Hello, sir.
What can I say? I don’t live in Iraq...I guess I was trying to suggest that there are real people living there...I’m not strictly a “peacenik” either, I guess...I study martial arts, I carry several Spydies, and if I had no other choice, I would use both to defend myself. BUT:
1: If I had to cut someone, I’d make **** sure NOT to cut the kid standing beside him. We all know the “Shock And Awe” that can be generated by the swift deployment of a Matriarch or similar tool...many of us take care not to alarm the “sheeple”. But who among us would try to justify the “accidental” cutting of an innocent bystander as “collateral damage”?
2: I would not cut someone merely because I “thought” they were going to attack me one day. If I did, I’d have cut everyone by now, including the kid standing beside him. (Can you imagine someone citing the “George Bush precedent” as a defence at their murder trial? "Well, I THOUGHT he was going to attack me..."<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Whatever considerable problems the world had with Hussein, it’s quite unlikely that Ali Abbas or his family were a part of all that. Although now, I would not be surprised if the lad decided to become a terrorist...I would not blame him one bit. (He could stuff his prosthetic arms full of plastique and Spydies.) Ali Abbas and his entire family were not the only victims of what is advertised as a “War On Terrorism”, or “Operation: Iraqi freedom”. They are 1 example among many thousands.
I agree with you so much that Saddam ought to have been removed, that I feel he should have been removed at the end of the 1st Gulf war, many years ago, thereby halving the “collateral damage” that you believe is necessary to make the world “safe”. The way I see it, though, the Iraqi people have simply traded 1 murderer/maimer for another...and George Bush also beats Bin Laden hands down for the murder of innocents, which, I guess, is only my personal definition of “terrorism”.
It’s true we are getting only tidbits of news on Iraq...It’s mostly propaganda. I do not understand how people can look at a boy whose entire family they have killed, whose arms they have blown off, shrug their shoulders, and say he is now “free”.
You are both wrong, and extremely insensitive, if you believe that women in Iraq, AND the U.S. do not fear being beaten in public.
Will the Electoral College have anything to do with the “choosing” of Iraq’s next leader?
The Iraq war will indeed cost the American taxpayer big-time...Ironic that a “Tax-cuttin’” man like Bush would choose to embark on such an expensive endeavour...but, if you break it, you buy it. If you think that bombs just HAD to be dropped on Ali Abbas’ house, and all the other houses of the Iraqi citizenry during the “Shock And Awe” campaign, then I should think you’d pay for the clean up as well. While there’s probably no such thing as a “clean” war, there are certainly cleaner, less destructive, “easier to aim” things to use than bombs. I have seen many “Operation: Iraqi freedom” Spyderco Natives on ebay...too bad more of these knives didn’t make it to the troops. I remember the day the post-war American casualties surpassed those of the war itself...now that has been done many times over. If you want to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people, you cannot do it by blowing up their homes.
I know that what YOU (as an American) want to do in Iraq is free the people and all that Jazz. George Bush knows that’s what you want too, so that’s what he told you he was doing. (I don’t know, maybe he even believed it.) And, maybe war is/was the only way to do that. As a martial-artist (“warrior”<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> I study not only HOW to do such things, but how NOT to. Aiming bombs at innocent people falls into the latter category...Ironic that Saddam himself escaped those bombs, wasn’t it?
Spyderco rocks! Take care -peacenik
Way OT Spain
Hi All,
I have just finished a very interesting book called "Continuing The Storm", by Avigdor Haselkorn. Not only does he make the point that Iraq has put up such a smokescreen surrounding their WMD that no one really knows or could know for sure, but he suggests that Gulf War 1 was ended because of WMD. It appears that Iraq fired a missile at Israel that gave every indication that it could have been armed with bio-agents. Hence he suggests that the war was ended without the removal of Saddam to stop a holocaust. If that was the case, then goodbye and good riddance now.
Speaking of Saddam, the news has been very quiet about him. Does anyone know anything about how his interrogation is going?
Regards, Neophyte.
I have just finished a very interesting book called "Continuing The Storm", by Avigdor Haselkorn. Not only does he make the point that Iraq has put up such a smokescreen surrounding their WMD that no one really knows or could know for sure, but he suggests that Gulf War 1 was ended because of WMD. It appears that Iraq fired a missile at Israel that gave every indication that it could have been armed with bio-agents. Hence he suggests that the war was ended without the removal of Saddam to stop a holocaust. If that was the case, then goodbye and good riddance now.
Speaking of Saddam, the news has been very quiet about him. Does anyone know anything about how his interrogation is going?
Regards, Neophyte.
