CPM 15v Manix 2

[JSumm]

It is amazing how many different steels there are on opposite sides of the spectrum that people swear by. I am always just trying to learn more, now going down the rabbit hole of “Toughness”.

Below is a neat video on a S30V Shaman chipping Chen it cut this thin plastic/wire ties used to hold toys in package. Regardless of edge geometry is that an indication of low “toughness” or more of a reflection of low strength and hardness? Because this is something I want my steel to cut on the rare occasion with less chance of damage.

Damage and tie down shown at 2:15 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/gn3aDv3jpJU

I join Jsumm in his message ! And just to puzzle you even more : I have cut worst stuff with S110V and got no damage

As JSumm said, inducing lateral force in your cut is totally different than just pushing the apex of the edge right through the material you need to cut. The person is talking about how he cut the wires in this video. And he's implying some sort of twisting motion. This kind of motion is more akin to leverage than cutting, that must be the reason the chips occured.

Yeah, I think S110V gets a bad rap.

Once, I accidentally cut through a metal wire not knowing it was in the material I was cutting. The knife blade was in M4 a notoriously "tough" fracture resistant steel. A large portion of the edge rolled and was pretty much useless after that. Don't know, but I would guess this M4 was run probably soft from this particular other maker. Now that knife is thick at the edge, and if it is run softer it would probably be very difficult to chip that particular knife's edge. However, for me it was not one I really enjoyed.

[WilliamMunny]

Sometimes I wonder if people understand how to cut certain materials properly, to avoid edge damage. I've seen guys at work using knives and cut things at very odd angles that make it much more difficult and also allows the possibility of damage to the edge.

No that makes a ton of sense. If you were torquing the edge / putting lateral pressure on the edge it is likely to chip no matter what you have. But I am assuming there are more forgiving steels and steels that are better cutters like 15v.

[Deadboxhero]

There's no "regardless of geometry"

That guy is using the factory edge to cut thin soft metal wire.

Have you measured the geometry of wire cutters?
Are they at 15° to 17° per side?

What happens if that gentleman resharpened his knife to 30° per side, if the edge takes less damage does that mean the s30v steel got tougher?

We have to go beyond the surface to see what's going on.

I don't think there is any correct answer to your question, except depends. What are you cutting? How much are you cutting? What do you sharpen with? How often are you able to sharpen? You will see a lot of opinions on here from people edc'ing H1 to Maxament and all being enjoyed. I think that is why Sal always says all good, just different. I think this steel benefits a lot of people that value high wear resistant steels with good edge stability. Others will prefer something that touches up easily and do not need the extra wear resistance. All good, just different. 15V is not far behind S30V the standard Manix steel in toughness (fracture resistance), but offers significant upgrade in wear resistance and hardness. My guess much better edge stability too. Just something different that excels in something different. All to be enjoyed. And the answer to your question may just be what steel do you enjoy? That ultimately will be the most enjoyable (not best) EDC steel for you.

I think you are right, for my benefit I will have to buy all the knives to find out what I like best. Just too many different opinions out there, I will have to take one for the team.

Good points with S30V, I was never a huge fan. It chipped on me a few times and I felt like it never really held an edge well. But then again it could have been my sharpening habits.

Sharpening is everything, and even if you buy a lot of knives before finding the best knife and steel combo for you, it sadly won't apply to anybody else but you !
We all use our knives differently for different tasks, and sharpen differently ! The number of factors going in between buying a knife and then liking it or not is so big that it is almost impossible to give objective feedback to help people in their choice.

It is amazing how many different steels there are on opposite sides of the spectrum that people swear by. I am always just trying to learn more, now going down the rabbit hole of “Toughness”.

Below is a neat video on a S30V Shaman chipping Chen it cut this thin plastic/wire ties used to hold toys in package. Regardless of edge geometry is that an indication of low “toughness” or more of a reflection of low strength and hardness? Because this is something I want my steel to cut on the rare occasion with less chance of damage.

Damage and tie down shown at 2:15 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/gn3aDv3jpJU

[WilliamMunny]

Whats going on with this thread?

Spyderco puts a super steel in a US made knife at a great price and people are complaining.

Just dont buy it if you think it wont work for you.

Yea, there's a lot of surprising twists going on in here. Strange. This is a pretty amazing offering, not sure how or why there's plots of negativity throughout it.

No negativity from me, seems like an amazing offering. But with a fairly new steel and heat treat comes a lot of questions. It’s funny but I have learned a ton from this thread.

[WilliamMunny]

There's no "regardless of geometry"

That guy is using the factory edge to cut thin soft metal wire.

Have you measured the geometry of wire cutters?
Are they at 15° to 17° per side?

What happens if that gentleman resharpened his knife to 30° per side, if the edge takes less damage does that mean the s30v steel got tougher?

We have to go beyond the surface to see what's going on.

I think you are right, for my benefit I will have to buy all the knives to find out what I like best. Just too many different opinions out there, I will have to take one for the team.

Good points with S30V, I was never a huge fan. It chipped on me a few times and I felt like it never really held an edge well. But then again it could have been my sharpening habits.

