Spyderco Forums

I think that Cl1ff, Hans, etc. see it.

Our market has expanded quite a bit in the past 10 years. Many of our older customers that have discussed many of the finer points of steels, angles, geometry, etc. seem to have greater understanding of the peeling back of the onion in these areas. I think it will just be a matter of time before some of the new ELU's (End Line Users) have been here long enough and have discussed these points enough to appreciate the more extreme materials and edge concepts. We kinda overestimated the immediate acceptance of some of these more extreme concepts and materials.

sal

It's unfortunate that I have to fall back on saying things like 'it's better steel' to some people (and not just about k390). It's like talking about math, some peoples eyes just glaze over when you try to talk about the finer points of steel.

They don't have the attention span for it.

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

I would like to try k390. But since its only made in frn models I really do not want to spend my money on it. If they would (depending on the model) put it in a more expensive g10 version i would find it so attractive compared to now. I feel I really am struggling with spyderco’s tactic’s as of late.
The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel really kills my appetite for more spydies.
Before someone gets upset I know frn isn’t cheap but the feeling in my hand will always scream plastic to me and will never give me a high quality feeling.
And that is why i want spydies namely for that high quality feeling they give me…

Bento Box has G10 PM2s and Para 3s.

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

I would like to try k390. But since its only made in frn models I really do not want to spend my money on it. If they would (depending on the model) put it in a more expensive g10 version i would find it so attractive compared to now. I feel I really am struggling with spyderco’s tactic’s as of late.
The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel really kills my appetite for more spydies.
Before someone gets upset I know frn isn’t cheap but the feeling in my hand will always scream plastic to me and will never give me a high quality feeling.
And that is why i want spydies namely for that high quality feeling they give me…

You can always swap out the scales. Here’s some “denim micarta” I found on Etsy from a maker in Ukraine. Gives it that real nice solid feel you’re looking for. The all in price is nice too; I’m still under the going rate on a Seki-City G10 knife.

I think a part of the issue with the with spyderco's wharncliffe knives is that they're ugly looking. I really like the utility of the wharncliffe blade, personally, but the really wide curved blade that sticks out of the handle when closed just doesn't look right to me. I think a reverse tanto style blade, like on the yojimbo, would have been accepted better by the market.

As for K390, I hope it'll stay around. When I've recommended knives to friends who have the money for a higher end knife, they usually seem interested in K390 when I tell them that the edge basically lasts forever if you don't abuse it.
The fact that K390 is non-stainless and none of the knives are coated does seem to make people wary though. DLC or TiCN coated K390 would help with this. I'd buy another dragonfly wharncliffe and ladybug if coated versions came out.

Hopsbreath wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:55 pm

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

I would like to try k390. But since its only made in frn models I really do not want to spend my money on it. If they would (depending on the model) put it in a more expensive g10 version i would find it so attractive compared to now. I feel I really am struggling with spyderco’s tactic’s as of late.
The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel really kills my appetite for more spydies.
Before someone gets upset I know frn isn’t cheap but the feeling in my hand will always scream plastic to me and will never give me a high quality feeling.
And that is why i want spydies namely for that high quality feeling they give me…

You can always swap out the scales. Here’s some “denim micarta” I found on Etsy from a maker in Ukraine. Gives it that real nice solid feel you’re looking for. The all in price is nice too; I’m still under the going rate on a Seki-City G10 knife.

Hey hey! Ukraine for the win. These Micarta scales are from Etsy as well from a maker in Ukraine. Have some coming from Suingab (g10.it) for and Endela too.

Traditional.Sharpening wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:47 am

To put it plainly, this class of steel only makes sense when you are not concerned with high cutting ability through acute geometry AND you intend to keep using the knife to VERY low levels of sharpness and/or simply cannot or will not sharpen the knife for long periods of time. From my perspective, I could easily make an argument that this type of steel would actually be the worst kind of steel for my application for the above reasons. Again, parameters are needed to actually be better.

But from Spyderco's perspective and for their design parameters, there are limits to how acute geometry can be, because customers are going to do stupid things with their knives. They have to be more robust than might be strictly optimal for cutting to protect against that, or else develop a reputation for being fragile and a lot of warranty claims.

And most people don't want to sharpen that much - either they don't want the down time when they need to keep using the tool, or they just don't like to do it. As long as the knife is slicing cardboard without bunching, they'll still call it sharp, so they probably are cutting to what you would consider very low levels of sharpness. Also, K390 may have equivalent vanadium to S90V but it is much easier to touch up with a microbevel on the sharpmaker than S90V, even if diamonds/CBN still greatly aid reprofiling.

From that point of view, K390 is an excellent steel for Spyderco to offer. For you that may be an obtuse geometry/low sharpness scenario, but I would bet it's closer to how Spyderco's average customer uses their knife.

