52100 performance

[youmakemehole]

Just wanted to hear any thoughts/experiences of those who feel they have pushed their 52100 to its limits, both in toughness and edge retention? It seems that discussion on Spyderco's 52100 always takes a backseat to other more "exciting" supersteels, although I think with my limited experience using my 52100 PM3, it has performance that can match and maybe even exceed some of my other high carbide steels. From what I can tell right now, I can pretty confidently say it can perform better than CTS-XHP in nearly every regard - it holds an edge better, is tremendously tougher, sharpens as easily, and probably only is worse than XHP for corrosion resistance. 52100 performance can definitely be taken far beyond what the typical CTS-XHP is capable of though, just check out the video below:


https://youtu.be/s6YaQkXVRUA

It is interesting that the video here was also found in a fairly large forum thread in regards to 52100 where Sal and other significant members of the Spyderco community were posting in that also happened to take place before the (somewhat) recent sprint run of the CF 52100. I sort of wonder what kind of standard Spyderco had held itself to while producing the sprint, as it does seem to be a more "premium" offering even for a sprint, and given the lower cost of 52100, it makes me think perhaps the pricing might be reflecting a much more extensive (and costlier) heat treatment. One thing I do know is that their 52100 has a pretty good Rockwell rating of around 62 HRC. I also wonder if simple carbon steels such as 1095 and 52100 are able to have such a drastic variance and potential in performance coming from their HT due to their chemistry, or is it rather due to the fact that the steels are cheaper and more accessible, and therefore more thoroughly experimented on to find high performance yielding HT methods?

It'd be awesome if anyone with more knowledge or experience with this esoteric steel would be willing to share something cool or interesting they know on what I think is a very underrated offering from Spyderco!

[bearfacedkiller]

It is just a basic carbon steel like 01. I wouldn't call it esoteric. It has been around for a long time.

The cost of these knives comes from the use of PPCF which has always added significant cost to Spyderco's knives as well as the fact that 52100 isn't always easy to find in sheet form, at least not in the size/quantity that Spyderco needs. It is widely available in round bar stock for use by forgers.

XHP will have greater wear resistance than 52100. It is hard to deny that.

Bluntcut's heat treats are on a different level than production knives as well as most other custom knives. Using him as an example of what this steel can do is only applicable when comparing to other knives of his in other steels.

[JonLeBlanc]

I think it's great, well maybe not great wear resistance but that's not all that crucial to me, but it's great on wood for example. Obviously very stable edges at thin angles etc, easy to get very sharp... Love it.

[bluntcut]

Thanks Darby.

Looking back, there were hits & misses ht with super quench, quite maddening. That blade in the video was good but not that good compare to what I can ht now. At the time, I didn't know super quench is only ~30% part therefore hit/miss the rest of ht processes.

Edge retention is applicable in range of usage characteristics. Loss of edge mostly due to lateral deformation rather than compressive&abrasion wear. So optimal edge should has full elasticity range and appropriate plasticity range depend on impact load. HRC is less than linear proportional to lateral strength however stronger is better - of course while still maintain full elasticity and some plasticity.

52100 is outstanding when ht to: sub 5um grain, minimal plate martensite, 64+rc. Soon, I will do quite a bit of testing on 52100 flex and edge.

[bearfacedkiller]

Well, I may have been wrong about the availability of 52100 in sheet form. I remember Sal saying something about that before these came out (or maybe that was years ago when the 52100 mule came out). It looks like it is widely available in flats after all.

[JacksonKnives]

It's a great steel if you don't care about rust. Alas, in a pocket knife, rust is a pretty big problem.

AEB-L is also pretty great with high hardness and a thin blade.
[Wink wink, nudge nudge]

[SpyderScout]

52100 is hardly esoteric.
The video is by 'bluntcut.' Using him as a reference is neither there nor there in regards to Spyderco knives. I suspect, you dont know about him.
Three words: 'chrystal weaving foundation.'

[youmakemehole]

It is just a basic carbon steel like 01. I wouldn't call it esoteric. It has been around for a long time.

The cost of these knives comes from the use of PPCF which has always added significant cost to Spyderco's knives as well as the fact that 52100 isn't always easy to find in sheet form, at least not in the size/quantity that Spyderco needs. It is widely available in round bar stock for use by forgers.

XHP will have greater wear resistance than 52100. It is hard to deny that.

