Spyderco Forums

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:31 pm

sal wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:15 am

Hi Shawn,

Spyderco was the first production company to use Crucibles particle metallurgy in production knives. I personally went to Crucible with crew to begin the project in the mid 90's. We began with S60V while is was still being called CPM 440V. We had no problem getting it hard, but in a hi 50's to low 60's it was so brittle that it would crack if dropped on concrete. We continue to experiment until we reached the conclusion that 55/56 worked best for the steel in knife blades. In the end, we dropped it. It was too hard to sharpen for customers, though edge retention was good. I don't think we would use it again.

sal

Now please Sal don't throw out the "baby with the bathwater" because I still maintain that 440V is still one of the better blade steels you guys used for Spyderedged blades. I will admit for as hard as it was to sharpen>> to be truthful it was a "MONSTER" to sharpen in plain edge :eek: But I still use two of the older full Spyderedged models in 440V and it's truly one of my all time favorite blade steels for Spyderedges IMO.

Being that most of it only tested out at 55 to 56 on the Rockwell scale probably explains to me why it was such a good blade steel for Spyderedges. I hope to get my hands on one of the older 440V, full SE Military models again some day. That was a true beast of a serrated blade in 440V.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you all ever get anymore 440V you can at least use it in Spyderedged blades. I rank it along with ATS-55 and AUS-8 as being my top 3 favorite blade steels for Spyderedges.

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:59 am

I still maintain that 440V/S60V is still in my top 5 favorite blade steels for Spyderedges. I sort of liked it in plain edge but it really perfoms well in Spyderedge and I still have some 440V SE blades that I plan on keeping. Especially my 440V, SE NATIVE model which to me is truly a pitbull of a knife.

I would very much welcome any Sprint Run of 440V in Spyderedge. Because that's where that steel really stands out in my humble opinion. And believe me I've had a ton of experience using all the different steels in SE. Now I will say that 440V is truly a "monster" to sharpen and you will more than likely use a lot of curse words :rolleyes: while sharpening a 440V blade. But with Spyderedges you won't have to do it very often.

I still keep my radar out for the GOLDEN made SE models with that steel.

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:05 am

JD Spydo wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:59 am

I still maintain that 440V/S60V is still in my top 5 favorite blade steels for Spyderedges. I sort of liked it in plain edge but it really perfoms well in Spyderedge and I still have some 440V SE blades that I plan on keeping. Especially my 440V, SE NATIVE model which to me is truly a pitbull of a knife.

I would very much welcome any Sprint Run of 440V in Spyderedge. Because that's where that steel really stands out in my humble opinion. And believe me I've had a ton of experience using all the different steels in SE. Now I will say that 440V is truly a "monster" to sharpen and you will more than likely use a lot of curse words :rolleyes: while sharpening a 440V blade. But with Spyderedges you won't have to do it very often.

I still keep my radar out for the GOLDEN made SE models with that steel.

I'd be interested in trying some of the older 440v spyder stuff, I keep hearing it's hard to sharpen. This s60v was a breeze, especially compared to what's on the market today. Even from Spyderco

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:55 am

: : :
A shame since my curiosity is burning a hole through me.

I'll update this thread with testing soon.

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:59 pm

I feel s60v is definitely worth revisiting.

As it offers a nice range in performance for people wanting more cutting performance then s30v but a little more versatility then s90v.

Much like an "American Elmax"

I feel the problems the steel was having in the early 2000's were due to the growing pains of the industry and that the "kinks" have been worked out.

This is CPM s60v at 60-61 HRC

2050f Austenizing temp. protected in foil from decarbing and soaked for 20min, plate quenched. No Cryo and a few tempers at 350f for two hours each temeper.

The steel was still able to reach 60-61 HRC tempered with no cryo and no oil quenching.




This is significant because in the past there were issues with hardenbility.

I've talked to the sales representative at Crucible and he has told me there have been minor adjustments to the melt and that there steel making process has been very much improved after the company reorganized about a decade ago.

Niagara Specialty Metals has also been improving there rolling and annealing process alot since the early 2000's.

The steel is also very much available as well unlike Elmax, also less cost and domestic.



I ground the blade with a rough grind and Sharpened it to 17 dpson a 1500 grit CBN waterstone.

