Help - Need a Step by Step for Sharpening ZDP-189

[ejcr98]

I can't get my DF2 in ZDP-189 to hold an edge. I have a Sharpmaker with CBN rods and the medium (brown) and fine (white) rods. I have looked at the different threads on similar topics here in the forum to figure out how to sharpen it but I still can't get it to hold its edge.

I can get it to easily slice receipt paper but it will only do so a couple of times bedore it starts to snag, even on regular paper.

My process was to use very light pressure. Do about 50 passes per side using the CBN in the 40 degree slots. Then repeat with the brown rods and then the whites.

I read somewhere I had to work the CBN until I got a burr but then I also read that with ZDP-189 you should avoid a burr. So I am confused.

I need help and a step by step guide on how to get back super sharp but have it hold its edge.

Thanks in advance.

[Evil D]

Personally I avoid burrs like the plague especially with this steel. For me it's far more effective to monitor the edge for reflection under a light. With ZDP once you've burred the edge it's going to chip out like crazy.

I would start over by gently (and I mean gently) running the edge straight across the brown rods a couple times like you're trying to cut the rod in half. Do this just a couple times until the edge is shiny when held under a light. This is to intentionally blunt the edge and remove all that weak steel that was created by the burr (and subsequent bending back and forth). You don't want to get too carried away here or you'll be in for a long sharpening process, just a few gentle swipes until the entire edge reflects light.

Then start over with your CBN rods. What you're looking for is an edge that doesn't reflect light anymore. This is how you know it has reached an apex. Once it doesn't reflect light anymore, move on to the next stone, doing the same on up through each grit. I would recommend alternating passes as opposed to 50 passes on one side and then switching, just go left/right/left/right. Take it slow and really focus on holding the blade at 90 and focus on keeping the edge on the flat of the stone and off the corners (I don't use corners at all except for serrations). Be gentle and let the rods do the work, you'll just dig yourself into a hole by using too much pressure.

Lastly I might suggest doing all this at 30 degrees if your bevels allow it. This will allow you to still be able to micro bevel at 40 as a final step. Depending on what angle the bevels are at might make this a lot harder to do, as you'll basically be reprofiling them down to 30, but this is something you'll have to do someday anyway after enough sharpening at 40. Eventually you need to go back to 30 and thin the bevel out or it'll end up as a 40 inclusive bevel.

[tripscheck'em]

I read somewhere I had to work the CBN until I got a burr but then I also read that with ZDP-189 you should avoid a burr. So I am confused.

Don't sharpen to a burr with this steel

Use mineral oil on the ceramics, and make sure they're soaked. If the ceramics look loaded first, if you don't feel like they're cutting fast enough, get some soap water and scrub the surface with cotton or a q-tip. Scub until the q-tips stop looking black, that black stuff is the steel that's been cut off and clogged in the stone. You should probably do this to the fine stone after every sharpening, that thing loads quickly.

As of now, do the cliff stamp method of cutting off the edge. Follow the other guy's advice on the light test.
Use the CBN rods until the light stops reflecting. Then go on the medium. This is the long part. Keep doing passes until you can pop hair off your body, and I mean pop. Going to the fine ceramic too soon will ruin everything, especially on an extremely hard steel like zdp-189.

You've gotta accept the fact that zdp-189 takes substantially longer to sharpen than "lesser" steels and is equally easier to screw up on a pass. If you feel like you're going nowhere during passes, remember this and buckle down. When you get to the fine, start using the outer part of your index finger's skin to feel out the sharpness, the area opposite your thumb when palm down, you will notice it.

[ejcr98]

Personally I avoid burrs like the plague especially with this steel. For me it's far more effective to monitor the edge for reflection under a light. With ZDP once you've burred the edge it's going to chip out like crazy.

I would start over by gently (and I mean gently) running the edge straight across the brown rods a couple times like you're trying to cut the rod in half. Do this just a couple times until the edge is shiny when held under a light. This is to intentionally blunt the edge and remove all that weak steel that was created by the burr (and subsequent bending back and forth). You don't want to get too carried away here or you'll be in for a long sharpening process, just a few gentle swipes until the entire edge reflects light.

