I take it you are equally interested in the upcoming mule whether it's run (relatively) hard or soft ?
I am. Honestly, my experience with AEB-L (and 12c27) is that when run soft in a fixed blade it performs well because it's tougher (fewer chips). It's not a steel that holds an edge as well as most of the steels I use regularly, even if it's at the high end of hardness, so I prefer it to be softer for a fixed blade platform, because I expect to use it in a way that will chip a harder edge quite often. I have never been able to use this class of steel without frequent sharpening anyway, so I'd rather have it be tougher but need sharpening more often. I have some relatively high hardness AEB-L fixed blades (Bradford Guardian @ 61 HRC and paring knife) in the same blades that I have in other steels (M390, 4v, Cruwear, etc) and I've found that I prefer the other steels to the high hardness AEB-L. I'd love to play around with lower hardness (i.e. higher toughness) AEB-L and see if that appeals to me more.
That's a quality, thoughtful answer. I like your reasoning. Thanks!
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Page 11, sounds like BBB was not involved with the HT for the mule? BBB says "If another AEB-L run is done, I would like more involvement if possible" and Sal responds "I believe the Mules are already done. If reaction is good and our customers (ELU) want more AEB-L, I'll get you involved."
Someone want to verify my read of the thread ^ on the above?
Also, same thread, Steeltoez says: "My urban was Rockwell tested at 58.3" and he's referring to the AEB-L version.
So what does the above imply?
According to Sal the Urban did have BBB HT and so will the Mule. Shawn just wants more involvement like picking the batch. He goes on to talk about Aeb-l HT being sensitive to the exact composition.
Tagging Larrin Thomas (Knife Steel Nerds) & Shawn Houston (BBB) and hoping to hear from them.
@Deadboxhero
@Larrin
I welcome dialog, as long as it remains cordial, constructive and is conducted in a civilized manner. - Titanic: Blood & Steel
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln
Page 11, sounds like BBB was not involved with the HT for the mule? BBB says "If another AEB-L run is done, I would like more involvement if possible" and Sal responds "I believe the Mules are already done. If reaction is good and our customers (ELU) want more AEB-L, I'll get you involved."
Someone want to verify my read of the thread ^ on the above?
Also, same thread, Steeltoez says: "My urban was Rockwell tested at 58.3" and he's referring to the AEB-L version.
So what does the above imply?
According to Sal the Urban did have BBB HT and so will the Mule. Shawn just wants more involvement like picking the batch. He goes on to talk about Aeb-l HT being sensitive to the exact composition.
I believe Sal said BBB consulted on the HT for the AEB-L Urban. So you may not see big differences. That being said, I'm still interested in this mule as well.
Nope
...with the Sal quote being 2022 and the Shawn quote being 2023.
Not that the consult matters to me, I'm just trying to read the tea leaves to see whether the AEBL is going to be on the hard side, like Shawn appears to favor, at least in a post I read. Maybe Shawn will jump in and clear this up. (And he'll take me to the woodshed for my use of ellipsis.)
...That doesn't mean if it's 61-62rc its bad but it would be very exciting to go harder without detriment to take advantage of the high edge stability and increase the resistance to deformation so we can push the edge geometry thinner with a microstructure that can support it.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
I have a small custom slip joint in AEB-L at about 63 RC. It is very thin stock, like .06” range, and was a near zero grind when I got it. I run angles well under 10 degrees with it and it is a tremendous slicer. It is so thin that when dull it still out slices most sharp pocket knives. It resharpens extremely quickly and takes very crisp and clean edges with ease. With a good heat treat AEB-L is a great steel if you are willing to go very thin with the blade and edge to take advantage of its properties. Having an AEB-L blade with a .025” edge at 17 degrees per side will underwhelm you with the performance compared to a mega carbide steel. If I tried to run most mega carbide steels as thin and acute as my AEB-L slip joint though it would end up causing a lot of damage to the edge that would take a long time to fix.
I have a small custom slip joint in AEB-L at about 63 RC. It is very thin stock, like .06” range, and was a near zero grind when I got it. I run angles well under 10 degrees with it and it is a tremendous slicer. It is so thin that when dull it still out slices most sharp pocket knives. It resharpens extremely quickly and takes very crisp and clean edges with ease. With a good heat treat AEB-L is a great steel if you are willing to go very thin with the blade and edge to take advantage of its properties. Having an AEB-L blade with a .025” edge at 17 degrees per side will underwhelm you with the performance compared to a mega carbide steel. If I tried to run most mega carbide steels as thin and acute as my AEB-L slip joint though it would end up causing a lot of damage to the edge that would take a long time to fix.
Great explanation. If only people focused as much on geometry as they did on steel...