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sc_rebel1957
- Member
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: SOUTH CAROLINA USA
- Contact:
And I tried so hard to resist <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Since you DON'T live in Iraq and are probably getting most of your information from the local news or skewed internet newsgroups I'd say you have no clue as to how things really are.
I read the stroy from the site you posted, and while tragic, dare I share a few 1000 such horrific stories about the small pieces of our citizens rescue personel picked up?
Most of our bombs were lased by men on the ground, do you have any clue what a surgical strike is?
Collateral dammage is a fact of war but with the missles and bombs we dropped plus the fact the entire country was given advanced warning as to when the attacks would start I would hope the majority of our bombs hit strategic targets and not innocents.
I grant you the fact that any human life taken is a waste, but most of us aren't going to stick our heads in the sand and let yet another American city attacked w/o doing our best to stop it AHEAD of time.
You bemoan the poor Iraqi citizens, since you're misleading about your location I ask you do you feel the same for the 6000 Americans who perished on 9/11?
Have you did your duty as a citizen of whatever country you live in as a solider?
Have you went into a burning, crumbling buliding like the NYPD,NYFD,EMS,countless others who ran back into the fires that day to help?
Do I care that innocent people were mamed/killed during our attacks, yes ofcourse I do.
Do I cry for the IDIOTS who strap bombs on and blow up MY people while they are just there trying to rebuild their schools, hospitals, give them a decent way of life, **** NO I hope we get them before they get us, if that makes me a bad person in your eyes so be it. Ron Cochran
Edited by - sc_rebel1957 on 3/25/2004 2:15:56 AM
Since you DON'T live in Iraq and are probably getting most of your information from the local news or skewed internet newsgroups I'd say you have no clue as to how things really are.
I read the stroy from the site you posted, and while tragic, dare I share a few 1000 such horrific stories about the small pieces of our citizens rescue personel picked up?
Most of our bombs were lased by men on the ground, do you have any clue what a surgical strike is?
Collateral dammage is a fact of war but with the missles and bombs we dropped plus the fact the entire country was given advanced warning as to when the attacks would start I would hope the majority of our bombs hit strategic targets and not innocents.
I grant you the fact that any human life taken is a waste, but most of us aren't going to stick our heads in the sand and let yet another American city attacked w/o doing our best to stop it AHEAD of time.
You bemoan the poor Iraqi citizens, since you're misleading about your location I ask you do you feel the same for the 6000 Americans who perished on 9/11?
Have you did your duty as a citizen of whatever country you live in as a solider?
Have you went into a burning, crumbling buliding like the NYPD,NYFD,EMS,countless others who ran back into the fires that day to help?
Do I care that innocent people were mamed/killed during our attacks, yes ofcourse I do.
Do I cry for the IDIOTS who strap bombs on and blow up MY people while they are just there trying to rebuild their schools, hospitals, give them a decent way of life, **** NO I hope we get them before they get us, if that makes me a bad person in your eyes so be it. Ron Cochran
Edited by - sc_rebel1957 on 3/25/2004 2:15:56 AM
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peacenik hippy so 'n' so
Hello sir...
Firstly allow me to say that I do NOT think you are a “bad person”...the fact that my arguments cut like VG-10 steel is only because I passionately disagree with your position. I know that with your son going to Iraq, this is a very emotional issue for you, and truly, I wish him a safe return to you. Indeed, since the bombing campaign is now over, the military operations in Iraq can actually do some good, even though that “good” is in large part a cleaning-up process of the mess made by that same military.
You would probably also find that I have more in common with you than you would like to admit...we are both fans of Spyderco and freedom and justice, and who knows what other interests we may share?
Now, we could argue back and forth about whose news/propaganda sources are the most reliable, but unless you believe that Ali Abbas’ story, and the thousands like it are a LIE, there is probably no need. I do indeed know what a “surgical strike” is, and the “shock and awe” campaign was not one of these, unless you believe that the victims of such a strike “require surgery” (amputation) afterwards.
Ali Abbas was not any more likely to attack an American city than any of the other thousands of Iraqi victims...there was no point in destroying their homes and taking their lives...indeed if America had not, they would probably find more of the Iraqi people friendlier right now. MY “head is not in the sand” when I say that NO definitive link between Iraq, and 9/11 has been discovered, either before OR after the invasion. (Although I hear that Bush nonetheless is giving out “war on terrorism” medals to American troops stationed in Iraq.) Since there is no link, I do not see the logic in bringing up the very tragic events of 9/11...there was no need to “get revenge” on the Iraqi citizens for 9/11.