The shoulder of the bevel was 0.010" behind the edge (bte)

The edge came up alot like Elmax does at this hardness as well.



I then took the sharp thin edge and abusively cut the edge into a .25 brass rod and twisted the cut out.

At 0.010" bte and 60-61 HRC and cutting with a heavy hand I could even see some flexing behind the edge. With enough cutting the Apex definitely took some chipping which is expected with a high alloy, high chromium, high Carbon PM steel at this geometry.

Definitely not the extreme brittle behavior described in the past.



I went back to the 1500 grit CBN stone (which behaves more like a 2k grit/7 micron stone) and was able to see the damage better.




Rather then waste time I just jumped down to a 400 grit CBN waterstone and used a few rapid back and forth passes with moderate pressure to remove the damage in seconds rather the spending a few minutes at 1500 grit.







I then jumped back to the 1500 grit CBN to add more push cutting ability to the edge and polish the apex more.




After a 1um diamond stroping the edge was where I liked, a nice blend of polish and tooth with the ability to tree top and crop free hanging hair, yet still have a nice bite to the edge.








I feel this steel should be revisited. The times have changed.

ferider wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:59 pm

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:55 am

: : :
A shame since my curiosity is burning a hole through me.

I'll update this thread with testing soon.

From an older photo, my one and only 440V knife, BBB. To be honest, when I use it, I forget about the steel, handling this thing is quite unique :)

On the stone, it feels kind of in between a good D2 (different but US make) and Spyderco S30V, if that makes sense

Sjucaveman wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:57 am

Deadboxhero wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:59 pm

I feel s60v is definitely worth revisiting.

As it offers a nice range in performance for people wanting more cutting performance then s30v but a little more versatility then s90v.

Much like an "American Elmax"

I feel the problems the steel was having in the early 2000's were due to the growing pains of the industry and that the "kinks" have been worked out.

This is CPM s60v at 60-61 HRC

2050f Austenizing temp. protected in foil from decarbing and soaked for 20min, plate quenched. No Cryo and a few tempers at 350f for two hours each temeper.

The steel was still able to reach 60-61 HRC tempered with no cryo and no oil quenching.




This is significant because in the past there were issues with hardenbility.

I've talked to the sales representative at Crucible and he has told me there have been minor adjustments to the melt and that there steel making process has been very much improved after the company reorganized about a decade ago.

Niagara Specialty Metals has also been improving there rolling and annealing process alot since the early 2000's.

The steel is also very much available as well unlike Elmax, also less cost and domestic.



I ground the blade with a rough grind and Sharpened it to 17 dpson a 1500 grit CBN waterstone.

The shoulder of the bevel was 0.010" behind the edge (bte)

The edge came up alot like Elmax does at this hardness as well.



I then took the sharp thin edge and abusively cut the edge into a .25 brass rod and twisted the cut out.

At 0.010" bte and 60-61 HRC and cutting with a heavy hand I could even see some flexing behind the edge. With enough cutting the Apex definitely took some chipping which is expected with a high alloy, high chromium, high Carbon PM steel at this geometry.

Definitely not the extreme brittle behavior described in the past.



I went back to the 1500 grit CBN stone (which behaves more like a 2k grit/7 micron stone) and was able to see the damage better.




Rather then waste time I just jumped down to a 400 grit CBN waterstone and used a few rapid back and forth passes with moderate pressure to remove the damage in seconds rather the spending a few minutes at 1500 grit.







I then jumped back to the 1500 grit CBN to add more push cutting ability to the edge and polish the apex more.




After a 1um diamond stroping the edge was where I liked, a nice blend of polish and tooth with the ability to tree top and crop free hanging hair, yet still have a nice bite to the edge.








I feel this steel should be revisited. The times have changed.

Not to derail this thread but have you ever tried this with s110v or maxamet two of the high wear steels that aren't necessarily known for toughness? I would understand if you have no wish to do whatever damage may happen to those blades.

sal wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Nice looking knife Shawn. Let us know how it holds up.

sal

blues wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:02 pm

That looks like a great utility knife for kitchen or other tasks since the handle will allow the whole blade to be utilized.

Form follows function. :cool: