Upping the price.

[ladybug93]

So... Since this thread has attracted so much attention from the man himself, I have a question. It's not a loaded question except in the sense I personally prefer one model to the other...

Why is a Shaman $100 more than a Manix 2?

the shaman scales are contoured using unicorn horn abrasives and the stonewash is achieved with tiny crystals that are said to come from the tears of pixies who have lost their happy thoughts and can no longer fly.

but seriously, i've been asking these questions since the shaman underwent its multiple price hikes in its early life. when it first came out, it was priced like a pm2, which at the time was only a little more expensive than a manix.

there are a lot of reasons the shaman pricing doesn't make sense to me and i've gone over it a few times on the forum with varying degrees of accusatory disdain in my tone. ultimately, i've just settled on being happy to never own one.

i don't buy the cost plus margin equation because of apparent inconsistencies such as this one, but i can't blame spyderco for trying to make a few extra bucks on a model they think will sell better, or trying to reach a different part of the market through pricing. they are a company in a free, capitalist country, after all. it does bother me a little when we're given an explanation that doesn't make sense though. it feels dishonest to me. if it's marked up for some other reason, just own it and say so. if it really costs that much more to produce, just explain why. people are going to buy it anyway, so i don't see the point in continuing to insist on repeating the same equation and acting like it's a mystery why it's so much more expensive.

on the other hand, you can't ask ceos of most other companies why they price models a certain way and expect to get any answers. i like that about spyderco and sal's typical transparency and engagement is one of the reasons i stay here and prefer this company to others. at the end of the day, the man has an empire to run. i won't always agree with what he has to say, but i do admire him as an innovator a great deal for what he's contributed to the world, and for his willingness to engage with the community.

fortunately for me, i prefer the manix to the shaman as a design anyway and there are plenty of other great spyderco models that are a better value than the shaman that are keeping me busy and happy.

speaking of which, here's something else to consider (which is a big part of why i've stopped asking this question)... the shaman price isn't ever coming down, so there is only one way we'll see spyderco close the gap here if we keep insisting it doesn't make sense. let's keep the sensibly priced models sensibly priced by not demanding the pricing is more consistent with the most unreasonably priced models.

[toomanyquestions]

I believe your thinking is the same kind of thinking that has caused most manufacturers all over the world to make their product in China....less work and more profit. That's the trap. Low cost high quality is the bait.

I don't think that there is any question that Chinese makers can make good quality. They make tanks and jets. They've put people in space. I don't consider it fair competition for them to have such a low value Yuan. But trying to change that in World Trade is above my pay grade. We make some knives in China to try to service the budget market.

...we will do our best to compete with China, and most of our business will come from others that don't want to bow to Chinese manufacturing.

The value of the Yuan is an excellent point. Let me attempt to expound for those who may not be familiar with the topic.

Many economists believe that China's currency policies have artificially depressed the value of the Yuan in an effort to give Chinese export products an unfair price advantage in western markets. Said differently, if the value of the Yuan was allowed to float freely on the basis of international demand for the Yuan, the prices of Chinese goods (including pocket knives) would likely move upward.

This article (from 2022) notes the clear link between currency value and trade: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63056680?at_medium...

[Danke]

I would expect there have been a lot more of the Manix 2 made over a longer time. Volume lowers prices. Second I would expect the Shaman to be slightly more expensive to produce.

So instead of focusing on why a Shaman costs $$$ focus on how great it is that a Manix is only $$.

[cabfrank]

Thanks for the link, chronovore. I read that thread long ago, and forgot about it. It was good to reread it years later.

[Skywalker]

Historically the Manix 2 has also been a poor price comparison within Spyderco's lineup. Sal's commented on here before that the base model Manix 2 was a bit of a pricing experiment, where Spyderco intentionally priced it using less than their standard margin to see how sales might be affected.

I don't know if that's still true but it's worth noting a satin blade, standard steel, black G10 Manix 2 has MSRP of $216 vs $265 for the same configuration PM2 today.

For those seeking good value from Golden, consider the CBBL.

[ladybug93]

Historically the Manix 2 has also been a poor price comparison within Spyderco's lineup. Sal's commented on here before that the base model Manix 2 was a bit of a pricing experiment, where Spyderco intentionally priced it using less than their standard margin to see how sales might be affected.

I don't know if that's still true but it's worth noting a satin blade, standard steel, black G10 Manix 2 has MSRP of $216 vs $265 for the same configuration PM2 today.

For those seeking good value from Golden, consider the CBBL.

the manix vs the yojimbo, pm2, and shaman is an interesting comparison. when i first made it, the yojimbo was close to the manix and the pm2 and shaman were close. then the shaman skyrocketed. the pm2 trailed after it, but obviously not as far. now the yojimbo is in the pm2 range. i'm sure it won't be long before the manix follows suit, unless it stays lower because it's just not as popular, which would be fine by me.

still, looking at these four models and comparing the specs and prices, the vast differences make no sense from a cost plus margin equals price perspective. there has to be some other factor to the equation that probably has to do with either popularity or target market.

to be clear, i don't really care so much that there is some other factor. i care more that there is an insistence that there isn't, when there clearly must be.

regardless, i'm still here, so it must not bother me that much. i still think sal is a pretty cool dude. i still buy spyderco knives. i still recommend spyderco to people all the time. at the end of the day, it's like people have said throughout the thread... we either buy less, buy different, or try not to complain about it.

