Anyone want to see Vanax in the salt series?

[cabfrank]

As far as real world, everything I've read and experienced, nothing is more resistant to corrosion than H1, and if it is, it would be purely academic.

[alphaneuron9]

Yeah, I thought and experienced that until I tried vanax (the most recent iteration) and vastly superior edge retention.

[alphaneuron9]

Tell me, cabfrank, which H1's do you have? I have 2 salt dragonflies and 2 Aqua Salt. Awesome knives. But always stropping.

[cabfrank]

Ladybug Hawkbill, two Salt 1's, Tasman Salt 1, ARK, Jumpmaster 2, Pac Salt 2...I think that is the current lineup. They're so good that I want more.

[alphaneuron9]

Ladybug Hawkbill, two Salt 1's, Tasman Salt 1, ARK, Jumpmaster 2, Pac Salt 2...I think that is the current lineup. They're so good that I want more.

**** yeah! are you bummed out H1 has been discontinued?
I really want to put a vanax in your hands. I loved my H1s so much that I started researching other super resistant steels. Look into ¨quiet carry´´

[cabfrank]

I love H1, but I won't be too bummed if H2 is similar, which is the assumption. If not, yes, I will. There hasn't been much comparison yet, at least not that I've read. If you want to put a vanax in my hands, I'm game (ha ha!), but all of my purchases are Spyderco only, for quite a while now.

[JoviAl]

I have a Magnacut mule and a quiet carry drift in Vanax, both of which get used (the mule a lot at work). Having used them both for about a year now I’m inclined firmly towards Magnacut - it’s a joy to sharpen, plenty tough (I’ve batoned with my mule no problem) and it hasn’t got a speck of corrosion on it after a year of abuse outdoors in the tropics. Vanax is a bit more of a chore to sharpen (I dual grit my Magnacut, but Vanax doesn’t respond as well to that) and seems to dull faster in wood (what I cut mostly), but it is still a beautiful blade material and laughs in the face of corrosion.

If Spyderco make a Vanax knife I I’ll buy it, but I don’t think it outperforms Magnacut in the field (at least in the permutations I have it in). Magnacut is pretty splendid.

[Xplorer]

In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

This evening's dinner was prepared using a Chad Kelly Vanax knife. The knife is the most beautiful knife I've handled, and it is the best performing kitchen knife that I've ever used. Is the knife awesome because the blade is Vanax? Is the knife awesome because of Chad's artistry? This is a question best left to wiser men than me. But I can tell you, this knife is so good that I'm eager to buy something else in Vanax.

Hey Rusty! I'm very happy to hear you are enjoying your knife!

I have a Magnacut mule and a quiet carry drift in Vanax, both of which get used (the mule a lot at work). Having used them both for about a year now I’m inclined firmly towards Magnacut - it’s a joy to sharpen, plenty tough (I’ve batoned with my mule no problem) and it hasn’t got a speck of corrosion on it after a year of abuse outdoors in the tropics. Vanax is a bit more of a chore to sharpen (I dual grit my Magnacut, but Vanax doesn’t respond as well to that) and seems to dull faster in wood (what I cut mostly), but it is still a beautiful blade material and laughs in the face of corrosion.

If Spyderco make a Vanax knife I I’ll buy it, but I don’t think it outperforms Magnacut in the field (at least in the permutations I have it in). Magnacut is pretty splendid.

Hi JoviAl,

Generally speaking, I agree with your assessment. I too enjoy Magnacut very much. From a practical, daily-use perspective the difference between MC and Vanax is more about sharpening response than anything else. When both are heat treated to be their best, MagnaCut has a carbide/matrix structure that is simply better for sharpening than Vanax. Can I say I've experienced any noticable differences in corrosion resistance, toughness or wear resistance between the 2 steels?...No. But, I can say that when I sharpen MagnaCut it feels more like a tool steel and leaves a clean, sharp apex more quickly and easily.

I have spent many years working on Vanax heat treating and have spent a solid amount of time working on heat treating MC as well. I think I can add a little more depth of understand to the differences you are experiencing between a MC Mule and the Vanax Quiet Carry Drift.