Sharpening is everything, and even if you buy a lot of knives before finding the best knife and steel combo for you, it sadly won't apply to anybody else but you !
We all use our knives differently for different tasks, and sharpen differently ! The number of factors going in between buying a knife and then liking it or not is so big that it is almost impossible to give objective feedback to help people in their choice.

It is amazing how many different steels there are on opposite sides of the spectrum that people swear by. I am always just trying to learn more, now going down the rabbit hole of “Toughness”.

Below is a neat video on a S30V Shaman chipping Chen it cut this thin plastic/wire ties used to hold toys in package. Regardless of edge geometry is that an indication of low “toughness” or more of a reflection of low strength and hardness? Because this is something I want my steel to cut on the rare occasion with less chance of damage.

Damage and tie down shown at 2:15 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/gn3aDv3jpJU

Is geometry more important than the steel? Will a well sharpened 8Cr out cut a poorly sharpened S90V?

If this is true you should start an online sharpening school. $50 per person for an hour class of 20 people giving live instruction on how to sharpen.

[Ramonade]

Well we were not talking about edge retention but about toughness, so it is another discussion once gain. There's the apexing of the edge, and the choice of the edge. Like deadboxhero/BBB/Shawn said.

[WilliamMunny]

Well we were not talking about edge retention but about toughness, so it is another discussion once gain. There's the apexing of the edge, and the choice of the edge. Like deadboxhero/BBB/Shawn said.

Any which way if I am lucky enough I will have to buy this knife with how patient Shawn has been with all my questions. I think hands on will help me lean the qualities, positive and negative, of a high edge retention steel like this. My CBN rods are on the way to help sharpen it.

[Deadboxhero]

Edge geometry is a really big deal, you'll have folks say that "steel X" is not as tough as "steel Y" with complete disregard to edge geometry meaning they are not testing steels they are testing geometry.


You'll also have some knife companies/makers argue how durable their steel is when in fact it's just thicker edge geometry and thicker blade geometry.


Here is an important page from Dr Larrin Thomas's book "Knife Engineering"
https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Engineerin ... 8800&psc=1



"What am I looking at?"


This is a destructive test showing the effects and differences between thinner and thicker edge angles with a edge impact tester.

Both conditions are AEB-L at 61rc clamped into the impacter which uses a gravity pendulum to swing a 3/16" (.1875") rod to impact into the edge so we can observe in a controlled manner how much impact energy these edges can absorb before failure.

The conclusion here is that 15dps is extremely delicate, only a little force needed before chipping you'll notice the same steel but at 25 dps can absorb a great deal more before large chipping is seen.


This is why it's absolutely crucial to customize your edge to your needs, if you want your knife to perform more like an axe, thicker geometry is inescapable. The best part is, you can change your angles if you change your mind.

What is not shown in this test is that the 15° per side edge can be considerably sharper and has significantly better cutting ability and sharpenability. So, what folks will do to enjoy the increased performance with low angles is they will avoid using that acute edge for non cutting tasks because the thicker edge can be a punishment to performance for actual cutting.

So take the red pill and escape the matrix, otherwise you're at the mercy of whatever YouTube video you watch where somebody or some company is telling you this or that when it's just plain old geometry.


So as the saying goes, geometry geometry geometry.

There's no "regardless of geometry"

That guy is using the factory edge to cut thin soft metal wire.

Have you measured the geometry of wire cutters?
Are they at 15° to 17° per side?

What happens if that gentleman resharpened his knife to 30° per side, if the edge takes less damage does that mean the s30v steel got tougher?

We have to go beyond the surface to see what's going on.

Sharpening is everything, and even if you buy a lot of knives before finding the best knife and steel combo for you, it sadly won't apply to anybody else but you !
We all use our knives differently for different tasks, and sharpen differently ! The number of factors going in between buying a knife and then liking it or not is so big that it is almost impossible to give objective feedback to help people in their choice.

It is amazing how many different steels there are on opposite sides of the spectrum that people swear by. I am always just trying to learn more, now going down the rabbit hole of “Toughness”.

Below is a neat video on a S30V Shaman chipping Chen it cut this thin plastic/wire ties used to hold toys in package. Regardless of edge geometry is that an indication of low “toughness” or more of a reflection of low strength and hardness? Because this is something I want my steel to cut on the rare occasion with less chance of damage.

Damage and tie down shown at 2:15 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/gn3aDv3jpJU

Is geometry more important than the steel? Will a well sharpened 8Cr out cut a poorly sharpened S90V?

If this is true you should start an online sharpening school. $50 per person for an hour class of 20 people giving live instruction on how to sharpen.

[aaronkb]

I don't think there is any correct answer to your question, except depends. What are you cutting? How much are you cutting? What do you sharpen with? How often are you able to sharpen? You will see a lot of opinions on here from people edc'ing H1 to Maxament and all being enjoyed. I think that is why Sal always says all good, just different. I think this steel benefits a lot of people that value high wear resistant steels with good edge stability. Others will prefer something that touches up easily and do not need the extra wear resistance. All good, just different. 15V is not far behind S30V the standard Manix steel in toughness (fracture resistance), but offers significant upgrade in wear resistance and hardness. My guess much better edge stability too. Just something different that excels in something different. All to be enjoyed. And the answer to your question may just be what steel do you enjoy? That ultimately will be the most enjoyable (not best) EDC steel for you.