We kinda overestimated the immediate acceptance of some of these more extreme concepts and materials.

Yeah... it makes sense that you need to cater to the biggest group of buyers. The fanatical eccentrics on the knife forums might be interested in "extreme" concepts and materials, but we might not be the biggest group buying knives. Darn.

Using the term "extreme" materials might scare people away, and it's not as accurate as labeling them "high performance" materials. I've even seen it here on the forum, where people who have never used K390 label it as "extreme" and not worth the trouble. They see the 15% vanadium and assume it's a nightmare to sharpen. On the contrary, I find it to be easy to sharpen.

Consider a chunk of S30V: I do one side and get a burr, so I go to the other side until the burr is as small as possible. Then I increase the grit and do it again. The burr is smaller. Then I go to a finer grit, and go very, very gently until the burr is gone and the knife is sharp. It's a bit of work.

Now consider K390: The first side might have little or no burr. I go to the other side, and by then the burr is imperceptable. I might go finer, and it's the same story: non-existent burrs. K390 is so easy that getting rid of burrs is not even a consideration--it just keeps getting sharper and sharper.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it: "High Performance" steels not only perform better in cutting, but they are easier to sharpen.

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel...

Like you I don't typically carry an FRN knife. They live in my garage, in the car, and all over the place. I too prefer the "nicer" models for everyday carry, but I applaud Spyderco for offering high-performance AFI steels in the more affordable FRN models.

These are no-nonsense work knives. The FRN is light and durable and practical, and the lower cost means more people can experience the steel. These knives are the true mules in my opinion, because people are not afraid to put them through the ringer. The really expensive models are often light users at best, at least in my collection and my experience.

In terms of sharpening, I dig how K390 sharpens. I found it quick to reprofile my Delica, Endela and Endura, similar effort than S30V if I had to guess. Burr removal was stupid easy, yielding impressive sticky-sharp edges without trying hard.

While it is true that the high carbide steels like K390 excel at staying moderately sharp/dull for a long time, and at more obtuse angles than the scalpels, they also serve a purpose. I have a Endela wharncliffe that I put a new coarse edge on 2.5 months ago. I use it almost daily to process the household recycling (breaking down boxes, cut plastic, etc). It is still sharp enough to glide through cardboard without hangups after 10 weeks, without stropping or any other edge maintenance. That makes me happy.

Yes it won't shave arm hair anymore, but it still cleanly slices paper, and to a lesser degree phonebook paper. Some people might perceive that as dull, and that is fair enough. For me it is still sharp enough to do the job I ask of it well.

Brock O Lee wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:34 am

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel...

Like you I don't typically carry an FRN knife. They live in my garage, in the car, and all over the place. I too prefer the "nicer" models for everyday carry, but I applaud Spyderco for offering high-performance AFI steels in the more affordable FRN models.

These are no-nonsense work knives. The FRN is light and durable and practical, and the lower cost means more people can experience the steel. These knives are the true mules in my opinion, because people are not afraid to put them through the ringer. The really expensive models are often light users at best, at least in my collection and my experience.

In terms of sharpening, I dig how K390 sharpens. I found it quick to reprofile my Delica, Endela and Endura, similar effort than S30V if I had to guess. Burr removal was stupid easy, and was very impressive.

While it is true that the high carbide steels like K390 excel at staying moderately sharp/dull for a long time, and at more obtuse angles than the scalpels, they also serve a purpose. I have a Endela wharncliffe that I put a new coarse edge on 2.5 months ago. I use it almost daily to process the household recycling (breaking down boxes, cut plastic, etc). It is still sharp enough to glide through cardboard without hangups after 10 weeks, without stropping or any other edge maintenance. That makes me happy.

Yes it won't shave air hair anymore, but it still cleanly slices paper, and to a lesser degree phonebook paper. Some people might perceive that as dull, and that is fair enough. For me it is still sharp enough to do the job I ask of it well.

I agree that spyderco is doing good for some people. But zero offerings in g10 variants are a strategy I really do not get. For example the stretch in cruwear. Why not make a second variant with a k390 blade and some blue g10? I would buy that one directly since i like blue and want the steel. The grey one i do not buy because i dislike the color and putting scales on a knife that expensive here in Europe puts me almost in a territory of far more fit and finished knives like the drunken for example and that is to much for just a stretch.

And to comment on the guys using etsy for scales. I never did that since i hear very bad things about that place frequently and loosing my funds to scammers isn’t worth the risk for me so i rather pay a bigger amount for the safety of a good reputation. But i agree they look nice.