Then start over with your CBN rods. What you're looking for is an edge that doesn't reflect light anymore. This is how you know it has reached an apex. Once it doesn't reflect light anymore, move on to the next stone, doing the same on up through each grit. I would recommend alternating passes as opposed to 50 passes on one side and then switching, just go left/right/left/right. Take it slow and really focus on holding the blade at 90 and focus on keeping the edge on the flat of the stone and off the corners (I don't use corners at all except for serrations). Be gentle and let the rods do the work, you'll just dig yourself into a hole by using too much pressure.

Lastly I might suggest doing all this at 30 degrees if your bevels allow it. This will allow you to still be able to micro bevel at 40 as a final step. Depending on what angle the bevels are at might make this a lot harder to do, as you'll basically be reprofiling them down to 30, but this is something you'll have to do someday anyway after enough sharpening at 40. Eventually you need to go back to 30 and thin the bevel out or it'll end up as a 40 inclusive bevel.

Evil D, thanks for the step by step guide.

The 50 passes I did were alternating passes, so 25 passes per side, alternating left, right, left, rigth...

When you say that the edge will shine under a light, do you mean that I should flash a flashlight to it or just put the knife under a lamp?

How do I know if my bevels will allow me to donthe process at the 30 degree slots?

The edge that I had was essentially the factory edge except for a few touch ups I had done with the brown and white rods. When it started to no longer cleanly push cut paper even after the touch ups is when I tried to use the CBN and dis the process I described in the OP.

[ejcr98]

I read somewhere I had to work the CBN until I got a burr but then I also read that with ZDP-189 you should avoid a burr. So I am confused.

Don't sharpen to a burr with this steel

Use mineral oil on the ceramics, and make sure they're soaked. If the ceramics look loaded first, if you don't feel like they're cutting fast enough, get some soap water and scrub the surface with cotton or a q-tip. Scub until the q-tips stop looking black, that black stuff is the steel that's been cut off and clogged in the stone. You should probably do this to the fine stone after every sharpening, that thing loads quickly.

As of now, do the cliff stamp method of cutting off the edge. Follow the other guy's advice on the light test.
Use the CBN rods until the light stops reflecting. Then go on the medium. This is the long part. Keep doing passes until you can pop hair off your body, and I mean pop. Going to the fine ceramic too soon will ruin everything, especially on an extremely hard steel like zdp-189.

You've gotta accept the fact that zdp-189 takes substantially longer to sharpen than "lesser" steels and is equally easier to screw up on a pass. If you feel like you're going nowhere during passes, remember this and buckle down. When you get to the fine, start using the outer part of your index finger's skin to feel out the sharpness, the area opposite your thumb when palm down, you will notice it.

Thank you Tripscheck'em. I had sprayed the rods with amonia free window cleaner as I had read using Windex or its equivalent would help keep the rods from clogging too much.

I am a rookie at sharpening but I can get VG-10 and H-1 paper-pushing sharp rather easily. I figured ZDP would take some more effort, hence the 25 passes per side per rod and the use of the CBN instead of my usual ten passes per side per rod with only the browns and the whites that I use for VG-10 and H-1 when needed (which is not frequent).

[yablanowitz]

In my opinion, "work up a burr" is the worst sharpening advice ever given. Especially with ZDP.

A point source light (single bulb lamp, single bulb overhead light, flashlight, etc.) makes it easier to check for shine. As for "if your bevels allow it", color the entire edge bevel with a marker then make a couple of passes on each side. If the marker is cleaned off at the top of the bevel, you'll have to cut a whole new bevel to match the angle of the rods. If it is cleaned off along the bottom of the bevel, you will only be removing steel at the edge. If it is cleared off all the way across the bevel, then your angle matches.

Unless you are using your Dragonfly the way I use a Military, I'd sharpen it at 30 degrees and not even bother with a microbevel. For light to medium use, ZDP csn handle it.

