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Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:57 pm
by Wartstein
Hi Sal,
Almost two years ago you mentioned you´d have
"a design for Polestar back-lock planned for Golden" (
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86639&p=1421475#p1421472)
May I ask if that project is still "alive"?
I assume, being a backlock but looking like the current linerlock Polestar, such a model would offer the "handle forward" design?! (Which would be great!)
If a backlock Polestar kept thee specs of the linerlock version, it would be a lot like a G10 Leaf Jumper - almost as compact when closed (4.51 vs 4.43 inches), but with more cutting edge (3.15 vs 2.85 inches)
(For all who might not know what the current linerlock Polestar (
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C220GGY/1023) looks like, see the pic below from the Spyderco site)
Edited for adding text to the subject line
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:39 am
by sal
Hi Warstein,
Very astute and with a good memory.
I guess you deserve some history;
The purpose of the original design was to be a smaller military that would work for the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. The Alcyone was the smaller version. I felt that the two designs would be a good offering for Scouts. They could learn knives with quality piece, Walker Linerlock for easy one hand close with gloves, small enough, and large enough for good work. Made in China, by one of our good makers so it wouldn't be hard on the pocketbook.
Unfortunately, it's been out for a while and has not received the attention I think it deserves. When I have what I think is a good design that is not being well received, I seek to know why. Since the pattern, I feel is sound, there was the Walker Linerock, the G-10 color/pattern and the made in China were potential drawbacks.
The Golden made version with a mid-lock-back and a "Handle forward" design seemed like the answer. However, we are currently really backed up in Golden. While Eric is increasing production every month, it is not ready for a new design, so the design is on hold for now. When the addition is completed, we'll be able to fit it in?
We've just made some adjustments to the original design. A different color G-10 and CTS-BD1N. We'll hide-n-watch before moving on the Golden version. I also thought about making the mid-lock-back version in China? It's a very functional design. I've carried and used it quite a bit and it makes a good EDC.
sal
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 am
by ZrowsN1s
Of the 3 potential drawbacks you mentioned a backlock Golden version would address the 2 that kept me from considering the design.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:02 am
by Ramonade
Wartstein, you are on fire with the threads lately !
And thank you Sal for the history of the model.
Only reason I didn't buy one was the color of the G10. I'll definitely buy the gray G-10 version (apparently one of the EU dealers I use already has them), and the switch to BD1N is just cherry on the cake.
PS : I really don't know if this expression translates to you guys, and I hope it does not mean something like popping any fruit.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:14 am
by olywa
No worries. "with a cherry on top" is a pretty common figure of speech here. Means a little something extra that makes a good thing better.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:21 am
by Mushroom
ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 am
Of the 3 potential drawbacks you mentioned a backlock Golden version would address the 2 that kept me from considering the design.
I would expect the price to nearly triple when it’s made in Golden. Would you still want one?
I only ask that because I don’t think most people will. Once it’s removed from the “budget” line it is going to have much stiffer competition at its new price range. Since they were initially made in China and have been marketed as being “Designed specifically for budget-conscious knife users” I can’t help but think the models themselves will always carry that budget design “made in China” connotation.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:42 am
by Wartstein
sal wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:39 am
Hi Warstein,
Very astute and with a good memory.
I guess you deserve some history;
......
Thanks Sal for the reply and especially the history lesson, really appreciate that!
- I could imagine that actually the Tenacious was potentially a (too) stiff competition for the Polestar? Especially in the "scout" "budget" arena? The Polestar, while certainly a very good value, still costs about 50 % more than a Tenacious LW, and for "scouts on a budget" (not really into knives, steels, materials (yet) ) perhaps there won´t be much noticeable difference between the two models - ?
- I really hope the upgrade to BD1N and the new handle color will help the popularity of the design - though I have to be honest: While I and certainly many others on the forum do find BD1N an upgrade over "just" BD1, I am afraid that perhaps many of the "regular" customers won´t even notice - especially those more into the "budget" models - ?
And while I think the new, grey handle looks great, the "old" textured one was beautiful too.
- I personally would love to see a backlock handle forward Polestar made in Golden, especially if it had the great "Golden type backlock", just like the Native. Of course this would not be a budget line folder anymore, but that´d be just fine with me.
Nick/Mushroom makes a good point though, and perhaps it would have to get another name then, so that the "budget line connection" many might already have established in their brains with "Polestar", is eliminated..?
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:59 am
by ZrowsN1s
Mushroom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:21 am
ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 am
Of the 3 potential drawbacks you mentioned a backlock Golden version would address the 2 that kept me from considering the design.
I would expect the price to nearly triple when it’s made in Golden. Would you still want one?