Vanax is a steel that will develop retained austenite very easily. If R/A is allowed to develop, this steel will exhibit the most stubborn "gummy" burrs I've experienced with any knife steel. There are 3 major factors within the H/T process that will contribute to the formation of R/A.
1. The speed of the quench. If Vanax is not fully quenched (to room temp) within 60 seconds of removal from heat the R/A increases and the hardness decreases. Plate quenching is necessary to achieve the fast quench times Vanax needs to perform at it's best. Production facilities use a vacuum quenching process that does not achieve the quench speed needed to get the best results.
2. Transition time. Vanax must be cryo treated prior to tempering (and IMMEDIATELY after quenching) if the best results are going to be achieved. The time between quench and cryo is a critical and very under-appreciated time for R/A formation. Most production facilities cannot move blades from quenching to cryo nearly fast enough to treat Vanax ideally.
3. Cryo. Some production facilities may choose to skip cryo altogether. I'm not suggesting Quiet Carry did this. I'm just mentioning that cryo is another factor that, if skipped, would result in a Vanax blade that doesn't sharpen well.

If you are finding Vanax is dulling when cutting wood (more quickly than MC), I can all-but guarantee you are having burr issues. My hunch is the burr you develop on that blade is smaller and more difficult to remove than you may have imagined. Vanax will leave a micro-burr that can make you think the edge is clean but then you cut something and it shows up as "dulling". My friend Shawn over at BBB can tell you all about the evil of micro burrs. In fact, he's a genuine expert and if you have questions I suggest you hit him up.

When you sharpen your Drift next time, be extra vigilant about burr removal. Stropping is great if you are comfortable with a strop and have some diamond paste to treat it. Sometimes a few "micro-bevel" swipes is a good way to get rid of the burr.

Best regards,
Chad

[JoviAl]

In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

This evening's dinner was prepared using a Chad Kelly Vanax knife. The knife is the most beautiful knife I've handled, and it is the best performing kitchen knife that I've ever used. Is the knife awesome because the blade is Vanax? Is the knife awesome because of Chad's artistry? This is a question best left to wiser men than me. But I can tell you, this knife is so good that I'm eager to buy something else in Vanax.

Hey Rusty! I'm very happy to hear you are enjoying your knife!

I have a Magnacut mule and a quiet carry drift in Vanax, both of which get used (the mule a lot at work). Having used them both for about a year now I’m inclined firmly towards Magnacut - it’s a joy to sharpen, plenty tough (I’ve batoned with my mule no problem) and it hasn’t got a speck of corrosion on it after a year of abuse outdoors in the tropics. Vanax is a bit more of a chore to sharpen (I dual grit my Magnacut, but Vanax doesn’t respond as well to that) and seems to dull faster in wood (what I cut mostly), but it is still a beautiful blade material and laughs in the face of corrosion.

If Spyderco make a Vanax knife I I’ll buy it, but I don’t think it outperforms Magnacut in the field (at least in the permutations I have it in). Magnacut is pretty splendid.

Hi JoviAl,

Generally speaking, I agree with your assessment. I too enjoy Magnacut very much. From a practical, daily-use perspective the difference between MC and Vanax is more about sharpening response than anything else. When both are heat treated to be their best, MagnaCut has a carbide/matrix structure that is simply better for sharpening than Vanax. Can I say I've experienced any noticable differences in corrosion resistance, toughness or wear resistance between the 2 steels?...No. But, I can say that when I sharpen MagnaCut it feels more like a tool steel and leaves a clean, sharp apex more quickly and easily.

I have spent many years working on Vanax heat treating and have spent a solid amount of time working on heat treating MC as well. I think I can add a little more depth of understand to the differences you are experiencing between a MC Mule and the Vanax Quiet Carry Drift.

