Spyderco for not publishing their HRC numbers of even the lesser-alloyed steels that they use.

Something smells fishy.

Kudos to Spyderco for keeping their silence in the face of such scrutiny. The proof is in the pudding, yet it seems that those with the most vocal disdain haven't even had a taste. If you truly feel disrespected by Spyderco keeping their lips sealed regarding such information, or if the performance of the knife you purchased isn't suffice for whatever you feel the knife is worth versus what you paid, Spyderco will make it right and they will assess the knife for possible performance flaws. They want to know that type of stuff, as mistakes (or rather, variables) in the production setting do occur. We all benefit from those outcomes, rather than discussing the trivialities of numbers and what we believe they must be, for the knife to "make the cut".

[Danke]

More HRCs = More Instagram Likes.

It's priceless information really. Can you just imagine your followers laughing in your face when you post a picture of a 73 HRC knife when 74 HRC is more?

[ZrowsN1s]

In my part of the knife community, every knife company should start any introduction to a knife of interest with the blade steel and its hrc. That is a world of pertinent information. This is the nine tenths of the required knowledge lying below the surface of what we can see. Everything that Spyderco does as a knife company puts it on the leading edge. But when they neglect to immediately tell you the hrc of the blade steel, they betray all the other top notch corporate decisions. Is hiding the hrc so important that the loss of industry leadership is worth it? Hiding the hrc is, in my opinion, disturbingly out of character.

Hardness is just one of MANY dimensions that make good steel. Knowing only a blades hardness, you know almost nothing about the steel. Heat treat (a ton of variables just in this), geometry, steel, and yes hardness and you have a better understanding of what you're working with. It's like thinking just because a knife is stamped with s30v it's good steel. I'll take Spyderco's S30V etc. over other brands. Because they consider all the variables in their steel. Not just hardness. You cant say Spyderco M390 at 60hrc is the same as BrandX M390 at 60hrc. The performance between the two could be vastly different because of other factors. This is one of the reasons they don't advertise their hardness numbers widely. Though if you follow the forum, it is shared occasionally. They don't want people to look at the steel and hrc and think that that tells them how good the steel is, when it's only a small part of it.

Back before I really understood this I started an HRC Database here on the forum. Have a look. But know that it's only a small piece of the puzzle. viewtopic.php?t=83847

MAXAMET Manix 2 LW - (66.2 - 69) HRC
MAXAMET Paramilitary 2 - 68 HRC
H-1 (SE at the edge, not sure which model) - 68 HRC
MAXAMET Mule - (67 - 68) HRC
REX45 Military - (66.3 - 67) HRC
REX45 Paramilitary 2 - (65 - 66.7) HRC
ZDP-189 Mule - 66.4 HRC
K390 Police 4 G-10 - (64 -65.5) HRC
4V Manix 2 (Marbled CF) - 65 HRC
4V Para 3 (St. Nicks Exclusive) - (64.8 -65) HRC
H-1 (PE at the edge, not sure which model) - (64-65) HRC
ZDP-189 Endura 4 - (63 -65) HRC
REX45 Para 3 - 64.7 HRC
M4 Paramilitary 2 - 64.3 HRC
M4 Manix 2 - 64.2 HRC
M4 Shaman - (63.9 - 64) HRC
ZDP-189 Delica 4 (Saber) - (63.5 - 64) HRC
S110V Military - (63-64) HRC
K390 Mule - (62-64) HRC
Cruwear Manix 2 - (63.2 - 63.7) HRC
M4 Gayle-Bradley 2 - 63.2 HRC
ZDP-189 Dragonfly 2 - 63.1 HRC
52100 Mule - 63.1 HRC
10V K2 - 63 HRC
M4 Para 3 - 63 HRC
B75P Mule - (62-63) HRC
Cruwear Military - 62.9 HRC
52100 Paramilitary 2 - 62.8 HRC
Cruwear Mule (re-release) - (62.1 -62.8) HRC
Cruwear Paramilitary 2 - (62 - 62.8) HRC
Super Blue Mule - 62.5 HRC
PMA11 Mule - 62.5 HRC
M4 Mule - (60.8 - 62.5 HRC)
M4 Gayle-Bradley 1 - 62.5 HRC
K390 Urban - 62.5 HRC
M390 Paramilitary 2 - 62 HRC
S110V Manix 2 - 62 HRC
XHP Chaparral FRN - 62 HRC
Cruwear Paramilitary 2 - 62 HRC
S110V Paramilitary 2 - (60.9 - 62) HRC
PSF27 Mule - 61.9 HRC
Cruwear Para 3 - 61.7 HRC
XHP Para 3 - 61.5 HRC
Cruwear Military - 61.1 HRC
M390 Military - 61 HRC
Super Blue Calypso Jr. - (60.8 - 61) HRC
S30V Amalgam - 60.7 HRC
20CV Manix 2 - 60.6 HRC
M390 Mule - (59.2 - 60.5) HRC
XHP Military - 60.5 HRC
S30V Para 3 - 60.3 HRC
XHP Mule - (60 - 60.3) HRC
S30V Manix 2 - 60.1 HRC
BD1N Para 3 LW - 60 HRC
BD1N UKPK - 60 HRC
S110V Mule - 60 HRC
S90V Military - 60 HRC
S30V Manix 2 (Backlock) - 60 HRC
S30V Military - 60 HRC
S35VN Native 5 LW - 60 HRC
RWL34 Mule - 60 HRC
20CV Mule - 60 HRC
M390 Para 3 - (59.6 -60) HRC
S90V Manix 2 LW - 59.9 HRC
S35VN Para 3 - (59- 59.6) HRC
S90V Mule - 59.2 HRC
BD1 UKPK SLIPIT - 59.1 HRC
S30V Paramilitary 2 - (58.8 - 59) HRC
S30V Delica Wharncliffe - 59 HRC
S30V Delica - 59 HRC
BD1 Manix 2 LW - 59 HRC
ELMAX Mule - (58.3 -58.5) HRC
LC200N Spydiechef - (57.8 - 58.1) HRC
VG-10 Delica 4 - 58 HRC
VG-10 Endura - 57.9 HRC
N690 Roadie - 57.8
8Cr13MoV Tenacious - 57.6 HRC
8Cr13MoV Tenacious (Red) - 56.8 HRC
LC200N Mule - 56.8 HRC

[zhyla]

This is the nine tenths of the required knowledge lying below the surface of what we can see.

