Ok, could it be that LC200N fares better against Magnacut than some might think?

[Fastidiotus]

I personally don't see magnacut as a replacement or competition for H1/2 or Lc200n. H1/2 seems to be unable to corrode in a natural environment and is incredibly tough. Lc200n is still nearly corrosion proof but does have minor cathodic interaction with hardware and though not as tough as H1/2 whats gained in better edge retention is a very worthwhile trade off for the minimal real world reduction is toughness and corrosion resistance. They compliment each other well as Salt Series knives giving the choice of absolutely corrosion proof, or nearly corrosion proof with better edge retention.

For me Magnacut is a steel that more directly competes with M390/20cv/204p, S30v, S35/45vn, Spy27, and tool steels like CruWear, Rex45, M4 and 4v. Magnacut may not be magical but it is very well balanced to the point that you could have a valid argument for why bother with a different steel for general edc. I personally wouldn't care if S30v and S45vn got replaced with Spy27 and Magnacut on all the standard models. Variety is the spice of life though and different steel offerings is what makes Spyderco so different from everyone else so I'm glad they offer as many as they do.

[Bill1170]

What edge angle would you folks think of as the theoretical limit for LC200n? I entertain the idea to go as low as sensible with my UKPK Salt...

My SE Caribbean is at around 20 degrees inclusive, 15 on the scallops and 5 on the flat side. I don’t consider that the limit, but it holds up well in my uses. I also have a VG-10 Endela SE and a K390 Endura SE with this same edge geometry. They all do well.

[kerrcobra]

I don’t give one whit about corrosion resistance, but I can still appreciate what other great characteristics these steels possess. With that in mind, does one of them have the ability to be heat treated to a much higher Rc hardness? Does either one have an advantage in strength at high hardness?

I’m no metallurgist, but I would assume Magnacut considering it’s often stated as comparable to 4V with the added bonus of very high corrosion resistance. LC200N’s extreme toughness is certainly a benefit of the steel in the right use case, but how often is that need recognized in a folder considering that the edge strength, resistance to plastic deformation, apex stability are facets of strength more so than toughness (if I’m remembering correctly and accurately conveying it)?

Another poster above me mentioned comparing Magnacut against the m390 class of steels and the high performance tool steels as perhaps a more suitable comparison, and I tend to agree with him/her. That is usually how I think of it.

[Naperville]

My perspective in this subject is I will buy 1, LC 200N Native Chief for my collection. But I will probably buy 2 to 4, Magnacut Native Chiefs to use.

I use knives to cut things and Magnacut is supposed to be much better than most of the tough, corrosion resistant steels.

[SchoonerBum]

I’m also of the opinion that Magnacut, LC200N, and H2 are not competitors, nor could one replace the other. They all fill different niches within the salt series, and Magnacut represents an expansion of what we have available to us. It’s great to have more salt-worthy options!

[Doc Dan]

I think that what these three steels give us is choice. Does one need extreme corrosion resistance? Does one need toughness? Or, does one need edge retention? Where is the priority? One of these steels will fit a person's needs.

[Bolster]

The reason I don't think that MagnaCut vs. LC200N (or H1, H2) are apt competitors, is because of the importance many users place on edge retention. When I analyzed the last Spyderco users survey, I did some cluster analyses on the data, and discovered there is a "tribe" of users who value edge retention highly. Regardless of toughness or corrosion resistance scores, these folks will gravitate toward the high-edge-retention knives in any category.

CATRA scores for LC200N are in the upper 300s, fairly close to 420HC; whereas MagnaCut is in the middling 500s, a sizeable difference in edge retention, equivalent to Spy27 and XHP. With Magnacut, we now have a stainless steel that competes successfully with tool steels in the 4V/M4/CruWear neighborhood on the toughness/retention curve. Whereas LC200N (and H1, H2) live in a completely different neighborhood--a "tougher neighborhood," if you'll excuse the pun.

[Wartstein]

.....
CATRA scores for LC200N are in the upper 300s, fairly close to 420HC; whereas MagnaCut is in the middling 500s, a sizeable difference in edge retention, equivalent to Spy27 and XHP. With Magnacut, we now have a stainless steel that competes successfully with tool steels in the 4V/M4/CruWear neighborhood on the toughness/retention curve. Whereas LC200N (and H1, H2) live in a completely different neighborhood--a "tougher neighborhood," if you'll excuse the pun.

Tanks, Bolster, for also chiming in again here, really appreciate it! (And happy new year! Where I live it´s already morning of Jan 1st)

Now, yes, the title of "my" thread is pretty broad (kind of generally how LC compares to MC), but my actual main question remains to be:

- Could the even higher toughness of LC potentially be "used" to get it closer to MC in edge retention, just cause LC perhaps can take more acute edge angles due to that very high toughness (And a more acute edge, as long as it holds up, will normally enhance edge retention, right?)