Vanax is a steel that will develop retained austenite very easily. If R/A is allowed to develop, this steel will exhibit the most stubborn "gummy" burrs I've experienced with any knife steel. There are 3 major factors within the H/T process that will contribute to the formation of R/A.
1. The speed of the quench. If Vanax is not fully quenched (to room temp) within 60 seconds of removal from heat the R/A increases and the hardness decreases. Plate quenching is necessary to achieve the fast quench times Vanax needs to perform at it's best. Production facilities use a vacuum quenching process that does not achieve the quench speed needed to get the best results.
2. Transition time. Vanax must be cryo treated prior to tempering (and IMMEDIATELY after quenching) if the best results are going to be achieved. The time between quench and cryo is a critical and very under-appreciated time for R/A formation. Most production facilities cannot move blades from quenching to cryo nearly fast enough to treat Vanax ideally.
3. Cryo. Some production facilities may choose to skip cryo altogether. I'm not suggesting Quiet Carry did this. I'm just mentioning that cryo is another factor that, if skipped, would result in a Vanax blade that doesn't sharpen well.

If you are finding Vanax is dulling when cutting wood (more quickly than MC), I can all-but guarantee you are having burr issues. My hunch is the burr you develop on that blade is smaller and more difficult to remove than you may have imagined. Vanax will leave a micro-burr that can make you think the edge is clean but then you cut something and it shows up as "dulling". My friend Shawn over at BBB can tell you all about the evil of micro burrs. In fact, he's a genuine expert and if you have questions I suggest you hit him up.

When you sharpen your Drift next time, be extra vigilant about burr removal. Stopping is great if you are comfortable with a strop and have some diamond paste to treat it. Sometimes a few "micro-bevel" swipes is a good way to get rid of the burr.

Best regards,
Chad

Thanks Chad, that was an interesting and insightful reply

I had noticed the Drift could be a bit of a swine to deburr, particularly using strops on a KME at the original apex angle. I’ve been deburring it freehand on a kangaroo leather paddle strop with some 0.25 diamond paste and that seems to do the job (likely due to me inadvertently giving it a micro bevel from my less-than-machine-like strokes).

Interesting what you mentioned about R/A and production facilities not getting it quenched swiftly enough. The Vanax on my Drift isn’t noticeably especially challenging to sharpen (somewhere between S30V and 15V - a middle of the road experience to get sharp), but I have no other points of reference with ideally treated Vanax for comparison. For me, Spyderco’s Magnacut is up there with their CPM Cruwear at the ‘piece of cake’ end of the ‘Piece of cake - Piece of ’ sharpening continuum.

I’m not saying Magnacut is the ultimate steel, but for intensive outdoor use in the tropics I’ve not found anything better yet. I would love to see someone make a Magnacut machete - that would save me hours a month in maintenance alone.

[alphaneuron9]

In the meantime, if you happen to stumble upon a custom knife made by Chad Kelly in Vanax steel, Don't hesitate to buy it. Phenomenal.

This evening's dinner was prepared using a Chad Kelly Vanax knife. The knife is the most beautiful knife I've handled, and it is the best performing kitchen knife that I've ever used. Is the knife awesome because the blade is Vanax? Is the knife awesome because of Chad's artistry? This is a question best left to wiser men than me. But I can tell you, this knife is so good that I'm eager to buy something else in Vanax.

Hey Rusty! I'm very happy to hear you are enjoying your knife!

I have a Magnacut mule and a quiet carry drift in Vanax, both of which get used (the mule a lot at work). Having used them both for about a year now I’m inclined firmly towards Magnacut - it’s a joy to sharpen, plenty tough (I’ve batoned with my mule no problem) and it hasn’t got a speck of corrosion on it after a year of abuse outdoors in the tropics. Vanax is a bit more of a chore to sharpen (I dual grit my Magnacut, but Vanax doesn’t respond as well to that) and seems to dull faster in wood (what I cut mostly), but it is still a beautiful blade material and laughs in the face of corrosion.

If Spyderco make a Vanax knife I I’ll buy it, but I don’t think it outperforms Magnacut in the field (at least in the permutations I have it in). Magnacut is pretty splendid.

Hi JoviAl,

Generally speaking, I agree with your assessment. I too enjoy Magnacut very much. From a practical, daily-use perspective the difference between MC and Vanax is more about sharpening response than anything else. When both are heat treated to be their best, MagnaCut has a carbide/matrix structure that is simply better for sharpening than Vanax. Can I say I've experienced any noticable differences in corrosion resistance, toughness or wear resistance between the 2 steels?...No. But, I can say that when I sharpen MagnaCut it feels more like a tool steel and leaves a clean, sharp apex more quickly and easily.