I understand well what kind of an effect the extremely horrific events of 9/11 had on the American psyche, and in my opinion, it dishonours both the heroes and the victims, to turn around and USE that tragedy to commit virtually identical acts of terrorism to other innocent people in other countries...Now, YOU did not use it that way, but the powers that be did, and still are. Those same powers are probably what lends you the “us and them” mentality as well...I personally consider people from every country, religion, and ethnicity to be “MY people”, and the only “badguys” are the ones who try to divide and destroy us.
As evidenced by the ever-growing list of casualties, this portion of the Iraq war will be the most dangerous, the longest, the most gruelling...possibly the “shock and awe” campaign was supposed to prevent such casualties, but it is clear that it only delayed them, and indeed, inspired much of the anger now felt by a few of the Iraqi citizens, who know too well that those soldiers trying to help rebuild Iraq were the same ones who bombed it in the first place.
I am not such a peacenik that I do not believe taking out the “badguy” can solve a lot of problems...a “surgical strike” would have taken out Saddam. It is a shame that after spending so much money on high tech armaments, the U.S. chose to aim them at those schools and hospitals, which they are now attempting to rebuild. Indeed, the dangerous and expensive “rebuilding process” seems to me an ADMISSION that a real mistake was made somewhere.
Hmmm...so Gulf war 1 was ENDED because of WMDs, and GW2 was begun for the same reason...I guess that’s what they call “military intelligence”. When I say that, I do not mean to denigrate the military...in fact, some might say that I am a “student” of historical acts of military valour...none of the great and celebrated historical acts involved the bombing of civilians.
Again, sir, I wish your son a safe return.
take care -peacenik
Firstly allow me to say that I do NOT think you are a “bad person”...the fact that my arguments cut like VG-10 steel is only because I passionately disagree with your position. I know that with your son going to Iraq, this is a very emotional issue for you, and truly, I wish him a safe return to you. Indeed, since the bombing campaign is now over, the military operations in Iraq can actually do some good, even though that “good” is in large part a cleaning-up process of the mess made by that same military.
You would probably also find that I have more in common with you than you would like to admit...we are both fans of Spyderco and freedom and justice, and who knows what other interests we may share?
Now, we could argue back and forth about whose news/propaganda sources are the most reliable, but unless you believe that Ali Abbas’ story, and the thousands like it are a LIE, there is probably no need. I do indeed know what a “surgical strike” is, and the “shock and awe” campaign was not one of these, unless you believe that the victims of such a strike “require surgery” (amputation) afterwards.
Ali Abbas was not any more likely to attack an American city than any of the other thousands of Iraqi victims...there was no point in destroying their homes and taking their lives...indeed if America had not, they would probably find more of the Iraqi people friendlier right now. MY “head is not in the sand” when I say that NO definitive link between Iraq, and 9/11 has been discovered, either before OR after the invasion. (Although I hear that Bush nonetheless is giving out “war on terrorism” medals to American troops stationed in Iraq.) Since there is no link, I do not see the logic in bringing up the very tragic events of 9/11...there was no need to “get revenge” on the Iraqi citizens for 9/11.
I understand well what kind of an effect the extremely horrific events of 9/11 had on the American psyche, and in my opinion, it dishonours both the heroes and the victims, to turn around and USE that tragedy to commit virtually identical acts of terrorism to other innocent people in other countries...Now, YOU did not use it that way, but the powers that be did, and still are. Those same powers are probably what lends you the “us and them” mentality as well...I personally consider people from every country, religion, and ethnicity to be “MY people”, and the only “badguys” are the ones who try to divide and destroy us.
As evidenced by the ever-growing list of casualties, this portion of the Iraq war will be the most dangerous, the longest, the most gruelling...possibly the “shock and awe” campaign was supposed to prevent such casualties, but it is clear that it only delayed them, and indeed, inspired much of the anger now felt by a few of the Iraqi citizens, who know too well that those soldiers trying to help rebuild Iraq were the same ones who bombed it in the first place.
I am not such a peacenik that I do not believe taking out the “badguy” can solve a lot of problems...a “surgical strike” would have taken out Saddam. It is a shame that after spending so much money on high tech armaments, the U.S. chose to aim them at those schools and hospitals, which they are now attempting to rebuild. Indeed, the dangerous and expensive “rebuilding process” seems to me an ADMISSION that a real mistake was made somewhere.
Hmmm...so Gulf war 1 was ENDED because of WMDs, and GW2 was begun for the same reason...I guess that’s what they call “military intelligence”. When I say that, I do not mean to denigrate the military...in fact, some might say that I am a “student” of historical acts of military valour...none of the great and celebrated historical acts involved the bombing of civilians.
Again, sir, I wish your son a safe return.
take care -peacenik