Bluntcut's heat treats are on a different level than production knives as well as most other custom knives. Using him as an example of what this steel can do is only applicable when comparing to other knives of his in other steels.

The heat treatment in specific is what I'm inferring to be esoteric. How the 52100 performs in your PM2 or PM3 is going to be very largely dependent on the HT, and so really I think you could say that this steel is really moreso defined by its HT process, which can be very different and probably also secretive depending on who/what treatment. Im aware 52100 has been around for a long time!

52100 is hardly esoteric.
The video is by 'bluntcut.' Using him as a reference is neither there nor there in regards to Spyderco knives. I suspect, you dont know about him.
Three words: 'chrystal weaving foundation.'

Youre right, I do not know much about bluntcut, other than that his video is quite impressive. Chrystal weaving foundation – care to elaborate? Sounds mysterious. I think you could at least agree that there is a lot of info on working with this steel that isn't just publicly available, info that can also bring the steel to a performance level seen in that video? So that to me is esoteric in a way, if that makes sense.

[Deadboxhero]

That's not the Steel, that's Blunt Cut.

If you want a knife like that it's easy, you just buy it from him :D

It is just a basic carbon steel like 01. I wouldn't call it esoteric. It has been around for a long time.

The cost of these knives comes from the use of PPCF which has always added significant cost to Spyderco's knives as well as the fact that 52100 isn't always easy to find in sheet form, at least not in the size/quantity that Spyderco needs. It is widely available in round bar stock for use by forgers.

XHP will have greater wear resistance than 52100. It is hard to deny that.

Bluntcut's heat treats are on a different level than production knives as well as most other custom knives. Using him as an example of what this steel can do is only applicable when comparing to other knives of his in other steels.

The heat treatment in specific is what I'm inferring to be esoteric. How the 52100 performs in your PM2 or PM3 is going to be very largely dependent on the HT, and so really I think you could say that this steel is really moreso defined by its HT process, which can be very different and probably also secretive depending on who/what treatment. Im aware 52100 has been around for a long time!

52100 is hardly esoteric.
The video is by 'bluntcut.' Using him as a reference is neither there nor there in regards to Spyderco knives. I suspect, you dont know about him.
Three words: 'chrystal weaving foundation.'

Youre right, I do not know much about bluntcut, other than that his video is quite impressive. Chrystal weaving foundation – care to elaborate? Sounds mysterious. I think you could at least agree that there is a lot of info on working with this steel that isn't just publicly available, info that can also bring the steel to a performance level seen in that video? So that to me is esoteric in a way, if that makes sense.

[David R]

I haven't checked toughness. Edge retention seems quite good cutting rope (ala Cedric & Ada). I got the best results with a toothy edge (650 grit) + light stropping. Lower and higher grits did less well for me. With 650 stones it's in the Cruwear range for edge retention. Need BBB or somebody else to explain why there would be that much difference based on stone grit.

I need to do some side-by-side testing on different Mules I have. Will be good to see how the same edges hold up with different steels and (almost) identical blade geometry. (Of course hardness is a another variable to they're not all equal.)

[youmakemehole]

I did a little more looking around on Youtube, and in the small handful of videos that involved cut testing, they all seemed to find Spyderco's 52100 to outperform supersteels such as CPM154 and S90V. If you guys pay attention to the sprint runs SPyderco offers in CF, they tend to be for the very best performing steels they have available, and exceptions to this rule are rare – examples include S90V, M4, CPM154/S90V, ZDP, and 4V. I'd imagine the performance SPyderco was able to extract from 52100 warrants it a spot on that list as well? Appreciate all of you who have shared their thoughts on this steel - is there anyone else that has experiences supporting this theory?

https://youtu.be/HxCketY7gRs


https://youtu.be/7g_CxyxoWAs

[Deadboxhero]

I did a little more looking around on Youtube, and in the small handful of videos that involved cut testing, they all seemed to find Spyderco's 52100 to outperform supersteels such as CPM154 and S90V. If you guys pay attention to the sprint runs SPyderco offers in CF, they tend to be for the very best performing steels they have available, and exceptions to this rule are rare – examples include S90V, M4, CPM154/S90V, ZDP, and 4V. I'd imagine the performance SPyderco was able to extract from 52100 warrants it a spot on that list as well? Appreciate all of you who have shared their thoughts on this steel - is there anyone else that has experiences supporting this theory?

https://youtu.be/HxCketY7gRs


https://youtu.be/7g_CxyxoWAs

No, it's still just a simple carbon steel with a bit of chromium carbides in it. I think you found your favorite steel but it's nothing ground breaking in the grand scheme of things.

