Chinook II compared to III---Interview with James Keating

[A.P.F.]

Brian missed his calling.

[redback]

Trolltide (sung to tune of Rawhide) - lyrics by zenheretic TRollin', Trollin', Trollin'

Oops, I'm sorry, ***, didn't know it was compulsory to join the ***.

[KaliGman]

Oops, I'm sorry, fanboy, didn't know it was compulsory to join the circle-jerk.

Wrong forum, pal. Over here it is usually pretty civil and a "family forum," so no inappropriate language or troll like behavior is condoned. By saying that the Bowie, one of the premier combat knives ever designed (and with blades of similar shape used in combat by a lot of different societies prior to the Bowie "invention" in the legendary American West) is no good for combat, you didn't exactly establish your bona fides as a knowledgeable knife aficionado/self defense oriented knife user.

Yeah, Michael got a little snippy--he does that when he is off his meds :D --but he is a pretty decent guy with a bit of training under his belt in regard to knife combatives. As for Keating, he is a skilled man with the blade and in hand to hand. Am I a great fan of all his techniques? No. Do I buy into not being able to find a respected American knife instructor who has not learned from him? No, as I have known several who never studied with Keating.

As for the claw thing, many of the fixed blade fighting Bowies have a sharpened swedge, so in the "backcut" or totsada motion, the "inner edge" or swedge would cut in a method similar to a karambit (a knife based on a tiger claw). The Chinook, of course, does not have this feature, but it doesn't need it to cut like a claw. When the wrist is turned in this maneuver, the motion is like a cat's strike or quick strike with a rounded motion on the end. With training, it is just as easy to do a push cut by hitting with the edge of the blade as it is to sink in the tip or strike with the swedge.

[redback]

Be that as it may...

• the Chinook shape blade is not as easy to sharpen as other shapes, newbies take note
• the swept blade design with prominent belly excels at tasks like skinning, scraping, and butchering of game animals, and that was the original use for such shaped blades

Now the original Bowie knife is another matter completely. It was sharpened on both sides, unlike the Chinook. So it's a whole different animal.

The man-killing secrets held by the Bowie blade and so ably proven by Bowie himself, was not only in the shape of the blade but in the manner in which it was to be used. The blade was designed to obtain maximum effect from a specific technique. Technique was not built around the blade. Every feature in design that the Bowie possessed had an important and indispensable part to play. in making it the deadliest blade in the world, it was necessary to be skilled in technique, making use of all its features. The fact that it became known as "the knife that cuts two ways" was a result of one of the many facets of his technique. Any blade sharp on both sides will cut two ways if slashed forward and backward. Bowie's knife could cut both ways with one stroke - provided you knew how to do it.

From http://www.gutterfighting.org/StyersBowie.html

[redback]

In fact, the Chinook is nothing like a real Bowie knife, especially because if the Chinook's diminutive size. The Chinook is more like a miniature homage to the Bowie than a real Bowie. Read about the real Bowie knife here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

The Bowie-style knife below, obtainable still, has a sharpened upper swedge like Jim's original Bowie knife



ONTARIO Marine Bayonet Khaki Brown Handle And Sheath 8" Blade

[KaliGman]

Wikipedia for knife expertise and blade combat? WOW. Good luck with that one.

Do some further research and you will discover that no one is exactly sure what the actual "duel" Bowie knife looked like. Some experts think it had more in common with a butcher knife than a dagger or modern version of the Bowie. Now, as to what came to be known in the 19th century as a Bowie, as provided by several English and American cutlery firms, well--in general it had a clip point, sometimes had a sharpened swedge, and was used in a lot of combat. Curved edges in combat---katana, Chinese dao, Filipino barong (leaf shape with a curved blade), and so on--without even getting into the many historical clip points out there. Know your history and/or know your blade combat and maybe someone will take you seriously instead of labeling you a troll.

As for size of a knife, well, sometimes a large blade is nice. In reality, though, it is always more about skill than it is about the size of the knife. Some people have even been known to be pretty decent with the, by your standards, diminutive Spyderco Kris and almost too tiny to be seen Lava:

http://www.albokalisilat.org/folding3.html
http://www.albokalisilat.org/folding2.html

Of course, I have also been known to use a karambit or two in my time (see--now you see me when I was off my meds and playing with live blades on film:eek :)

http://www.albokalisilat.org/more_karambit.html
http://www.albokalisilat.org/advanced.html

Brian, I should have just hummed the troll song and went about my business. I'll know better next time--that Zen is a smart man (just don't tell him I said so.)