I have spent many years working on Vanax heat treating and have spent a solid amount of time working on heat treating MC as well. I think I can add a little more depth of understand to the differences you are experiencing between a MC Mule and the Vanax Quiet Carry Drift.

Vanax is a steel that will develop retained austenite very easily. If R/A is allowed to develop, this steel will exhibit the most stubborn "gummy" burrs I've experienced with any knife steel. There are 3 major factors within the H/T process that will contribute to the formation of R/A.
1. The speed of the quench. If Vanax is not fully quenched (to room temp) within 60 seconds of removal from heat the R/A increases and the hardness decreases. Plate quenching is necessary to achieve the fast quench times Vanax needs to perform at it's best. Production facilities use a vacuum quenching process that does not achieve the quench speed needed to get the best results.
2. Transition time. Vanax must be cryo treated prior to tempering (and IMMEDIATELY after quenching) if the best results are going to be achieved. The time between quench and cryo is a critical and very under-appreciated time for R/A formation. Most production facilities cannot move blades from quenching to cryo nearly fast enough to treat Vanax ideally.
3. Cryo. Some production facilities may choose to skip cryo altogether. I'm not suggesting Quiet Carry did this. I'm just mentioning that cryo is another factor that, if skipped, would result in a Vanax blade that doesn't sharpen well.

If you are finding Vanax is dulling when cutting wood (more quickly than MC), I can all-but guarantee you are having burr issues. My hunch is the burr you develop on that blade is smaller and more difficult to remove than you may have imagined. Vanax will leave a micro-burr that can make you think the edge is clean but then you cut something and it shows up as "dulling". My friend Shawn over at BBB can tell you all about the evil of micro burrs. In fact, he's a genuine expert and if you have questions I suggest you hit him up.

When you sharpen your Drift next time, be extra vigilant about burr removal. Stopping is great if you are comfortable with a strop and have some diamond paste to treat it. Sometimes a few "micro-bevel" swipes is a good way to get rid of the burr.

Best regards,
Chad

Hi Chad,
I am so glad I started this thread. This response is gold. Thank you. I, like JoviAl, have a couple MC fixed blades and a QC drift. I tend to use the MC's for harder use and the drift as my EDC. Living on an island I have noticed that MC will rust where vanax will not (a tiny spot on each MC, mind you- nothing major). I have also noticed the differences in sharpening and am grateful for your elucidation on the matter. Shawn referred me to you and I am thrilled to be chatting with the both of you in this thread. I think Im pretty well versed in the different steels and their chemistry but a novice enthusiast when it comes to knife making and sharpening. Did you use a "macroscope" to evaluate burrs until your sense of touch caught up or straight up sense of touch from the git go? Im still not getting the required feedback from my sense of touch but rather deducing there is still a burr when the blade "snags" on paper... And then I strop away until it resolves.
Alex

You know what, Im going to buy that macroscope and take pics anyways. Always cool to review my progress at sharpening and stropping to see how I improve. Maybe I'll post a few here (when I figure out how to post pics - yeah Im relatively new)

[Xplorer]

Hi Chad,

...Did you use a "macroscope" to evaluate burrs until your sense of touch caught up or straight up sense of touch from the git go?

I use a magnifying glass while I'm sharpening, a loop when I think the edge is done, and a digital microscope when I need to see a bit more. I feel the way the edge bites my fingernail and my hair. Then, when I think it's sharp I cut cardboard followed by paper to see if there is any sign of micro-burr rolling.

[Xplorer]

...I had noticed the Drift could be a bit of a swine to deburr, particularly using strops on a KME at the original apex angle. I’ve been deburring it freehand on a kangaroo leather paddle strop with some 0.25 diamond paste and that seems to do the job (likely due to me inadvertently giving it a micro bevel from my less-than-machine-like strokes).

Personally, I would suggest sticking with hand stropping. Not only is it best to develop the feel for it, but also you do want a little (very little) convex action to happen while you strop...just enough to effectively force any burr to flex over the apex a tiny bit. As you flex it back and forth, from one side to the other it will break the burr off. Hand stropping (all hand sharpening for that matter) is always going to have a convex result. If you maintain the bevel angle mechanically you will still get some convexing due to the softness of the leather you strop with, but you'll get the job done more quickly by hand.

