Ok, could it be that LC200N fares better against Magnacut than some might think?

[Wartstein]

... Added to my post above:

A bit later in the vid it gets mentioned (by the kc guy) how tough and "un-chippy" LC 200N is.

This relates to my original question that made me start this thread:

IF LC is really that "tough" (and that´s what I found too to in my limited experience), and NOT too far in wear resistance from MC: LC should potentially be able to tolerate a bit more acute edge angles, which could enhance the edge retention again..

Anyway - from all I´ve heard so far I´d maybe take LC over MC if I was in the market for a folder with super high corrosion resistance.. the difference in edge retention is perhaps is not that substantial (?), LC could be tougher and easier to sharpen. Some strong points for that steel imo.

In any case I think no one can say LC is obsolete cause MC is here now.
(Watching the latest vids with Eric MC could have some advantages for the makers though).

[weeping minora]

... Added to my post above:

A bit later in the vid it gets mentioned (by the kc guy) how tough and "un-chippy" LC 200N is.

This relates to my original question that made me start this thread:

IF LC is really that "tough" (and that´s what I found too to in my limited experience), and NOT too far in wear resistance from MC: LC should potentially be able to tolerate a bit more acute edge angles, which could enhance the edge retention again..

Anyway - from all I´ve heard so far I´d maybe take LC over MC if I was in the market for a folder with super high corrosion resistance.. the difference in edge retention is perhaps is not that substantial (?), LC could be tougher and easier to sharpen. Some strong points for that steel imo.

In any case I think no one can say LC is obsolete cause MC is here now.
(Watching the latest vids with Eric MC could have some advantages for the makers though).

This is certainly a topic that no one has a definitive answer for, and brings up a great topic for discussion.

I look at it like this, a steel with the ability to allow for and hold a thin geometry does not inherently increase its edge retention, but its retention in cutting ability. You can fine tune this inherent ability through heat treatment. Just because you are lowering the angle to an edge of any given piece of sharpened steel, does not mean you are somehow increasing that particular steels edge retention, as you cannot add wear resistance to a steel that has a set resistance to wear (via its chemical composition). You are therefore, increasing the cutting ability through geometry. The ability for any given steel to accommodate such characteristics is found within its chemistry, and crafted in its heat treatment. You will inherently need more strength and toughness to allow for more strenuous tolerances (the forces applied and the steels ability to withstand such forces when under stress and strain) that the apex/edge will endure within a thinner cross-section during use.

The raw wear resistance and edge retention might be very similar between MagnaCut and LC200N as steel, but once you fine tune their chassis (blade shape and grind), and make upgrades to their engines (geometry and edge), which will ultimately edge out in performance? For most folks who have the experience, MagnaCut seems to be the clear winner. From the datasheet, and overall informational knowledge shared thus far comparing and contrasting the abilities of these two steels, MagnaCut seems the steel that would have the ability to achieve greater resistance to wear, and have greater edge retention, as an edged tool. This is however, merely a possibility, and will only be revealed from the applied heat treatment.

The end-line user is the biggest factor, and therefore the "moving target" (the variable in inability to completely answer this question) for all of these questions regarding "better or best", regardless the scientific testing. To be clear, there are scientific parameters that do show better, or best when comparing two (or more) steels for certain catagorical differences (as illustrated most here as edge retention, and wear resistance), however, it is the usage and maintenance of such edged piece of steel that creates an unknown variable that is exclusive to the user. To that point (pun?), I have never seen a steel so controversially juxtaposed as LC200N, due to such variation in usage and maintenance from the ELU.

[cycleguy]

For me it is more a matter of “green” or “yellow”.

I do like the green one better and is what I go with.

However, I need a folder in Magnacut so I will pick up a yellow one.

Niggle on….

CG

[Drubieg]

Yes

[JSumm]

Hey Gernot! I have not experienced Magnacut. Very curious about it and how it ultimately compares to other steels. The below example is why I do not think that toughness alone translates into better edge stability. This is just my experience with LC200N (Pac Salt PE and recently acquired SpydieChef) and K390 (Endela PE, Endura PE, and recently acquired Endela SE).