I know you´ve pointed out in another thread already that there are more factors that contribute to (acute) "edge stability" than "just" "toughness" / tensile strength (like hardness... or a very acute edge in a very "tough" steel won´t chip, but potentially roll all the time instead)

Still ,just to demonstrate what my question is, some completely made up, fictional numbers:

- Let´s say in a certain task and at 40 incl. MC would have an edge retention of "5" and LC of "3"
- At 20 incl. MC would have an edge retention of "7" and LC of "5"- BUT MC, in that certain task, can´t take that very acute 15 incl. anymore, while LC can .... this would make up for the lack in "general edge retention" AND make LC a better cutter due to the very acute edge angle - ?!

[Brock O Lee]

LC may be tough, but at a typical hardness of 60 HRC it is a lot softer than MC at 63/64 HRC. As a result it has less strength and stability at the edge compared to MC. That is my understanding and expereince with LC200N from Spyderco, and Magnacut from Chris Reeve.

[SchoonerBum]

It sounds like some testing is in order!

[Doc Dan]

I would like to see a showdown between LC200N and 14C28N in all categories.

[Wartstein]

It sounds like some testing is in order!

Actually with the Native 5 Salt and the Chief Salt coming in both LC200N and Magnacut there are as ideal as possible conditions for comparison-testing... exact same blades in both MC and LC...

Would really be interesting how acute the edge angles could go in "light", "medium" and "hard" (on the edge) tasks... and how edge retention then really compares.

[Bolster]

It's a really good question, W. I've yet to read any commentary on how much edge retention (or are we talking edge stability?) that toughness can add. It would be nice to have some sort of formula, that X amount of additional toughness allows one to shave Y degrees from the edge and retain equivalent retention (or stability).

From reading BBB's posts, I suspect his perspective might be that strength/hardness is the greater part of edge retention (or possibly stability). Of course he can speak for himself on this issue, but I've noticed he tends to favor stronger, harder steels and seems less concerned about toughness for the range of tasks that pocketknives address. At least, that's been my interpretation.

(The problem with the term 'edge stability' of course is that it's undefined as a measurement--no metric for it yet, AFAIK. Until something can be measured, it's kind of just a philosophical concept. There even seem to be competing definitions of it.*)

I'm enjoying this thread, though. It really forces us to consider the variable of toughness, and what it actually means to users like ourselves. Clearly, toughness goes beyond just conversations of rolling vs. chipping, it also influences potential edge "acuteness" to an unknown degree.

I'm sure we're all aware of the conversations around AEB-L, another very tough steel, and how it can support remarkably acute angles and keen edges, though it is not terribly impressive in terms of edge retention.

(*Again, I'm at a loss to describe any steel's edge stability, a Landes concept, which I've seen defined a number of different ways, but sometimes involving a combination of high hardness and low carbide. If that's the definition, then H2 and LC200N would probably not be considered great examples of 'high edge stability' knives because they don't have the high hardness to begin with. However Spyderco's recent high-Rc AEB-L mule is another case altogether, since it has high hardness and low carbide.)

[R100]

Now, yes, the title of "my" thread is pretty broad (kind of generally how LC compares to MC), but my actual main question remains to be:

- Could the even higher toughness of LC potentially be "used" to get it closer to MC in edge retention, just cause LC perhaps can take more acute edge angles due to that very high toughness (And a more acute edge, as long as it holds up, will normally enhance edge retention, right?)

I know you´ve pointed out in another thread already that there are more factors that contribute to (acute) "edge stability" than "just" "toughness" / tensile strength (like hardness... or a very acute edge in a very "tough" steel won´t chip, but potentially roll all the time instead)

Actually, I think the opposite is the case: Magnacut is still quite a tough steel and the higher hardness means that it will support more acute edge angles than LC200N. I have found that LC200N is quite prone to rolling when I thin the edge down. Everyone's use is different of course but one activity that often defeats an acute LC200N edge is taking bark samples in my job as a botanist.

Here is an example. It involves using quite a bit of force through a tough medium and is an easy way to roll LC200N. S30V, the knife in the photo is an S30V PM2 Wharncliffe, is quite a bit more stable in this kind of use. Magnacut is both tougher and harder than S30V so should support a more acute edge bevel.