[DrawBackwards]

Personally I avoid burrs like the plague especially with this steel. For me it's far more effective to monitor the edge for reflection under a light. With ZDP once you've burred the edge it's going to chip out like crazy.

I would start over by gently (and I mean gently) running the edge straight across the brown rods a couple times like you're trying to cut the rod in half. Do this just a couple times until the edge is shiny when held under a light. This is to intentionally blunt the edge and remove all that weak steel that was created by the burr (and subsequent bending back and forth). You don't want to get too carried away here or you'll be in for a long sharpening process, just a few gentle swipes until the entire edge reflects light.

Then start over with your CBN rods. What you're looking for is an edge that doesn't reflect light anymore. This is how you know it has reached an apex. Once it doesn't reflect light anymore, move on to the next stone, doing the same on up through each grit. I would recommend alternating passes as opposed to 50 passes on one side and then switching, just go left/right/left/right. Take it slow and really focus on holding the blade at 90 and focus on keeping the edge on the flat of the stone and off the corners (I don't use corners at all except for serrations). Be gentle and let the rods do the work, you'll just dig yourself into a hole by using too much pressure.

Lastly I might suggest doing all this at 30 degrees if your bevels allow it. This will allow you to still be able to micro bevel at 40 as a final step. Depending on what angle the bevels are at might make this a lot harder to do, as you'll basically be reprofiling them down to 30, but this is something you'll have to do someday anyway after enough sharpening at 40. Eventually you need to go back to 30 and thin the bevel out or it'll end up as a 40 inclusive bevel.

Thanks for this. You always put a lot of thought into your posts, and I've found them very helpful.

Cheers,
-Ward

[ejcr98]

In my opinion, "work up a burr" is the worst sharpening advice ever given. Especially with ZDP.

A point source light (single bulb lamp, single bulb overhead light, flashlight, etc.) makes it easier to check for shine. As for "if your bevels allow it", color the entire edge bevel with a marker then make a couple of passes on each side. If the marker is cleaned off at the top of the bevel, you'll have to cut a whole new bevel to match the angle of the rods. If it is cleaned off along the bottom of the bevel, you will only be removing steel at the edge. If it is cleared off all the way across the bevel, then your angle matches.

Unless you are using your Dragonfly the way I use a Military, I'd sharpen it at 30 degrees and not even bother with a microbevel. For light to medium use, ZDP csn handle it.

Yablanowitz,

Thanks for the info.

I don't think I managed to work up a burr because I don't think I saw or felt one but I had not tried the light-reflection trick, so who knows, maybe I did and didn't notice it.

I'll sure try not to work a burr and will follow all of the advice I have been given in this thread. I'll probably try to sharpen the knife over the weekend, so I'll post how it went.

I also just got a 10x watcher's loupe to look at the dege although I am not even sure what I should be looking at other than the two sides of the esge should meet at the top or apex.

[Evil D]

Yep, what Yab said. When you create a burr on a steel like this it essentially breaks off, and even as you work through grits the very apex of the edge is still a jagged mess from the burr breaking off. Another tip is to buy yourself a decent 10x or better loupe. Being able to see what the edge looks like is a great training tool.

Thanks for this. You always put a lot of thought into your posts, and I've found them very helpful.

Cheers,
-Ward

Thanks Ward. I can only take credit for passing along what I've learned, 99% of it I learned from other forum members. Read every thread, pay attention to every opinion, and you're sure to find what works for you.

[Bloke]

D's a typing machine!

I was a work yesterday but managed to put some pointers together for you. I hit preview and saw D's post, read it and had a chuckle because I couldn't see the point in a near duplicate post. :rolleyes:

So I have nothing to add that the boys haven't covered other than to perhaps say don't listen to the naysayers in regard to ZDP-189, use plenty of Windex and if you apply it with a 1/2" artists brush you'll clean your stones as you sharpen.

I've also found depending on how wet or dry your hands are sometimes it's hard to feel or see a bur even with a loupe but if it's there it'll definitely catch on a piece of pantyhose material or a simple tissue run along the edge.