I have never seen LC200N chip out in my use, but I have had plenty of rolls. More than any other Spyderco steels I have used. Could it be its high toughness yet relatively low hardness compared to others? I don't know.

I had some beer cans out today and wanted to play around with some serrations. The K390 Endela serrated pierced and sliced some cans like it was nothing. I had my Spydiechef on me too, so thought I would give it a go. First can pierced with the Chef bent the very slight tip of the edge. Just happened to run my finger down the edge and felt something grab. No damage to the K390 Endela or its serrations through a few cans, though I have managed to bend and break off some of its tips recently. Not sure what I did that on. The Endela with its thinner tip seemed to hold up better where LC200N rolled a bit. This has been my experience using it on my Pac Salt (rolling) which sees a lot of use over the summer vs my K390 Endela in Plain Edge that even my wife can't seem to destroy. Though K390 is NOT nearly as tough as LC200N, toughness alone doesn't necessarily transfer to the edge. In my use, K390 seems to hold that edge under abuse much better.

Does LC200N roll so much it turns me off? Absolutely not! It performs very well. I cannot get it to rust even when I wear it in the pool and in the ocean IWB. It sharpens ups nicer than anything else I have experienced. It is a fantastic steel, but I wouldn't say it is close to K390 on edge stablity. I have not tried Magnacut, but I guess it would depend on the heat treat and what Spyderco is trying to achieve with it. If they are shooting for higher corrosion resistance and not nescessarily higher edge retention that may change its performance and put it closer in line with LC200N. That is way above my pay grade and knowledge however. I'll go back to cutting up beer cans while someone else answers that.

LC200N after piercing one can. As to the bent tips of my K390 Endela a few weeks ago, I don't know. I still haven't made an opinion on K390 in serrations. Just so you know, my bias in steel is towards Cruwear. Very tough and holds up to abuse very well at the edge. Also sharpens like a dream.

[Wartstein]

Shot Show 24 with Michael Janich - did NOT watch the vid yet (no time), but appearantly it is mainly about the "Salt" steels, could be interesting for this thread

https://youtu.be/53YTYJz0yM8?si=8_hchAlEOyyXWLOj

[RugerNurse]

I do like the Eric at the shot show interviews stressed that H2, LC200N, and magnacut all have different strengths of rust resistance.

[Larrin]

Shot Show 24 with Michael Janich - did NOT watch the vid yet (no time), but appearantly it is mainly about the "Salt" steels, could be interesting for this thread

https://youtu.be/53YTYJz0yM8?si=8_hchAlEOyyXWLOj

Mike is the man!

[Wartstein]

Shot Show 24 with Michael Janich - did NOT watch the vid yet (no time), but appearantly it is mainly about the "Salt" steels, could be interesting for this thread

https://youtu.be/53YTYJz0yM8?si=8_hchAlEOyyXWLOj

Mike is the man!

Hello Larrin,

since you chimed in: Perhaps you´d care to share what in your view could be situations where LC200N could potentially be the better choice over "your" Magnacut?

I am really a bit lost here (hence I started the thread): Listening to Mike in the vid makes me feel again like in a folder Magnacut should be the better choice over LC in almost every situation (unless one absolutely needs that appearantly a tad higher corrosion resistance of LC and wants a knife that is super quick to sharpen).

Could one reason for that Spyderco offers the same models in both MC and LC be that they just still have enough LC200N in stock and completely understandably want to use it up and bring it to the market? But eventually Magnacut will completely take over (at least in Golden knives), even more so since Eric hinted that LC is not that easy to produce and to source for a knife maker?

[Larrin]

LC200N has higher toughness and corrosion resistance than MagnaCut. MagnaCut is capable of higher hardness (64 vs 60 or so) and MagnaCut has much higher wear resistance.