I only ask that because I don’t think most people will. Once it’s removed from the “budget” line it is going to have much stiffer competition at its new price range. Since they were initially made in China and have been marketed as being “Designed specifically for budget-conscious knife users” I can’t help but think the models themselves will always carry that budget design “made in China” connotation.
Would I pay triple for a knife vs the budget line. Yes. Yes I would, and my collection reflects that.
I realize I occupy a small but vocal minority in the market. But changing the lock type and having it made in Golden would take it from a knife that I am 100% never going to consider buying, to one I would consider buying.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:41 pm
by Mushroom
ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:59 am
Mushroom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:21 am
ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:13 am
Of the 3 potential drawbacks you mentioned a backlock Golden version would address the 2 that kept me from considering the design.
I would expect the price to nearly triple when it’s made in Golden. Would you still want one?
I only ask that because I don’t think most people will. Once it’s removed from the “budget” line it is going to have much stiffer competition at its new price range. Since they were initially made in China and have been marketed as being “Designed specifically for budget-conscious knife users” I can’t help but think the models themselves will always carry that budget design “made in China” connotation.
Would I pay triple for a knife vs the budget line. Yes. Yes I would, and my collection reflects that.
I realize I occupy a small but vocal minority in the market. But changing the lock type and having it made in Golden would take it from a knife that I am 100% never going to consider buying, to one I would consider buying.
That’s a different question than what I was asking, but I understand your point.
I wasn’t asking if you’d be willing to pay triple for knife
versus the budget series but would you be willing to pay nearly triple for a knife
from the budget series? The Polestar in particular.
I have to imagine it is only part of the budget series by choice though. I’m not saying it’s a “budget design” but it has been part of the budget series for a long time and that’s where it has created a reputation for itself. There have been similar conversations here about the Tenacious in the past as well. Once the knife creates its reputation as part of the “budget series,” can it ever escape that reputation? (Hypothetical)
Of course, once it’s made to Golden level quality standards it will no longer be a “budget series” knife but it might still carry that “budget reputation.”
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:08 pm
by bjz
Personally, I’d like to see if any of the Chinese makers have gotten to the point where they can successfully pull off a compression lock!
I prefer the comp lock because it allows for an open frame design, can be operated almost just like a back lock and perhaps is more left-hand friendly.
My newly acquired alcyone (the old scales, that are fantastic) is going to be displacing a para 3 LW and an SE native lw! While I suspect the alcyone wouldn’t be a good candidate for comp lock because of the placement of the clip, it would, however, be a great (and heavier) back lock.
I’ve tried not to let country of origin influence my choices lately and you know what, soon here my sock drawer will be filled with just budget line models and a small handful of Taichung/Seki models…no Golden. Wait, that’s not true, I always forget about the UKPN which is incredible, but always gets overshadowed by locking models these days. The budget line designs are just sooooo good, every one!
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:23 pm
by BornIn1500
bjz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:08 pm
Personally, I’d like to see if any of the Chinese makers have gotten to the point where they can successfully pull off a compression lock!
I'd love that. I said it before.... a Polestar with a compression lock would be the greatest knife ever made. It would have everything. The best lock, the "handle-forward" design, great ergos. I'd buy it regardless of what country it was made in. I carry the Polestar frequently but the big cutout for the lock makes it feel awkwardly hollow for my index finger. I realize a backlock would solve that issue, but I don't think I'd buy one.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:29 pm
by Mushroom
BornIn1500 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:23 pm
bjz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:08 pm
Personally, I’d like to see if any of the Chinese makers have gotten to the point where they can successfully pull off a compression lock!
I'd love that. I said it before.... a Polestar with a compression lock would be the greatest knife ever made. It would have everything. The best lock, the "handle-forward" design, great ergos. I'd buy it regardless of what country it was made in. I carry the Polestar frequently but the big cutout for the lock makes it feel awkwardly hollow for my index finger. I realize a backlock would solve that issue, but I don't think I'd buy one.
Spyderco initially made the Reinhold Rhino, a compression lock, in
China Taipei but the entire batch didn’t pass quality control and was put on hold. Eventually the decision was made to move Rhino production to Taichung.
I don’t know if the reason for failing QC had anything to do with the lock but it shows at least that Spyderco is willing to implement the compression into budget series knives.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:38 pm
by SG89
I thought the original rhino was Taipei?
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:09 pm
by Wartstein
BornIn1500 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:23 pm
bjz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:08 pm
Personally, I’d like to see if any of the Chinese makers have gotten to the point where they can successfully pull off a compression lock!
I'd love that. I said it before.... a Polestar with a compression lock would be the greatest knife ever made. It would have everything. The best lock, the "handle-forward" design, great ergos. I'd buy it regardless of what country it was made in. I carry the Polestar frequently but the big cutout for the lock makes it feel awkwardly hollow for my index finger. I realize a backlock would solve that issue, but I don't think I'd buy one.