Hopsbreath wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:55 pm

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

I would like to try k390. But since its only made in frn models I really do not want to spend my money on it. If they would (depending on the model) put it in a more expensive g10 version i would find it so attractive compared to now. I feel I really am struggling with spyderco’s tactic’s as of late.
The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel really kills my appetite for more spydies.
Before someone gets upset I know frn isn’t cheap but the feeling in my hand will always scream plastic to me and will never give me a high quality feeling.
And that is why i want spydies namely for that high quality feeling they give me…

You can always swap out the scales. Here’s some “denim micarta” I found on Etsy from a maker in Ukraine. Gives it that real nice solid feel you’re looking for. The all in price is nice too; I’m still under the going rate on a Seki-City G10 knife.

Bought a set from him for like 55€ EU taxes included (he handles that himself, customs won't ask them again)



totally change the feeling of the knife. My only regret is not buying a backspacer to go with it. I was in a hurry and checked out so fast I did not see I could add a backspacer for really not much money

Bring on the 15V and K390! Haven't had either in the Native Chief yet....and I'm back to work now!!!!

Hi J15w,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

I am going to get the k390 Leaf Jumper eventually. I am sure I would love it in SE - but after investing hours to get the edge angle down on H1 and investing about as much trying to do the same on a Cruwear - and still being far away from any result - I am not going to attempt the same on a k390 unless I get my hands on tools that can do so more efficiently. I am thinking along the lines of thin diamond grinding wheel (plate) or something like that.

I can sharpen k390 PM2 free hand on diamond water stones in few minutes. I can not do the same with a serrated blade in comparable steel.

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:52 am

Hopsbreath wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 5:55 pm

apollo wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:31 pm

I would like to try k390. But since its only made in frn models I really do not want to spend my money on it. If they would (depending on the model) put it in a more expensive g10 version i would find it so attractive compared to now. I feel I really am struggling with spyderco’s tactic’s as of late.
The combo of cheap feeling frn with high performance steel really kills my appetite for more spydies.
Before someone gets upset I know frn isn’t cheap but the feeling in my hand will always scream plastic to me and will never give me a high quality feeling.
And that is why i want spydies namely for that high quality feeling they give me…

You can always swap out the scales. Here’s some “denim micarta” I found on Etsy from a maker in Ukraine. Gives it that real nice solid feel you’re looking for. The all in price is nice too; I’m still under the going rate on a Seki-City G10 knife.

Bought a set from him for like 55€ EU taxes included (he handles that himself, customs won't ask them again)



totally change the feeling of the knife. My only regret is not buying a backspacer to go with it. I was in a hurry and checked out so fast I did not see I could add a backspacer for really not much money

I considered getting another SE Police just so I could put micarta on it, but ended up with a SE Endura instead. These discontinued k390 knives at clearance prices paired with his micarta are among the best bang for the buck you can get out of Spyderco right now.

Hopsbreath wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:48 pm

I considered getting another SE Police just so I could put micarta on it, but ended up with a SE Endura instead. These discontinued k390 knives at clearance prices paired with his micarta are among the best bang for the buck you can get out of Spyderco right now.

If clearance prices were a thing in Europe I'd have every wharncliffe K390 blades already ! I only have the Dragonfly for now and then K390 "regular" blades ^^

ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:14 pm

It's unfortunate that I have to fall back on saying things like 'it's better steel' to some people (and not just about k390). It's like talking about math, some peoples eyes just glaze over when you try to talk about the finer points of steel.

They don't have the attention span for it.

FWIW, there is no such thing as better steel across the board. If that were true there would only be one type of steel produced. This is like saying 'Nike is better shoe'. Every steel has pros and cons. You really cannot say what the best steel is without carefully defining what the end user will do with the knife and what they are looking for performance-wise.

If I bought K390 blade and reprofiled it down to 5 DPS and compared it to AEB-L at 63 RC using the same edge geometry, I would likely not be running around telling all my friends it is better steel. If you like overbuilt factory edges that use the similar edge angles that are used on felling axes (on the order of 17 DPS) and like to use dull knives then it may be better.

Ramonade wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 16, 2023 2:37 pm

Hopsbreath wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:48 pm

I considered getting another SE Police just so I could put micarta on it, but ended up with a SE Endura instead. These discontinued k390 knives at clearance prices paired with his micarta are among the best bang for the buck you can get out of Spyderco right now.

If clearance prices were a thing in Europe I'd have every wharncliffe K390 blades already ! I only have the Dragonfly for now and then K390 "regular" blades ^^

If clearance prices where a thing in Europe we both would be living in a cardboard box full of spydies under a bridge probably…

apollo wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:32 am

If clearance prices where a thing in Europe we both would be living in a cardboard box full of spydies under a bridge probably…

No you wouldn't.

You would use the carboard box for cutting tests