[ladybug93]

[Coastal]

For some of my uses -- fishing, kayaking, beach wear, cycling -- a Salt steel is so desirable as to preclude using anything else.

In the same blade shape, I enjoy the feel and appearance of the slightly heavier, hollow-ground H1/H2 blades compared to LC200N, and I trust the stronger tip more for my uses. I also really like how well H1/H2 takes a shaving-sharp, coarse edge with little effort.

On the other hand, it's really hard to argue with a steel that has the toughness and wear resistance of MagnaCut, and is at least in the corrosion-resistance discussion with H1/H2. For me, the odd man out is LC200N, even though it also takes a nice edge easily.

In the future, I doubt I'll buy an LC200N knife unless its price or design makes it irresistible. Examples of the latter are the Waterway and the Quiet Carry Drift LC, which I'd take in any steel.

To me, H1/H2 and MagnaCut are each more compelling than LC, and with both available, well...

[weeping minora]

We obviously need more experience with what Spyderco are doing, with their heat treatment, to spread better information and credible resource.

Ultimately: Buy, try, and fly; or let it lie.

[ladybug93]

For some of my uses -- fishing, kayaking, beach wear, cycling -- a Salt steel is so desirable as to preclude using anything else.

In the same blade shape, I enjoy the feel and appearance of the slightly heavier, hollow-ground H1/H2 blades compared to LC200N, and I trust the stronger tip more for my uses. I also really like how well H1/H2 takes a shaving-sharp, coarse edge with little effort.

On the other hand, it's really hard to argue with a steel that has the toughness and wear resistance of MagnaCut, and is at least in the corrosion-resistance discussion with H1/H2. For me, the odd man out is LC200N, even though it also takes a nice edge easily.

In the future, I doubt I'll buy an LC200N knife unless its price or design makes it irresistible. Examples of the latter are the Waterway and the Quiet Carry Drift LC, which I'd take in any steel.

To me, H1/H2 and MagnaCut are each more compelling than LC, and with both available, well...

i was a huge fan or lc200n when it came out and i still really like it in pe. i didn't care for it in se on my caribbean as much as i do my h1 se pac salt. that's not to disparage the caribbean. it's a wonderful design and execution, in my opinion.

i totally get where you're coming from though. i'd rather have se h2 than se lc200n and id rather have pe magnacut than pe lc200n. my spydiechef would be an example of a design i want enough to have pe lc200n, and i still have no complaints.

given the options we have though, i'd personally prefer a pacific salt in hg se h2 and a native chief in pe magnacut over their lc200n counterparts.

[Zucchini52]

Used my Spydiechef one day for mostly food prep and somehow it took a very small nick about a half inch from the tip. Meanwhile, I've edc'd my Native 5 LW Magnacut for about a month, cutting down boxes for garbage day and it still looks brand new. Very impressed with the Magnacut, not so much with the LC 200N.
On another topic, I'd love to see a Sprint Run Superleaf in Magnacut, M390 or Damasteel, with slightly slimmer blade stock. I edc'd my Superleaf for about a year before putting it into retirement, and a Sprint of this would be exciting.

[Wartstein]

LC200N has higher toughness and corrosion resistance than MagnaCut. MagnaCut is capable of higher hardness (64 vs 60 or so) and MagnaCut has much higher wear resistance.

Thanks, Larrin!

Makes me wonder a bit what Eric meant in the shot show vids by saying something along the lines that edge retention and wear resistance (he used both terms) of LC and MC could be really close, and it would be not "totally obvious" that MC holds an edge longer... (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96011&start=40#p1767794).

Anyway:

- In summary to me personally it looks like corrosion resistance in reality is on par between LC and MC in most realistic use cases.

- The question remains how much value the higher toughness of LC could potentially bring to the table in real life, how much and what advantages (if any at all) one could get by that higher toughness in a folder(!) - taking into account that MC is also rather "tough" already anyway..
And CAN LC potentially tolerate more acute edge angles, cause it is "tougher"?
Or is it just the other way round and MC can tolerate more acute edge angles cause it is (can be) harder?
Or, most likely, does this depend on what and how one cuts with the knife?