Good luck and let us know how it pans out. :)

[Evil D]

Nice tip with the pantyhose....I won't ask why you have it though

Another thing you can do is drag the edge along your fingernail as you would if you were stropping. An edge that doesn't have a burr should just slide along, but a burr will scrape your nail.

[Bloke]

Nice tip with the pantyhose....I won't ask why you have it though

Another thing you can do is drag the edge along your fingernail as you would if you were stropping. An edge that doesn't have a burr should just slide along, but a burr will scrape your nail.

They're just easier than stockings, suspender belts and garters is all D and no way I'm running a ragged edge over my fingernails ... it would scratch my nail polish for sure! :eek:

Ladders in cheap pantyhose is bad enough! :p

[yablanowitz]

I guess I'm old and blind. I started with a 16X loupe, went to a 20X and 30X and ended up with a 100X lighted pocket microscope. I still end up checking it by feel.

[Tucson Tom]

Sharpening! The final frontier.
I have read this post with great interest. Still a rookie in the sharpening game.
I have found using the sharpie and magnifier a huge aid to seeing what is going on. I am lucky to have a good stereo microscope handy, so I can look at things from 7x to 64x at the spin of a knob. But 10x is almost always entirely adequate and anybody can (and should) get their hands on a good hand lens. I recommend a Belomo 10x triplet you can get for around $30 on Amazon. Money well spent (I have several because I am always misplacing them).

I can't imagine sharpening without some ability to study the edge.

[Bloke]

I recommend a Belomo 10x triplet you can get for around $30.

[twinboysdad]

Just buy another one...

[GarageBoy]

Dumb questions, if you don't raise a burr, when do you stop, and how do you know when to move on to the next grit?

[Bloke]

Dumb questions, if you don't raise a burr, when do you stop, and how do you know when to move on to the next grit?

It’s not a dumb question!

It’s impossible not to form a burr once you actually start to cut the unsupported edge at the apex.

The idea is to keep the dreaded burr to an absolute minimum and once you do detect any sign of it go to the other side of the blade and grind it off as gently as you can. You won’t grind all of it off no matter what you do and some of it will inevitably end up pushed to the other side of the blade and so it goes backwards and forwards till it breaks off and leaves you with a ragged ‘blunt’ edge. The smaller the burr the less ragged and less ‘blunt’ the edge. I’m not sure how better to explain it.

So what to do? Use a permanent marker on the bevel so that you at least have some idea of what’s happening and where it’s happening. Don’t keep grinding one side of the blade until you have a burr the entire length. Alternate regularly and use sharp clean abrasives with absolute minimal pressure.

I don’t know if this helps you or even if I’ve answered your question but with practice we tend to develop a feel for what is actually happening particularly once we understand how it all works. At least that’s what I reckon. :rolleyes:

[ejcr98]

Ok, so I had not been able to try the fix suggested, but I took an hour last night and started the process.

I gently slid the blade over the brown rod twice as if I was trying to cut it. This made the blade extremely dull. Then I colored the bevel with a Sharpie and started to work the blade with the CBN rods at the 30 degree slots of the SM. I did alternating passes until the edge seemes not to reflect light anymore (although I am not sure I know how to determine this). The blade was still very dull and would not cut receipt paper (I did not have regular paper handy). But, since I didn't see light reflecting of the very edge or apex, I moved on to the brown rods. I did about 25 passes per side alternating strokes per side when I had to stop to do other chores. However, when I stopped, the blade would still not cut receipt paper, let alone push cut it.

The whole thing took me about 45 minutes to an hour.

So I am wondering if I should go back to the CBN rods or just keep going with the brown rods. I am inclined to continue with the brown rods as recommended in the thread. I know that I was warned that this part would be the long part and that I should just press on however frustrating.

Thoughts and feedback appreciated.

[Sharp Guy]

ejcr98, do you have a magnifying glass or loupe to look closely at the edge? Was all the sharpie gone from the bevel all the way to the apex?