Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

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Deadboxhero
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Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:52 am

It's 2018 and it looks like the age of Nitrogen steel and nitrides is upon us.
Is there any plans for CarTech BD1N?
(Not to be confused with bd1 or bdz1)

It is a unique steel since it doesn't substitute carbon for Nitrogen, it has both.

It has a higher working Hardeness then the other Nitrogen steels.

I've been very surprised by the performance, in fact by all of the Nitrogen stainless steel. They have been very surprising in regards to performance.

Definitely changed what I thought I knew.

Seems like something is unfolding that's in it's infancy, it might be the start of more advanced Nitrogen alloys that could dominate the next decade.

I'd be excited to see If steel manufacturers and metallurgists could explore it more with more exotic nitrogen materials that could give S110V and High speed steels a run for there money yet be more affordable, tougher, stainless and easier to sharpen and grind.

Haha who knows, but it's definitely managed to capture my imagination and focus.

-Shawn
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Vivi
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Vivi » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:43 am

Sounds like an interesting steel. Maybe it would be a good choice for a mule?

I'm not sure how similar they will perform, but I've been very happy with CTSBD1. I'd like to see it used in more Spydercos.
Eagerly awaiting the Spyderhawk :)

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Surfingringo
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:39 am

Phil Wilson made me a test knife in bd1n a couple of years ago. I tested I and passed it around to Ankerson and another forum member for further testing. On the positive side, it showed excellent edge retention, holding a working edge very similarly to s90v. It also responded to sharpening much like s90v which isn’t sally a plus in my book. Cossosion resistance was also very similar to steels like s90v and cpm154. That’s pretty good but nothing remotely like Lc200n, H1 or Vanax. One of the guys that did hard cutting tests also had some light edge chipping.

All in all, it’s a good steel and if you like steels like s90v then you will brobably like bd1n. I just didn’t find that it showed any real advantages over steels we already have. I would “use” it but I wouldn’t “choose” it. Of course, I could say the same thing about s90v and that steel seems to have done just fine without my love. :rolleyes: :D

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:41 am

Vivi wrote:Sounds like an interesting steel. Maybe it would be a good choice for a mule?

I'm not sure how similar they will perform, but I've been very happy with CTSBD1. I'd like to see it used in more Spydercos.
In my opinion, it performs nothing like bd1. I don’t even think it performs like a “harder” bd1. Maybe that’s a result of the nitrogen giving it a different carbide structure? Anyway, the only similarity I found in those two steels was the name.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:10 am

Surfingringo wrote:Phil Wilson made me a test knife in bd1n a couple of years ago. I tested I and passed it around to Ankerson and another forum member for further testing. On the positive side, it showed excellent edge retention, holding a working edge very similarly to s90v. It also responded to sharpening much like s90v which isn’t sally a plus in my book. Cossosion resistance was also very similar to steels like s90v and cpm154. That’s pretty good but nothing remotely like Lc200n, H1 or Vanax. One of the guys that did hard cutting tests also had some light edge chipping.

All in all, it’s a good steel and if you like steels like s90v then you will brobably like bd1n. I just didn’t find that it showed any real advantages over steels we already have. I would “use” it but I wouldn’t “choose” it. Of course, I could say the same thing about s90v and that steel seems to have done just fine without my love. :rolleyes: :D
S90V? Interesting.
I didn't have the same experience but I didn't use the Phil Wilsons knife. I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want, s90v on folders didn't seem to keep up with the edge I like, that was more of a low grit working man's edge for cutting stuff that you throw away which is fine.
I attribute some of that to the lower HRC and it being packed with carbides

I find I like cutting quality, precision and finesse over raw endurance.
15dps, no microbevel , 2-3k finish with a 1 Micron diamond comp.

I find BD1N to hold that for me.

Just crispy

I got a piece of VANAX as a curiousity to play with but I'm worried it will be more of a working edge steel since the hardness doesn't go as high and might just be an lc200n that doesn't go blunt. Also I don't need insane corrison resistance if it costs edge performance.
But I gotta have it in my hands to form an opinion so I can't speculate too much from ignorance and it's still a very exciting and exotic material

Haha with so many variables I just have to look for what I like with how I Sharpen and use my knives, nothing is universal.

Thanks for sharing Lance,
Btw cool knife in the 2018 catelog ;)

-Shawn.
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby goonielife » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:07 am

See if this link works https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewto ... n#p1170847
Sal has said they were going to start doing the UKPK in BD1N.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:02 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Surfingringo wrote:Phil Wilson made me a test knife in bd1n a couple of years ago. I tested I and passed it around to Ankerson and another forum member for further testing. On the positive side, it showed excellent edge retention, holding a working edge very similarly to s90v. It also responded to sharpening much like s90v which isn’t sally a plus in my book. Cossosion resistance was also very similar to steels like s90v and cpm154. That’s pretty good but nothing remotely like Lc200n, H1 or Vanax. One of the guys that did hard cutting tests also had some light edge chipping.

All in all, it’s a good steel and if you like steels like s90v then you will brobably like bd1n. I just didn’t find that it showed any real advantages over steels we already have. I would “use” it but I wouldn’t “choose” it. Of course, I could say the same thing about s90v and that steel seems to have done just fine without my love. :rolleyes: :D
S90V? Interesting.
I didn't have the same experience but I didn't use the Phil Wilsons knife. I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want, s90v on folders didn't seem to keep up with the edge I like, that was more of a low grit working man's edge for cutting stuff that you throw away which is fine.
I attribute some of that to the lower HRC and it being packed with carbides

I find I like cutting quality, precision and finesse over raw endurance.
15dps, no microbevel , 2-3k finish with a 1 Micron diamond comp.

I find BD1N to hold that for me.

Just crispy

I got a piece of VANAX as a curiousity to play with but I'm worried it will be more of a working edge steel since the hardness doesn't go as high and might just be an lc200n that doesn't go blunt. Also I don't need insane corrison resistance if it costs edge performance.
But I gotta have it in my hands to form an opinion so I can't speculate too much from ignorance and it's still a very exciting and exotic material

Haha with so many variables I just have to look for what I like with how I Sharpen and use my knives, nothing is universal.

Thanks for sharing Lance,
Btw cool knife in the 2018 catelog ;)

-Shawn.
Thank you for the info Shawn! Jim and I both tested the steel endurance cutting with a coarse edge and formed similar opinions. It is interesting hearing your observations on performance with a polished edge.

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Surfingringo
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Surfingringo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:07 am

goonielife wrote:See if this link works https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewto ... n#p1170847
Sal has said they were going to start doing the UKPK in BD1N.
I could be wrong but I think it’s been mentioned that bd1n is less expensive than some steels with comparable performance so I might have to retract my statement where I said it showed no advantages over steels we already had. A cheaper price point would definitely be an advantage. If this steel can be offered in some of the more economically priced folders, I think people will be very happy with it.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Phil Wilson » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:28 am

I just made one test blade as described by Surf. There was some feedback on being a bit brittle on the edge. With a little more work on heat treat, some additional tempering experimenting to get a bit lower hardness I think that could be much improved. I subsequently made a fillet knife with it and have been using it over the last couple of seasons and no evidence of edge problems-- and on a very thin edge. The steel reminds me of MBS26 or even 440C to some extent. It is, easy to work, takes a nice finish. It has a lot of potential but is not in the same category of CPM S90V for wear resistance, IMHO. I heard about it from Ken Onion who has a commercial line of kitchen knives using this grade. I still have some samples so intend to make some more knives with it. So many good steels now..... Phil

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:42 am

I am curious about steels that combine both carbon and nitrogen. What is the reasoning behind that and what are the advantages and disadvantages?

I was looking at various steels and came across Vancron 40 Superclean.

It has the following composition:

C 1.1
N 1.8
Si 0.5
Mn 0.4
Cr 4.5
Mo 3.2
W 3.7
V 8.5

What can we speculate about the properties of this steel? Could it be a viable blade steel? The data sheet states that it has high adhesive wear resistance which I do not think is needed in a blade but I assume is should also have abrasive wear resistance as well. I guess I am mostly wondering about the combination of carbon and nitrogen.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby mattman » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:48 am

Darby
Do you have a quick definition of "adhesive" wear resistance? I've seen this term a few times before, but never really looked into it much...

TIA.
Matt

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:06 am

It is a resistance to galling. Google that term if you are not familiar with it.

Basically when two metal surfaces rub against each other under pressure the friction can cause some plastic deformation and some transferring of material from one surface to the other.

It doesn't really apply to knives if I understand it right.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bluntcut » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:19 am

S30V is a bigger brother of BD1N - http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0
Nitro-V and 14C28N are the two young brothers. 0.1%N has similar atom count as 0.3%V, so perhaps 0.05%N acts on grain pinners (refine grain) and 0.05% occupy at interstitial among martensite. These N interstitials can be atomic and or nitride forms.

Over the weekend, I hardened another vanax blade to 61.5-62rc. Edge stability (when fail, it rolls not chip) and retention(similar to s30v) are excellent however hrc is still below my 62+rc standard. My improvisation only got blade close to 62rc. In order to get over 62rc, ht need to be done in pressurized Nitrogen furnace.

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby sal » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am

We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby mattman » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:31 am

bearfacedkiller wrote:It is a resistance to galling. Google that term if you are not familiar with it.

Basically when two metal surfaces rub against each other under pressure the friction can cause some plastic deformation and some transferring of material from one surface to the other.

It doesn't really apply to knives if I understand it right.
Perfect. Thank you!
(Very familiar with effects of galling... Dealt with SS carriage bolts a bunch at a past job)

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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:36 am

sal wrote:We'll probably slowly convert from BD1 to BD1N. I would not put it on a level of S90 though.

sal
YES! Very cool, I'd love to have a piece to carry around with me at all times
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bh49 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:53 am

Deadboxhero wrote: I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want,
-Shawn.
What brand of kitchen knives with BD1N did you use?
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:35 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:I am curious about steels that combine both carbon and nitrogen. What is the reasoning behind that and what are the advantages and disadvantages?

I was looking at various steels and came across Vancron 40 Superclean.

It has the following composition:

C 1.1
N 1.8
Si 0.5
Mn 0.4
Cr 4.5
Mo 3.2
W 3.7
V 8.5

What can we speculate about the properties of this steel? Could it be a viable blade steel? The data sheet states that it has high adhesive wear resistance which I do not think is needed in a blade but I assume is should also have abrasive wear resistance as well. I guess I am mostly wondering about the combination of carbon and nitrogen.
Darby, that's a sweet looking steel.

High speed nitrogen carbon steel? Whaaa?! Crazy, looks like they are advertising it as a HSS that doesn't need a PVD coating to prevent different types of industrial machine wear, idk about that for knives, not our focus, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't make a sweet blade based off its chemistry and other attributes from the nitrogen

Looks like it can hit high hardness, dang, 65 hrc and up just like other precipitation strengthening tool steels with high Aus. temps and high tempers

the composition reminds me of a M4/k390 hybrid but with a nitrogen twist.

How does the Nitrogen effect the performance? I have no idea. I've been asking myself that about the stainless nitrogen steels and it seems that the answer for those might be some types of Chromioum nitrides and very fine carbonitrides that are causing "solid solution" hardening

I dont fully understand it, I can regurgitate information about it, but to really understand it is something else.

So what does nitrogen do in low chromium steels? Not sure, I'm steel puzzled by VANAX and what the vanadium is doing without any carbon.
So many questions, How hard is a nitride? what are the different nitrides? CrN? CrN2? CN? Fe2N? What nitrides are forming in the steel, do nitrides even compare to carbides? or is it just a finer particle l that occupies space to increase the strength with out distorting the lattice and not necessarily a harder particle. I have no idea, not having the answers doesn't bother me and the endlessness of it keeps me entertained. Just have to do it rather then speculate.


The bigger problem with Vancron 40?

Where is it? Seriously, where do you buy it?
Next, is it in the right size? Its not like you can hammer it down to knife stock in the coffee can forge haha yea they can roll it down to size but thats not an option for a regular guy, Id rather buy a new car and a trip to Mexico with that amount of cash.

Then, whats the price? looks very expensive, probably too expensive is already expensive by itself, some of these Nitrogen Stainless steels are also ghastly on the price putting them together for an exotic steel made by Uddleholm I'm clenching my teeth just thinking about it. Might be some serious coin.

Lastly, How do You heat treat it for optimal performance? Thats really where the big time and money is going to go. Trailblazing kinda stuff, then just to find out you have only 10% better results with 1000% cost haha yikes.

And then, another hot steel walks by and you forget all about Vancron 40 hahaha :p

Look Squirrel! :eek:

Where am I?

Eh, forgot, guess I'll go sharpen something. :D
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Deadboxhero
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:43 pm

bh49 wrote:
Deadboxhero wrote: I've been using it on kitchen knives and have been very impressed. Takes the polished edge I want,
-Shawn.
What brand of kitchen knives with BD1N did you use?
Yata Knives


here is a video of my sharpening experience with a demonstration of my results
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVhnzcVvq3Q

I like it.

but thats an exclusive for a specialty culinary store thats local to me.

No Online sales

you can also try a Yaxell and there "Dragon" line, those are made in Japan with BD1N but have a more western "German" design with the big belly near the tip for more plunge cuts. I much prefer the flatter "french" style of the Japanese gyutos/ chef knives
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Re: Hey Sal, any plans for CTS BD1N?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:01 pm

Yeah, I am sure it is pricey. :eek:

It also is designed for an application that doesn't seem to apply to knives. Although we use steels like HAP40 which is basically M4 that has been designed to have higher hot hardness and is designed for an application that doesn't apply to knives. I wasn't really suggesting it as a steel I want to see used but rather just trying to understand the metallurgy regarding the nitrogen carbon blend.

You make some good points and ask some good questions. :)
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p


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