Stropping aside, if you're using something like a KME you might want to try setting a micro-bevel at the end of your normal sharpening process. Particularly if you are using diamond stones (which I HIGHLY recommend for anyone sharpening Vanax), a micro-bevel of 4-6 swipes per side may very well remove your burrs prior to stropping.

...For me, Spyderco’s Magnacut is up there with their CPM Cruwear at the ‘piece of cake’ end of the sharpening continuum.

I think that ^ is a very important point.

I’m not saying Magnacut is the ultimate steel...

It would be sort of absurd to crown one steel the best of them all when there are so many different knife steel applications. But, I get what you're saying. MagnaCut has the most "well rounded" set of characteristics of any knife steel. Basically any type of knife can be made from MC and perform exceptionally well. Certainly, all forms of "sportsman's" knives can be made from MC and be considered high quality, high performance knives. Of course, it's when circumstances make corrosion resistance a higher than average priority that MC really "shines" .

[JoviAl]

.

Stropping aside, if you're using something like a KME you might want to try setting a micro-bevel at the end of your normal sharpening process. Particularly if you are using diamond stones (which I HIGHLY recommend for anyone sharpening Vanax), a micro-bevel of 4-6 swipes per side may very well remove your burrs prior to stropping.

Top advice - I’ll give that a go next time it needs a sharpen I use Diamond plates for all my KME sharpening - time is always scarce and I have to sharpen several knives a week, so any little efficiencies are welcome. That’s why I ended up dual grit sharpening quite a lot of stuff - it’s quick and gives an aggressive edge that lasts a whole day (sometimes two). Vanax doesn’t seem to love a dual grit edge quite like Magnacut, Cru wear, k390, etc

[alphaneuron9]

Man, this thread has gotten good. Thanks to everyone participating. Great advice on how to sharpen Vanax!

JoviAl, I happen to do dual grit sharpening as well on my MC. 200/3000 is what I use, just cause that´s what I had available at the moment. I found it does increase edge retention. Curious, what do you do? It´s toothy and stays paper cutting sharp much longer. (not exactly scientific)

[RustyIron]

Hey Rusty! I'm very happy to hear you are enjoying your knife!

Words can't really do justice to the coolness of this knife. The typical things I use it on are tomatoes and onions, two very different materials. But the blade handles both equally well. Two of the more of the more challenging materials are artichoke stems and watermelons at the skin. Both require minimum pressure, and the blade wants to cut straight.

The first time I sharpened the knife, I was taken aback. The burr was much bigger than expected, something like I would expect on lesser steel. It wasn't what I expected. But I carried on, and when I was ready, the burr sharpened away almost effortlessly. I can't remember at what grit I finish, probably 650, but maybe 1100. Regardless, the edge is beautifully sharp and stropping is not needed. Also, in the time I've had the knife I've sharpened it twice. I use it a lot, but only on sensible things. That's some pretty good performance.

[JoviAl]

Man, this thread has gotten good. Thanks to everyone participating. Great advice on how to sharpen Vanax!

JoviAl, I happen to do dual grit sharpening as well on my MC. 200/3000 is what I use, just cause that´s what I had available at the moment. I found it does increase edge retention. Curious, what do you do? It´s toothy and stays paper cutting sharp much longer. (not exactly scientific)

Ignore my previous question on the other post

I dual grit mine at 320/1500 usually, then finish on a mother’s mag or 0.25 diamond strop. That gets me about 1000-1500 pruning cuts on tropical plants (banana, papaya, torch ginger, Moringa, cacao, mulberry and a lot of soursop wood mainly) before I switch to another knife. For reference with a mirror edge and hair splitting sharpness I get about 600-800 cuts from the same knife with the same edge angles. Gabe from TheHomeSlice is on here sometimes and does great experiments with dual grit edges and their optimisation. Worth chatting to him if you can or checking him out on YouTube if you haven’t already

[Xplorer]

Words can't really do justice to the coolness of this knife. The typical things I use it on are tomatoes and onions, two very different materials. But the blade handles both equally well. Two of the more of the more challenging materials are artichoke stems and watermelons at the skin. Both require minimum pressure, and the blade wants to cut straight.