Done with this thread for good I think.

Out

[redback]

Wikipedia for knife expertise and blade combat? WOW. Good luck with that one.

Wikipedia is written by millions of people, and if you find any errors on the Bowie knife page, go right ahead and correct it

Do some further research and you will discover that no one is exactly sure what the actual "duel" Bowie knife looked like. Some experts think it had more in common with a butcher knife than a dagger or modern version of the Bowie. Now, as to what came to be known in the 19th century as a Bowie, as provided by several English and American cutlery firms, well--in general it had a clip point, sometimes had a sharpened swedge, and was used in a lot of combat.

Apparently, from what I've read, Jim Bowie's famous knife (as opposed to those used by other members of his family) had dual sharpened edges, making the talon shape, somewhat reminiscent of a Karambit, a workable fighting knife.

Curved edges in combat---katana, Chinese dao, Filipino barong (leaf shape with a curved blade), and so on--without even getting into the many historical clip points out there. Know your history and/or know your blade combat and maybe someone will take you seriously instead of labeling you a troll.

The Katana, Dao and Barong are sword-dimension weapons, so they are not comparable to a tiny 3.75" blade as on the Chinook. Your comparison is absurd.

As for the videos ***, thanks for the laughs.

[tonydahose]

Always remember, "Ignore" is your friend. In any group of about four or more, there will always be someone that you just can't stand. That doen't mean they are without merit, only that their personality doesn't mesh with your own.

the quote was taken from another thread but i thought it could be useful here the way this one is going. just as an fyi click on the person's avatar you would like to ignore, then on the right side of the screen that pops up click add XXX to your ignore list. now breathe a sigh of relief. repeat as necessary.

[stonyman]

I do not think no one is disputing the differences between the folding Chinook and a full size Bowie blade........whatever the original maybe. Hey bro there is a lot of combat practitioners on this board and some who are in the trenches with the tools acquired.

The Chinook could be a sharpened spoon and be effective in skilled hands. The folder is designed to make the best of working within the diminitive envelope of a folder. Spyderco does a good job of it. If you are unsatisfied with the Chinook, by all means carry a full-size bowie and give Mike Sastre a call for a nice sheath. I sure will not be mad at you, but if you are restricted to a folder, you can do quite worse than a Chinook. Take care all and God Bless!

[D-Roc]

I am satisfied with the Chinook...

[Detdaddy]

Thanks for the post Zac. I don't have a Chinook yet, but will be getting one very soon. It's always neat to hear from those who design these knives.

Also, thanks Tony. I feel better now. :D

[zenheretic]

Hey, opinions differ. Judge my arguments on the merits. Looking at Mr Keating's website, he doesn't seem to be a genius.

Ok let us judge you on your arguments on their merits, BTW -5 demerits for judging someone based on their website; I doubt websites are indicative of knowledge or intelligence.

I don't get this animal claw stuff. Animal claws are meant for grabbing, and tearing, not cutting. And in those few instances when they do cut, the inner edge is sharp or has serrations, not the outer edge as in the Chinook.

So the Chinook is not like an animal claw except in superficial ways.

Secondly, the Chinook is the sort of shape that is not that easy to sharpen. Curved blades are not fun to sharpen (I know, I have one or two). That shape of blade is good for things like skinning an animal (Bowie knives were used a lot for that). Combat knife? No.

Summary.
Animal claws are not for cutting.
You find curved blades hard to sharpen.
You believe curved blades are for skinning and attribute this knife along with bowies as skinners and not combat knives.

Oops, I'm sorry, ***, didn't know it was compulsory to join the ***.

-45 demerits, Rude is not a merit.

Be that as it may...

• the Chinook shape blade is not as easy to sharpen as other shapes, newbies take note
• the swept blade design with prominent belly excels at tasks like skinning, scraping, and butchering of game animals, and that was the original use for such shaped blades

Now the original Bowie knife is another matter completely. It was sharpened on both sides, unlike the Chinook. So it's a whole different animal.

Summary
You again find this blade hard to sharpen.
You think it is used only to skin animals.
You suddenly find the bowie to not be a Chinook. -5 demerits for repeating yourself for no gain other than increasing bandwidth. -5 demerits for bending your tune.