I use 52100 in my knives. It has it's place but it isn't going to blow all the other steels out of the water. However some people will like it better in their experience cause it takes a nice edge and is easy to sharpen with good stability.

If you like 52100 you'll love AEB-L

[blues]

52100 also became somewhat romanticized because it was a favorite steel of some of the ABS master smiths like Ed Fowler, P.J. Tomes, Rick Dunkerley, Ray Kirk, Dan Farr et al who produced some great knives, fixed and folder, suitable for EDC or the outdoors.

I know that's how I first became enamored of it.

[JackofAllBlades]

Still mind blowing how 52100 preformed in SSS test.

Spyderco's 52100 out performed s30v, m390, s35vn, CTS XHP, 20cv, AND S90V when it comes to keeping a RAZOR edge.(shaving arm hair)
S90V was the only steel to beat it in a working edge. (cutting paper)
(take note this is only on cardboard. S90V naturally becomes courser and easier to cut cardboard with. Result might have been different on wood which requires a polished edge.)

I believe heat treat is 75% the determining factor when it comes to performance.
Better HT, Better Performance. Steel is not everything,
Steel composition to me has more influence on WHAT YOU SHOULD BE CUTTING with that steel.
If you want stainlessness and want to use it for cardboard/abrasives, course edge, = CTS-XHP
If you use it to whittle wood and for outdoor work and want toughness, polished edge, = 52100

52100 will still hang if you want to use it on cardboard abrasives though...but I'm Not sure about XHP could switch roles as easily..

*Side rant* Judging on how Cruwear blew EVERYTHING (even M4) out of the water In terms of keeping razor sharpness against cardboard, Doesn't make sense that Cruwear ISNT a production model yet... :confused: Its the best well balanced Spyderco steel PERIOD. CMON SAL! :mad:

[youmakemehole]

Dont get me wrong guys, I am no more obsessed with 52100 than I am with any other great steel. I’m just trying to give this little underdog (and ultimately Spyderco) they credit it deserves given the difference in what the general public deems to be its cutting performance and its actual cutting performance, which from what I have personally experienced is a bit significant. Unless you have tried Spyderco’s 52100 itd be difficult to make any judgment on its performance since it is so highly dependant on how they have treated it.

[Deadboxhero]

I'm happy they made it available in a folder.

The peel ply carbon fiber gives it a much lighter feel then I expected.

People that mirror polish their edges might like the 52100 more then other steels.

Personally Spyderco has given me K390 fever.

Dont get me wrong guys, I am no more obsessed with 52100 than I am with any other great steel. I’m just trying to give this little underdog (and ultimately Spyderco) they credit it deserves given the difference in what the general public deems to be its cutting performance and its actual cutting performance, which from what I have personally experienced is a bit significant. Unless you have tried Spyderco’s 52100 itd be difficult to make any judgment on its performance since it is so highly dependant on how they have treated it.

[David R]

Still mind blowing how 52100 preformed in SSS test.

Spyderco's 52100 out performed s30v, m390, s35vn, CTS XHP, 20cv, AND S90V when it comes to keeping a RAZOR edge.(shaving arm hair)
S90V was the only steel to beat it in a working edge. (cutting paper)
(take note this is only on cardboard. S90V naturally becomes courser and easier to cut cardboard with. Result might have been different on wood which requires a polished edge.)

Not familiar with this. Can you point me to these tests?

Personally Spyderco has given me K390 fever.

Yep. Would like to see more K390. I'll take more PSF27 too.

[Pelagic]

Looks like some people are talking about the steels themselves, and some are talking about Spyderco's offerings of said steels.

[Woodpuppy]

Personally Spyderco has given me K390 fever.

So you like K390 better than Maxamet? 15V (in future)?

[Deadboxhero]

Personally Spyderco has given me K390 fever.

So you like K390 better than Maxamet? 15V (in future)?

They do different things, context is everything. I'm still waiting for the Maxamet to comeback to the Paras. The 15v will do things better than the k390 and vice versa.