[zhyla]

Was making the kids some lunch today and grabbed a Z-cut out of the drawer and remembered this thread. You can still get these for $22 which honestly is a good price. Looks like they changed the serration pattern though.

[spydergoat]

to my untrained eye the shaman looks somewhat more expensive to produce than say a pm2 due to thicker 3d sculpted g10 handles, size and thickness, lots of gimping, and stonewash finish

[sal]

Hi Ladybug,

The potential "popularity" of a model carries no weight in our pricing meeting, which are really Day-mares every year.

The Shaman went through several prices due to analysis of the process, showed us we couldn't continue to manufacture the model at the selling price as it was.

Cost plus margin is cost of manufacture, not cost of materials. set up times for machinery, some locks are more complex to manufacture than others, steel costs and cost of processing different steels is different (eg; number of passes in sharpening, EDM requirements, heat treating differences, belt costs, etc.)

I guess it's kinda simple. It's possible that because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means you can't see it, unless there were in the plant watching each step?

Or I'm lying?

sal

[ladybug93]

sal, i don't think you're a liar. and i don't think you owe me, or any of us, any explanations. it's your company. you obviously know what you're doing because we're all fanatics, regardless of some complaints about life getting too expensive.

i'm just going to quote my last paragraph again...

regardless, i'm still here, so it must not bother me that much. i still think sal is a pretty cool dude. i still buy spyderco knives. i still recommend spyderco to people all the time. at the end of the day, it's like people have said throughout the thread... we either buy less, buy different, or try not to complain about it.

[sal]

Hi Ladybug,

I'm not disputing you. Just messin' with you.

As mentioned, these are tough times financially for all. We get a decent salary, but we're feeling it as well. Solution? Beats the **** outa me? But I don't see it getting better in the near future. Seems like everything from Politics to Nature is coming in from all sides.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

Hi Ladybug,

I'm not disputing you. Just messin' with you.

As mentioned, these are tough times financially for all. We get a decent salary, but we're feeling it as well. Solution? Beats the **** outa me? But I don't see it getting better in the near future. Seems like everything from Politics to Nature is coming in from all sides.

sal

Just think, in 30 years I can tell my grandkids l was lucky enough to have the opportunity to buy a Shaman for under $300. Everything goes up, but the only thing worse than inflation is deflation for an economy.

Also mentioned it once before but not sure you saw it I sent you an email on 2/6/24 12:08 Colorado time, to your spyderco.com email address you put on the forum, regarding one of your employees, Michael, who has continued to do an amazing job. I know you’re busy but if you have a chance please take a look at it. Employees like that are why I keep coming back to Spyderco regardless of price.

[sal]

Hi William,

I looked for it but couldn't find it. I've been having some issues with the Spyderco email address.

I just sent you an email.

sal

[VandymanG]

Spyderco does a wonderful job of creating opportunities for us to get amazing opportunities to experience various super steels. As it has been stated before they don’t make a lot of money off of the mules but they still do it. They also make it easy to get great quality knives for cheaper through the exclusive knives they put out. Don’t over look the FRN scaled knives that also provide cheaper priced super steel knives. Yeah prices go up but opportunities are still available for lesser prices. Plus as others stated shop the twice yearly sales.

The most important thing they offer is priceless and it’s why I’ll stick with them despite some knives being more expensive. That more important thing they offer is a community that cares and is often like one big happy bickering family. Thank you SPYDERCO for caring it is greatly appreciated. And yeah prices go up but it’s not Spyderco’s fault for the inflation it’s a world wide problem currently.

[WilliamMunny]

Hi William,

I looked for it but couldn't find it. I've been having some issues with the Spyderco email address.

I just sent you an email.

sal

Just sent the email, thanks again.

[RamZar]

Yeah prices go up but opportunities are still available for lesser prices. Plus as others stated shop the twice yearly sales.

If it’s not a need look for items to go on sale, be discontinued, secondary market (new or used) like BF or Reddit, FB, IG, etc.

In 2023, there was a MAP holiday in July, discontinued list in August and another MAP holiday in November. However, no guarantee the MAP holidays will continue. During a MAP holiday try to hold out for 45%+ off MSRP.

[Bolster]

Seems like everything from Politics to Nature is coming in from all sides.

So it's not just me who's thinking that?

[apollo]

Hi Ladybug,

I'm not disputing you. Just messin' with you.

As mentioned, these are tough times financially for all. We get a decent salary, but we're feeling it as well. Solution? Beats the **** outa me? But I don't see it getting better in the near future. Seems like everything from Politics to Nature is coming in from all sides.

sal

Hi Sal as far as i have seen and have bin told and shown by Eric you may have not found the “solution”yet but you are all trying harder then anyone could ever ask to find it. And for that i say thank you to the entire company of Spyderco. Now regrettably i am one of the people that will need to tune down my purchases aslong as this inflation lasts but i will keep buying what i can/want especially every kind of g10 / micarta based Manix of Manix XL you can produce that is for the global market.

[wrdwrght]

Seems like everything from Politics to Nature is coming in from all sides.

So it's not just me who's thinking that?

Everything, Everywhere, All at Once…not exactly enjoyable.

[sal]

Hey Apollo,

Thanx for the encouragement. We make product for all walks of life. We do not expect that all will be able to afford all.

sal