This is the funniest part about this post: it’s just wrong. I’m not opposed to target hardness being made available. But without edge geometry it’s pretty useless information.

Most customers won’t really know what to do with this info and simply buy the hardest steel they can find. Which doesn’t do anyone any good.

No, keeping your proprietary information in any industry is paramount.

Uh, what? You can’t keep hardness a secret. It’s a property of the blade. It’s easily measurable.

[Granoo Fink]

AF?

[standy99]

This is the nine tenths of the required knowledge lying below the surface of what we can see.

This is the funniest part about this post: it’s just wrong. I’m not opposed to target hardness being made available. But without edge geometry it’s pretty useless information.

Most customers won’t really know what to do with this info and simply buy the hardest steel they can find. Which doesn’t do anyone any good.

No, keeping your proprietary information in any industry is paramount.

Uh, what? You can’t keep hardness a secret. It’s a property of the blade. It’s easily measurable.

I know it’s measurable. Funny as I was going to write “you can measure it” but didn’t because I knew I would get…”Not everyone has a HT tester”

Still don’t think it’s up to Spyderco to list all the Hardness of every steel

[standy99]

Honestly, I find it alarming that so many folks don't ever bat an eyelid at demanding such HRC numbers from Chinese heat-treated super steels from the big Chinese companies that pump out such product, yet slander Spyderco for not publishing their HRC numbers of even the lesser-alloyed steels that they use.

Something smells fishy.

Nothing wrong with Chinese Heat Treat

[Deadboxhero]

Same HRC, very different levels of toughness between different heat treatments.

HRC doesn't tell the full story.


"Has to be (insert favorite bias) hardness for best performance can't be higher or lower"

Nah, that's not how it works.

We do want sufficient strength and toughness but the HRC doesn't specifically tell us that 61 is better than 62 etc.

It's the microstructure.

[ChrisinHove]

Now that is an interesting chart…

[sal]

Hi Clint,

Welcome to our forum.

I made the decision not to publish Rc decades ago, simply to avoid argument. There are many people that have their own opinion on Rc or limited understanding about how the hardness fits into the cutting edge puzzle. I believe much of that has been mentioned here. It's not a secret, as mentioned, any of our knives can be tested by anyone.

Hope you enjoy your time here.

sal

[Notsurewhy]

In my part of the knife community, every knife company should start any introduction to a knife of interest with the blade steel and its hrc. That is a world of pertinent information. This is the nine tenths of the required knowledge lying below the surface of what we can see. Everything that Spyderco does as a knife company puts it on the leading edge. But when they neglect to immediately tell you the hrc of the blade steel, they betray all the other top notch corporate decisions. Is hiding the hrc so important that the loss of industry leadership is worth it? Hiding the hrc is, in my opinion, disturbingly out of character.

Don't be discouraged by the pile on that you're receiving. This is a Spyderco forum and the locals sometimes get a bit restless when they perceive a newcomer as challenging their favorite brand. We're overall a pretty good group though.

HRC is easy to measure and if it's very low, that's generally bad, so many people erroneously equate that to mean higher always equals better. If you're interested in steel properties, deadboxhero (aka triple B, aka big brown bear) has a wealth of info as does Dr Larrin at knife steel nerds.

Metallurgy is complex. You'll learn quickly that the rabbit hole is deep and wide. Phase diagrams, carbide formation, tempering and annealing, steel composition and edge geometry create a surpassing amount of variables. I understand just enough to know that I know very very little.

Welcome aboard. I think you'll find that Spyderco puts far more thought and research into this stuff than most knife companies, but if you really need to know the HRC, there are plenty of knife companies out there.

[Steeltoez83]

Usually takes 3-5 fresh edges to really see what the steel is truly capable of anyways. I run my own cut testing and it's a great feeling to see spydercos s35vn outperform other brands with the same listed steel at a lower price point.

[Jesla]

I got a pm… he has legitimate reasons for his post. Let’s cut some slack and help the dude. He is only trying to learn…. We all started some where…

[yablanowitz]

I have been cutting him slack, mostly because I figured it was an April Fool's Day prank. Yes, we all have to start somewhere, but if he truly wants to learn, I suggest he start by learning to communicate in a less belligerent manner.

[sal]

Hey Jesla,

Perhaps he should discuss the question here instead of emailing you? He asked a legitimate question, and you say he has legitimate reason. Though for him to assume that it makes a company bad for not giving that information indicated that more edge-u-cation was needed.

sal

[The Mastiff]

I got a pm… he has legitimate reasons for his post. Let’s cut some slack and help the dude. He is only trying to learn…. We all started some where…

We are not so bad that you need to defend him. I agree with Jack though. I thought it was a joke at first also and then realized he was serious.

I had a much worse first thread way back when I first started but I figured it out. I'd bet he can also.