The only Spyderco Magnacut I have so far is a SE Native 5 Salt and I have found it takes less edge damage than LC200N SE. I intend to get a PE Native Chief LW in Magnacut when they become available and will be able to compare it with my much used Siren. There are often comparisons made between Magnacut and 4V. I have had great success with 4V at 10°-12° per side so I also have high hopes for Magnacut. Time will tell. Experts like Larrin Thomas and BBB often point out that hardness is more important to edge stability than toughness and I think and hope this will be borne out in the difference between LC200N and Magnacut.

I have been a bit disappointed with LC200N in edges under 15dps but it still has great strengths - corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening and ease of repairing edge damage.

Dan

[vivi]

been saying it a while now, but H1 is as super a steel as any other out there. It isn't just rust proof, it's also very tough and super quick to sharpen.

[Wartstein]

It's a really good question, W. I've yet to read any commentary on how much edge retention (or are we talking edge stability?) that toughness can add. ......

Actually, I think the opposite is the case: Magnacut is still quite a tough steel and the higher hardness means that it will support more acute edge angles than LC200N. .......

Thanks for your points, interesting insight and "real life data"!

- That "toughness" is really not the only factor that contributes to "edge stability" (perhaps does even not contribute a lot?) can be seen in that short vid by Shawn / BBB that has been shared quite a bit over the years, I myself did that lately and may do it again here:

https://youtu.be/WOpu13O_OFE?feature=shared

He compares the "edge stability" (literally "edge toughness") of REX 45 and M4 by cutting, twisting, torqueing in (to) brass rods:
Now M4 is considered to be "tougher" than REX 45, and in this test the M4 is even run a bit softer than REX 45:

Still REX 45 (less "tough" AND run harder!) did better both in (not) rolling and (not) chipping than M4!

[vivi]

I think sometimes people are discussing different things when strength, toughness and edge stability are brought up.

The way I personally define it:

edge stability - an edges ability to resist change

toughness - an edges ability to resist chipping and fracturing when its toughness limits are exceeded

H1 would rank very high in toughness and very low in edge stability. K390 would rank very high with edge stability but (theoretically) not so high with toughness.

[Wartstein]

I think sometimes people are discussing different things when strength, toughness and edge stability are brought up.

The way I personally define it:

edge stability - an edges ability to resist change

toughness - an edges ability to resist chipping and fracturing when its toughness limits are exceeded

H1 would rank very high in toughness and very low in edge stability. K390 would rank very high with edge stability but (theoretically) not so high with toughness.

How would you rate REX 45 then?

My REX 54 Manixes edge, just like the REX Para 3 in Shawns vid, can really take pretty extreme abuse without both chipping or rolling... its "toughness limit" though should be not too high, just by the general properties and specs of the steel.

Obviously Spydercos REX 45 is run pretty hard - but does this high hardness really contribute to "toughness" (which would be the opposite of what many say...)? Or rather to general "egde stability"?

[vivi]

I think sometimes people are discussing different things when strength, toughness and edge stability are brought up.

The way I personally define it:

edge stability - an edges ability to resist change

toughness - an edges ability to resist chipping and fracturing when its toughness limits are exceeded

H1 would rank very high in toughness and very low in edge stability. K390 would rank very high with edge stability but (theoretically) not so high with toughness.

How would you rate REX 45 then?

My REX 54 Manixes edge, just like the REX Para 3 in Shawns vid, can really take pretty extreme abuse without both chipping or rolling... its "toughness limit" though should be not too high, just by the general properties and specs of the steel.

Obviously Spydercos REX 45 is run pretty hard - but does this high hardness really contribute to "toughness" (which would be the opposite of what many say...)? Or rather to general "egde stability"?

I don't recall taking rex45 past that point before I gifted my rex45 chief.

that's one issue with talking about these things, edge angles, etc. most people haven't put their knives through such tough use that they experienced edge failure.

edit: I see the distinction come up in my work knives a lot actually (chef).

Something like a Kiwi knife, Cold Steel Chef Knife or Victorinox Chef Knife has garbage edge stability but high toughness. They'll resist chipping very well, but dicing veggies on a plastic cutting board with degrage their edge fast.

Japanese style kitchen knives tend to be run thinner and much harder. High edge stability during typical use - mess less apex deformation when using them on hard cutting board. However, bang them into a steel prep table or a bone, and their low toughness becomes apparent. They're much more likely to chip and fracture rather than roll.

It's a trade off. Some situations toughness matters more, others edge stability matters more.

[kobold]

Edge stability is simply the resistance to rolling and chipping (as defined by Roman Landes).

I gather from what Larrin Thomas wrote about edge stability (here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/ ... stability/) that it is achieved by finding a balance between rolling and chipping for any given steel using the right (perfect) edge geometry.

BTW, I remember Shawn Houston calling Rex45 a hotrod steel in one of his videos. That can have a very acute edge and maintain edge stability (so resist rolling and chipping).