In fact, the Chinook is nothing like a real Bowie knife, especially because if the Chinook's diminutive size. The Chinook is more like a miniature homage to the Bowie than a real Bowie. Read about the real Bowie knife here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

The Bowie-style knife below, obtainable still, has a sharpened upper swedge like Jim's original Bowie knife

Summary
You still can't sharpen this knife, which has nothing to do with if it is a fighting knife or not. -10 Demerits for repeating yourself again for no further gain.
Now the Chinook is nothing like the Bowie; completing the 180 degree turn around from your first statement. -10 demerits, illogical.
The Judge finds your arguments wanting and lacking merit.

[redback]

This thread seems to have attracted the crazies, so I'm out of it.

[gandalfe]

This thread seems to have attracted the crazies, so I'm out of it.

It's not completely crazy, to like this big folder.If I were in a SD situation, my Chinook would be the knife I would like to have in hand.It's the beefiest, Bowie like, badboy of a Spydy, that I know of, and that is saying a lot

[Billy]

Hey, I love my Chinook and it's riding in my BRP right now and did an admirable job of slicing up a delicious loaf of french bread yesterday. :p

As for Redback's argument that it's hard to sharpen, I TOTALLY and HEARTILY disagree! Mine is only slightly more difficult to sharpen than my Millies or Enduras (probably about the easiest knives to get a razor edge on) and only in the fact the it requires a bit more wrist motion at the end of the pass on the Sharpmaker.

[markg]

When people complain that a certain knife is hard to sharpen, I realize they are using sharpening technology that developed in the stone age. If you use exotic steels, exotic curves or angles... Get a MODERN sharpening sytem. Recurves, etc are no problem for things like the Sharpmakers...

Let me get this straight... A "bowie" style knife is only good for things like hunting, and cleaning game... Things like severing flesh, removing skin, et al... From animals... And THAT somehow makes the knife a bad (and excuse the gross factor here) fighting knife for what... for severing/removing/or destroying human flesh? Hummmm

IMHO...two of the most effective fighting knives I have played with are the Chinook and the Emerson Persian. Forward cutting edge is pronounced (great if you favor cutting styles) and the tip is higher than the spine, which actually makes them good for poking/stabbing things. (The point cuts a path for the unsharpened spine).

I am currently writing a dissertation, and in the class in preparation for the work... the professor said something I will never forget...

"Human perceptions are normally wrong... That is why we do research." That is very true...

Actually get some meat and start poking and sticking it with a Chinook. You would think on the surface that the Yojimbo is silly knife... It is actually a high performer in such tests. And in the end... We are nothing more than a walking pile of meat...

[Michael Cook]

And in the end... We are nothing more than a walking pile of meat...

:spyder: Haha, gross. :spyder:

[Agent Starling]

This thread seems to have attracted the crazies, so I'm out of it.

and not a moment too soon!

[redback]

Saw this thread still humming along, so I have to interject yet again to correct some errors and assumptions:

When people complain that a certain knife is hard to sharpen, I realize they are using sharpening technology that developed in the stone age. If you use exotic steels, exotic curves or angles... Get a MODERN sharpening sytem. Recurves, etc are no problem for things like the Sharpmakers...

Very few knife buyers own a sharpmaker, so the caveat about curved blades still applies. BTW, I have a sharpmaker and still find curved blades tricky to sharpen, go figure.

Let me get this straight... A "bowie" style knife is only good for things like hunting, and cleaning game... Things like severing flesh, removing skin, et al... From animals... And THAT somehow makes the knife a bad (and excuse the gross factor here) fighting knife for what... for severing/removing/or destroying human flesh? Hummmm

No, to be exact, any curved blade is excellent for separating skin from flesh, which is why professional skinning and butchering knives have this shape. This is the special strength of a curved blade. It is a finicky task that is quite difficult with other blade shapes. Obviously you have not skinned any game. Try this video: Skinning a Deer with Bob






But this does not mean it is good for combat. Despite all the intensely funny twaddle that is talked about combat knives on the Internet by self-styled "experts", the best combat knife is still the type used in the world wars: decent sized, double-edged straight blade. There is a reason why knives like that are banned in many countries, including mine (Australia). Think!

[zenheretic]

This thread seems to have attracted the crazies, so I'm out of it.

Saw this thread still humming along, so I have to interject yet again to correct some errors and assumptions:

Classic textbook behaviour.

Forum my advice would be to