- Will be interesting to see which way people go between MC and LC when both have been on the market for a longer period of time and real life experience with both gets more.
But I have a feeling that Magnacut will become the "go to" ffg Salt steel, and LC will rather be a niche steel or even fade out, at least in Golden knives (since Seki ffg Salts so far can´t be had in MC anyway).

[Michael Janich]

Dear Zucchini52:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Zucchini52]

Thank you for your kind welcome!

[Larrin]

Thanks, Larrin!

Makes me wonder a bit what Eric meant in the shot show vids by saying something along the lines that edge retention and wear resistance (he used both terms) of LC and MC could be really close, and it would be not "totally obvious" that MC holds an edge longer... (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96011&start=40#p1767794).

I won't try to interpret what Eric meant, but it would be very unusual for a steel with 1.35% C+N, 10.7% Cr, 4% vanadium, and 2% niobium to be very close in wear resistance to a steel with 0.7% C+N and 15% chromium. Vanadium and niobium carbonitrides are much harder than chromium carbonitrides. And of course the carbon is much higher in MagnaCut so we expect there to be more of those hard particles contributing to wear resistance. This is indeed what we find when analyzing the microstructure of both steels. So proposing that LC200N would have equivalent wear resistance doesn't pass the "smell test." Also of course I have my own wear resistance tests on the CATRA where the expected difference was measured.

[electro-static]

Hey Gernot! I have not experienced Magnacut. Very curious about it and how it ultimately compares to other steels. The below example is why I do not think that toughness alone translates into better edge stability. This is just my experience with LC200N (Pac Salt PE and recently acquired SpydieChef) and K390 (Endela PE, Endura PE, and recently acquired Endela SE).

I have never seen LC200N chip out in my use, but I have had plenty of rolls. More than any other Spyderco steels I have used. Could it be its high toughness yet relatively low hardness compared to others? I don't know.

I had some beer cans out today and wanted to play around with some serrations. The K390 Endela serrated pierced and sliced some cans like it was nothing. I had my Spydiechef on me too, so thought I would give it a go. First can pierced with the Chef bent the very slight tip of the edge. Just happened to run my finger down the edge and felt something grab. No damage to the K390 Endela or its serrations through a few cans, though I have managed to bend and break off some of its tips recently. Not sure what I did that on. The Endela with its thinner tip seemed to hold up better where LC200N rolled a bit. This has been my experience using it on my Pac Salt (rolling) which sees a lot of use over the summer vs my K390 Endela in Plain Edge that even my wife can't seem to destroy. Though K390 is NOT nearly as tough as LC200N, toughness alone doesn't necessarily transfer to the edge. In my use, K390 seems to hold that edge under abuse much better.

Does LC200N roll so much it turns me off? Absolutely not! It performs very well. I cannot get it to rust even when I wear it in the pool and in the ocean IWB. It sharpens ups nicer than anything else I have experienced. It is a fantastic steel, but I wouldn't say it is close to K390 on edge stablity. I have not tried Magnacut, but I guess it would depend on the heat treat and what Spyderco is trying to achieve with it. If they are shooting for higher corrosion resistance and not nescessarily higher edge retention that may change its performance and put it closer in line with LC200N. That is way above my pay grade and knowledge however. I'll go back to cutting up beer cans while someone else answers that.

LC200N after piercing one can. As to the bent tips of my K390 Endela a few weeks ago, I don't know. I still haven't made an opinion on K390 in serrations. Just so you know, my bias in steel is towards Cruwear. Very tough and holds up to abuse very well at the edge. Also sharpens like a dream.

My experience with LC200N is that it rolls fairly frequently at acute angles as well. I use a custom in CPM Magna-Cut (62-63HRC) and it holds a pretty acute edge for a while without chipping or rolling. If you like CPM Cru-Wear magna-cut behaves similarly in my experience being a little more difficult to sharpen. I’m excited for the new Native Chief LW in it.