The first time I sharpened the knife, I was taken aback. The burr was much bigger than expected, something like I would expect on lesser steel. It wasn't what I expected. But I carried on, and when I was ready, the burr sharpened away almost effortlessly. I can't remember at what grit I finish, probably 650, but maybe 1100. Regardless, the edge is beautifully sharp and stropping is not needed. Also, in the time I've had the knife I've sharpened it twice. I use it a lot, but only on sensible things. That's some pretty good performance.

I'm genuinely happy to hear your knife is serving you well!

Now that you've had it a while I've been curious if you are enjoying it. Thank you for the update.

When I made your knife I cut the blank out of a larger piece of Vanax. There wasn't enough left to make another Gyuoto like the one I made for you, but there was just enough for a Petty. I'm finally getting around to building that one and I plan to keep it. Now I'll finally have a knife in my kitchen that is almost as nice as yours.

So, since we're talking Vanax, here's a pic of a new piece of Vanax that will be put to work in my kitchen some time next week.


This one has a short hollow grind with a thin shoulder BTE of .006", on a thin .062" spine. It's dangerously thin and would not be considered reliable if I sold it. It's an ultra-laser that I am likely to find myself repairing at times, but that's no big deal for me so I'm going to enjoy using it. It too will have a desert Ironwood handle. My wife has been bugging me to make a knife for our kitchen with an ironwood handle ever since I shipped your knife to you.

Best regards,
CK

[RustyIron]

My wife has been bugging me to make a knife for our kitchen with an ironwood handle ever since I shipped your knife to you.

Uh, oh. I hope I'm not in hot water with your missus. Please thank her for being patient and allowing me the knife she wanted.

Your new model is looking good. I see similarities with mine. Please post some pics when she's complete.

Rob

[Xplorer]

Uh, oh. I hope I'm not in hot water with your missus. Please thank her for being patient and allowing me the knife she wanted.

Your new model is looking good. I see similarities with mine. Please post some pics when she's complete.

Rob

No hot water..she's just jealous. It's a cobblers kids have no shoes sort of thing.

The model I'm working on right now shares significant similarities with your knife. The edge profiles are very similar, which means they will have a very similar feel while cutting on a cutting board (horizontal surface). Handle will be the same modified octagon shape. This one is smaller in height and length, plus the tip is clipped.

Here's a pic of it laying next to a tracing of your knife.

[alphaneuron9]

Words can't really do justice to the coolness of this knife. The typical things I use it on are tomatoes and onions, two very different materials. But the blade handles both equally well. Two of the more of the more challenging materials are artichoke stems and watermelons at the skin. Both require minimum pressure, and the blade wants to cut straight.

The first time I sharpened the knife, I was taken aback. The burr was much bigger than expected, something like I would expect on lesser steel. It wasn't what I expected. But I carried on, and when I was ready, the burr sharpened away almost effortlessly. I can't remember at what grit I finish, probably 650, but maybe 1100. Regardless, the edge is beautifully sharp and stropping is not needed. Also, in the time I've had the knife I've sharpened it twice. I use it a lot, but only on sensible things. That's some pretty good performance.

I'm genuinely happy to hear your knife is serving you well!

Now that you've had it a while I've been curious if you are enjoying it. Thank you for the update.

When I made your knife I cut the blank out of a larger piece of Vanax. There wasn't enough left to make another Gyuoto like the one I made for you, but there was just enough for a Petty. I'm finally getting around to building that one and I plan to keep it. Now I'll finally have a knife in my kitchen that is almost as nice as yours.

So, since we're talking Vanax, here's a pic of a new piece of Vanax that will be put to work in my kitchen some time next week.


This one has a short hollow grind with a thin shoulder BTE of .006", on a thin .062" spine. It's dangerously thin and would not be considered reliable if I sold it. It's an ultra-laser that I am likely to find myself repairing at times, but that's no big deal for me so I'm going to enjoy using it. It too will have a desert Ironwood handle. My wife has been bugging me to make a knife for our kitchen with an ironwood handle ever since I shipped your knife to you.

Best regards,
CK

Beautiful. Do you still make the fillet knives with Lance ¨surfingringo¨?