I think you are right, for my benefit I will have to buy all the knives to find out what I like best. Just too many different opinions out there, I will have to take one for the team.

Good points with S30V, I was never a huge fan. It chipped on me a few times and I felt like it never really held an edge well. But then again it could have been my sharpening habits.

Sharpening is everything, and even if you buy a lot of knives before finding the best knife and steel combo for you, it sadly won't apply to anybody else but you !
We all use our knives differently for different tasks, and sharpen differently ! The number of factors going in between buying a knife and then liking it or not is so big that it is almost impossible to give objective feedback to help people in their choice.

It is amazing how many different steels there are on opposite sides of the spectrum that people swear by. I am always just trying to learn more, now going down the rabbit hole of “Toughness”.

Below is a neat video on a S30V Shaman chipping Chen it cut this thin plastic/wire ties used to hold toys in package. Regardless of edge geometry is that an indication of low “toughness” or more of a reflection of low strength and hardness? Because this is something I want my steel to cut on the rare occasion with less chance of damage.

Damage and tie down shown at 2:15 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/gn3aDv3jpJU

-He confirmed in the comments that it was the factory edge, which is always weaker than the steel will be once you’ve sharpened it a few times.

-Those ties have a metal center, I’m surprised he used a knife rather than just untwisting them as intended. I think he was overeager to use his new toy. There aren’t many knives/steels I’d do that with.

-As others have pointed out, he probably used some lateral force when cutting.

-And finally, I’d argue that’s more a matter of strength than toughness. Toughness determines whether the steel will break or just bend a little and then maybe come back, maybe not…. Strength makes it rigid enough to do neither. A harder steel like k390 or rex 45 would perform better.

[WilliamMunny]

Thanks for the info, trying to wrap my head around strength vs toughness and when they come into play.

[JSumm]

William, take a minute, and check out the article below. Lots of great info. and plenty more on his site if you are really curious. Larrin is a member here and a regular contributor.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/ ... stability/

[Wandering_About]

A perhaps somewhat sloppy but simple way to think of strength versus toughness is strength is resistance to bending and toughness is resistance to breaking. That's my best attempt at simplifying the terms down, anyway.

[Josh Crutchley]

I've learned toughness doesn't equal edge stability from using Maxamet. There's a lot that goes into edge stability and I'm still trying to understand it all. In my limited testing steels that have higher toughness on paper seem to chip or roll easier than low toughness steels like Maxamet or S110V.

I don't buy knives based on their edge retention or toughness I just get what I'm most curious about at the time. I'm still kinda in the gotta try em all stage but there seems to be something about high alloy and high hrc steels that keeps dragging me back to them.

[WilliamMunny]

I've learned toughness doesn't equal edge stability from using Maxamet. There's a lot that goes into edge stability and I'm still trying to understand it all. In my limited testing steels that have higher toughness on paper seem to chip or roll easier than low toughness steels like Maxamet or S110V.

I don't buy knives based on their edge retention or toughness I just get what I'm most curious about at the time. I'm still kinda in the gotta try em all stage but there seems to be something about high alloy and high hrc steels that keeps dragging me back to them.

I like your thought process, just get what interests and works for you.

It gets very complicated… what steel do you have, what is the heat treat, how stick is the blade, what angle is is sharpened too, was it by hand or fixed sharpening, what stone was used, what part of the knife did you cut with and so on.

At some point you just need to say, “Sal and Shaun give me a cool knife I can use the **** out of.” Spyderco has not disappoint me yet.

[TkoK83Spy]

Don't think so hard about it. Get one, use it, sharpen to your best ability and enjoy it. Thinking too hard takes lot of the fun out of things.

[aaronkb]

Thanks for the info, trying to wrap my head around strength vs toughness and when they come into play.

Supersteel Steve used to have some great videos explaining it, but a while back he took down most of his channel and said he’d be uploading them on Rumble. I can’t find anything which is a bummer, but if somebody else can find it that might be helpful.

[weeping minora]

In the most simplified terms, "toughness" indicates how steel will deform when stressed (chip, roll, flatten...) and "strength" will tell you when that deformation will begin to occur (yield strength) and up to ultimate failure (tensile strength). Many other factors at play amongst these two attributes that don't really interplay within the scope of pocket knives (IMO).

[aaronkb]

In the most simplified terms, "toughness" indicates how steel will deform when stressed (chip, roll, flatten...) and "strength" will tell you when that deformation will begin to occur (yield strength) and up to ultimate failure (tensile strength). Many other factors at play amongst these two attributes that don't really interplay within the scope of pocket knives (IMO).

This is the best explanation I’ve seen, well said.

[Deadboxhero]

Factory sharpness


CATRA testing edge


Toothy edge with stropping


Mirror polished edge


BESS sharpness chart

[Brock O Lee]

This graph reminds me that us edge junkies are a very select minority of users, and we enjoy spending our time splitting hairs (about the finest details).