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
sal
Sal can you please tell me why a Manix 2 Maxamet in G10 doesn't exist? Or a Manix 2 G10 in K390? Sal the people are dying for this. Sometimes I drive extra fast on the highway and long after these two options.
I have a small custom slip joint in AEB-L at about 63 RC. It is very thin stock, like .06” range, and was a near zero grind when I got it. I run angles well under 10 degrees with it and it is a tremendous slicer. It is so thin that when dull it still out slices most sharp pocket knives. It resharpens extremely quickly and takes very crisp and clean edges with ease. With a good heat treat AEB-L is a great steel if you are willing to go very thin with the blade and edge to take advantage of its properties. Having an AEB-L blade with a .025” edge at 17 degrees per side will underwhelm you with the performance compared to a mega carbide steel. If I tried to run most mega carbide steels as thin and acute as my AEB-L slip joint though it would end up causing a lot of damage to the edge that would take a long time to fix.
I guess that what you described means the steel has a good edge stability, good strength. I did not know AEB-L could be ran as thin as some of the super steels that have excellent edge stability!
In the collection : Lots of different steels, in lots of different (and same) Spydercos.
Robin. Finally made an IG : ramo_knives MNOSD member 004* aka Mr. N5s
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
sal
Sal can you please tell me why a Manix 2 Maxamet in G10 doesn't exist? Or a Manix 2 G10 in K390? Sal the people are dying for this. Sometimes I drive extra fast on the highway and long after these two options.
Hi Gothicus,
Welcome to our forum.
Making knives the way we make them is more complicated than it might appear. Trying to create all of the model variations that all of our customers want is even more complicated. We get to them as we can.
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
sal
Sal can you please tell me why a Manix 2 Maxamet in G10 doesn't exist? Or a Manix 2 G10 in K390? Sal the people are dying for this. Sometimes I drive extra fast on the highway and long after these two options.
Hi Gothicus,
Welcome to our forum.
Making knives the way we make them is more complicated than it might appear. Trying to create all of the model variations that all of our customers want is even more complicated. We get to them as we can.
sal
I am honestly really blown away by the variety that you guys offer as a constant. It would be easy to keep coming out with different stuff by simply dropping models left and right (and subsequently discontinuing whatever else) but the catalog you maintain is simply stunning and a testament to your dedication to give the customers what they want. Very well played, Sal.
I have a small custom slip joint in AEB-L at about 63 RC. It is very thin stock, like .06” range, and was a near zero grind when I got it. I run angles well under 10 degrees with it and it is a tremendous slicer. It is so thin that when dull it still out slices most sharp pocket knives. It resharpens extremely quickly and takes very crisp and clean edges with ease. With a good heat treat AEB-L is a great steel if you are willing to go very thin with the blade and edge to take advantage of its properties. Having an AEB-L blade with a .025” edge at 17 degrees per side will underwhelm you with the performance compared to a mega carbide steel. If I tried to run most mega carbide steels as thin and acute as my AEB-L slip joint though it would end up causing a lot of damage to the edge that would take a long time to fix.
I guess that what you described means the steel has a good edge stability, good strength. I did not know AEB-L could be ran as thin as some of the super steels that have excellent edge stability!
AEB-L is used as a razor blade steel, and it was designed to have very high edge stability. It has a small number of very fine carbides, and when ran at high hardness with a proper heat treat it has extremely high edge stability.
AEB-L is used as a razor blade steel, and it was designed to have very high edge stability. It has a small number of very fine carbides, and when ran at high hardness with a proper heat treat it has extremely high edge stability.
I was planning on only getting one to make a handle for someone, but this steel interests me more and more !
However, it's easy to find AEB-L here in France so I might just wait and make my own blades in it, I've used 14C28N and love it, but I'd like to see the difference if there is any to feel.
In the collection : Lots of different steels, in lots of different (and same) Spydercos.
Robin. Finally made an IG : ramo_knives MNOSD member 004* aka Mr. N5s
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
sal
Sal can you please tell me why a Manix 2 Maxamet in G10 doesn't exist? Or a Manix 2 G10 in K390? Sal the people are dying for this. Sometimes I drive extra fast on the highway and long after these two options.
Hi Gothicus,
Welcome to our forum.