(To be clear: I do prefer the backlock over the comp.lock, but this time the following has nothing to do with this).
- I think marketingwise a comp.lock Polestar would be a different story than a backlock Polestar - while an "edge all the way to the handle" design is more "usual" or what people expect to be possible with comp. or linerlock Spydie this is not the case with a backlock (yet) - just the RockJumper offers a real handle forward design so far (one could make the point that the Centofante does somehow too) - so this could be a selling point for a backlock Polestar (or not, if the handle forward design is not as well received as it should be imo).
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:15 pm
by Mushroom
SG89 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:38 pm
I thought the original rhino was Taipei?
You are correct, it actually was made in Taipei. I just remembered it was going to be part of the budget series. Thanks for the reminder and correction!
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:17 pm
by skeeg11
Mushroom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:29 pm
BornIn1500 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:23 pm
bjz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:08 pm
Personally, I’d like to see if any of the Chinese makers have gotten to the point where they can successfully pull off a compression lock!
I'd love that. I said it before.... a Polestar with a compression lock would be the greatest knife ever made. It would have everything. The best lock, the "handle-forward" design, great ergos. I'd buy it regardless of what country it was made in. I carry the Polestar frequently but the big cutout for the lock makes it feel awkwardly hollow for my index finger. I realize a backlock would solve that issue, but I don't think I'd buy one.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the rejected 1st run of the Rhino was not made in China, but in Taipei, Taiwan.
Spyderco initially made the Reinhold Rhino, a compression lock, in China but the entire batch didn’t pass quality control and was put on hold. Eventually the decision was made to move Rhino production to Taichung.
I don’t know if the reason for failing QC had anything to do with the lock but it shows at least that Spyderco is willing to implement the compression into budget series knives.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:42 pm
by ZrowsN1s
Mushroom, I see what you're saying. No it being originally a budget line knife wouldn't deter me if it were to become a Golden Model.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:57 pm
by metaphoricalsimile
sal wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:39 am
Hi Warstein,
Very astute and with a good memory.
I guess you deserve some history;
The purpose of the original design was to be a smaller military that would work for the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. The Alcyone was the smaller version. I felt that the two designs would be a good offering for Scouts. They could learn knives with quality piece, Walker Linerlock for easy one hand close with gloves, small enough, and large enough for good work. Made in China, by one of our good makers so it wouldn't be hard on the pocketbook.
Unfortunately, it's been out for a while and has not received the attention I think it deserves. When I have what I think is a good design that is not being well received, I seek to know why. Since the pattern, I feel is sound, there was the Walker Linerock, the G-10 color/pattern and the made in China were potential drawbacks.
The Golden made version with a mid-lock-back and a "Handle forward" design seemed like the answer. However, we are currently really backed up in Golden. While Eric is increasing production every month, it is not ready for a new design, so the design is on hold for now. When the addition is completed, we'll be able to fit it in?
We've just made some adjustments to the original design. A different color G-10 and CTS-BD1N. We'll hide-n-watch before moving on the Golden version. I also thought about making the mid-lock-back version in China? It's a very functional design. I've carried and used it quite a bit and it makes a good EDC.
sal
The Alcyone is $25 more than the Persistence which is very similar in size and function and is also made in China. I feel like being more expensive than other very similar knives in the catalog is a pretty straight-forward explanation.
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:00 pm
by sal
Hi Metaphysicalsimile,
Funny, I get regular requests to up the steel quality of our budget models. Then when we do, I get regular complaints about the price. For a maker in China to use a better steel (quality, refinement, chemistry, powdered, etc), there are many other variables involved ( shipping, storage, taxes, different heat treating equipment required, closer tolerance heat treating, etc.).
So what I'm guessing is that some think we can do this with no additional costs? Or maybe some have no idea of how valuation affects costs? If a Chinese maker purchases a USA made steel, he pays the dollar value of the steel, not Yuan. Powdered metals purchased and shipped to China not only has the additional cost of the steel per pound, but shipping costs and Chinese taxes on imported goods.
The Chinese foundries are beginning to make their own versions of steels like VG-10. I guess we'll try some them and see how they stack up to the real deal?
Or maybe they're just not thinking?
I guess the up-side is that we offer both the budget model and up-scale budget model? For those with less expendable cash and for those that will part with the cash to get the better product.
sal
Re: Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:28 pm
by Coastal
I tend to buy the mainstream Spyderco knives, and only seldom the value line (or Byrd line). The only reason I ever consider the value folders is that it's the best way to get a reasonably priced liner-lock knife of decent quality. So a more expensive backlock version of a knife that's functionally similar to already existing Spyderco products probably won't excite me, even though it'll be a very nice knife.
I love the handle-forward design concept, though, and I can hardly wait for that backlock, FRN-handled Carribean!