Making knives the way we make them is more complicated than it might appear. Trying to create all of the model variations that all of our customers want is even more complicated. We get to them as we can.
sal
Hey thanks for the warm welcome and explanation. Love your designs
Seems confusing? I was under the impression that the Urban in AEB-L had Shawn's heat treat, but it seems that I was mistaken. I believe that the Mule in AEB-L has Shawn's heat treat. I'll RC it.
sal
Thanks man! Appreciated.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
I have a small custom slip joint in AEB-L at about 63 RC. It is very thin stock, like .06” range, and was a near zero grind when I got it. I run angles well under 10 degrees with it and it is a tremendous slicer. It is so thin that when dull it still out slices most sharp pocket knives. It resharpens extremely quickly and takes very crisp and clean edges with ease. With a good heat treat AEB-L is a great steel if you are willing to go very thin with the blade and edge to take advantage of its properties. Having an AEB-L blade with a .025” edge at 17 degrees per side will underwhelm you with the performance compared to a mega carbide steel. If I tried to run most mega carbide steels as thin and acute as my AEB-L slip joint though it would end up causing a lot of damage to the edge that would take a long time to fix.
…
AEB-L is used as a razor blade steel, and it was designed to have very high edge stability. It has a small number of very fine carbides, and when ran at high hardness with a proper heat treat it has extremely high edge stability.
Excellent info, gunmike, thanks for this. What I hear you saying is that it's a razor blade steel so we should use it in razor-blade-like configurations and edges. You just sold me on the idea of the AEB-L mule, and I'll put as acute an edge on it as my Hapstone will allow (which I think is somewhere around 12?).
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Depending on the grind and type of Hapstone I’ve gotten down to about 8 degrees per side, but some knives might only be able to get down to 12 degrees per side.
I would caution people that going extremely thin, even with a steel like AEB-L that does very well with thin edges and grinds, you do need to have some knowledge about the limitations of very thin edges. For cutting cardboard or light rope, etc, my ultra thin AEB-L slip joint is amazing. But if I get careless and slam edge first into a huge staple in a box it will chip, possibly bad. But I’ve learned over the years to avoid slamming into a big staple, or trying to cut a bunch of wires with near zero ground blades. You need to cut straight to avoid side loading very thin edges. I damaged a lot of knives over the years pushing the envelope on geometry to get a good feel for the capabilities of thin blades.
The point is that AEB-L, especially relative to many modern mega carbide steels, should be able to run a thinner and more acute edge before taking any damage due to the high edge stability from very good toughness and the ability to reach high hardness. Compared to a ZDP Caly Jr I had reground to a very thin high hollow grind my AEB-L slip joint is thinner, slices better, and takes far less damage. It also sharpens quicker and takes far less time to eliminate damage, and it takes very crisp edges. If you like to polish edges out to insane finishes AEB-L can be a lot of fun. I’m sure the AEB-L Mule Team will be similar geometry to all the other Mule Team releases, and you will definitely need to sharpen it to a more acute angle, and /or possibly regrind the whole blade thinner to optimize the slicing performance. If Spyderco released the knife as thin as I like there’d be a lot of people badly chipping and likely breaking some of the blades, so I get why they wouldn’t release a knife that thin. Plus some people might want to use it as a camp knife, which needs a thicker grind.
I would caution people that going extremely thin, even with a steel like AEB-L that does very well with thin edges and grinds, you do need to have some knowledge about the limitations of very thin edges. For cutting cardboard or light rope, etc, my ultra thin AEB-L slip joint is amazing. But if I get careless and slam edge first into a huge staple in a box it will chip, possibly bad. But I’ve learned over the years to avoid slamming into a big staple, or trying to cut a bunch of wires with near zero ground blades. You need to cut straight to avoid side loading very thin edges. I damaged a lot of knives over the years pushing the envelope on geometry to get a good feel for the capabilities of thin blades.
The point is that AEB-L, especially relative to many modern mega carbide steels, should be able to run a thinner and more acute edge before taking any damage due to the high edge stability from very good toughness and the ability to reach high hardness. Compared to a ZDP Caly Jr I had reground to a very thin high hollow grind my AEB-L slip joint is thinner, slices better, and takes far less damage. It also sharpens quicker and takes far less time to eliminate damage, and it takes very crisp edges. If you like to polish edges out to insane finishes AEB-L can be a lot of fun. I’m sure the AEB-L Mule Team will be similar geometry to all the other Mule Team releases, and you will definitely need to sharpen it to a more acute angle, and /or possibly regrind the whole blade thinner to optimize the slicing performance. If Spyderco released the knife as thin as I like there’d be a lot of people badly chipping and likely breaking some of the blades, so I get why they wouldn’t release a knife that thin. Plus some people might want to use it as a camp knife, which needs a thicker grind.
Thanks gunmike, great advice and summary of the pros and cons of thinning out an edge.
I'd still really like to know what the HRC is going to be before the 18th. I would be really psyched of it is something at 64 HRC or higher, but if it's more in the 68-62 range then I feel like it wouldn't really be taking advantage of the toughness for edge stability in the way I'd like.
