Military 2

[Wartstein]

Button lock millie would be nice, or any other lock except liner, comp and back lock

Well, then CBBL or frame lock for you?

(Good choices imho, though in operation in all conditions nothing beats the Millie liner lock for me)

[knifemovieguy]

Button lock millie would be nice, or any other lock except liner, comp and back lock

Well, than CBBL or frame lock for you?

(Good choices imho, though in operation in all conditions nothing beats the Millie liner lock for me)

What’s the point of cbbl on Military if the Manix XL exists, they already did frame several times we need something new

[JakeXman]

I wonder if they've ever tried to do an upside down compression lock that operates like a liner lock?

I’ve thought about this before. The main issue is that the stop pin would be in the blade path. You could correct this by having the lock interface still on the spine-side of the pivot and the finger tab down to the edge-side of the handle, but then that lock liner could not support the pivot. I’ll draw what I’m thinking when I get the chance.

[Evil D]

I wonder if they've ever tried to do an upside down compression lock that operates like a liner lock?

I’ve thought about this before. The main issue is that the stop pin would be in the blade path. You could correct this by having the lock interface still on the spine-side of the pivot and the finger tab down to the edge-side of the handle, but then that lock liner could not support the pivot. I’ll draw what I’m thinking when I get the chance.

Yeah I feel kinda dumb now for not seeing that. Probably more hassle designing your way around it than it would be worth.

[Wartstein]

Button lock millie would be nice, or any other lock except liner, comp and back lock

Well, than CBBL or frame lock for you?

(Good choices imho, though in operation in all conditions nothing beats the Millie liner lock for me)

What’s the point of cbbl on Military if the Manix XL exists, they already did frame several times we need something new

My post was just referring to yours, where you literally said (quote) "... or any other lock except liner, comp and backlock" - so I assumed CBBL or frame would be types you consider!

I personally am perfectly fine with the great Millie linerlock, no change needed at all.
(But IF there has to be a change in locktype, I'd clearly prefer the CBBL over the comp.lock.
The argument that "there is already a Manix XL with a CBBL" would not count for me... I mean there are a PM2, Kapara, Shaman...with a COMP. lock, so why not also more knives with a CBBL, even if they are somewhat comparable on size?)

[knifemovieguy]

Completely forgot about compression-frame lock like on Salsa and ATR, that’s my main hope

[knifemovieguy]

Button lock millie would be nice, or any other lock except liner, comp and back lock

Well, than CBBL or frame lock for you?

(Good choices imho, though in operation in all conditions nothing beats the Millie liner lock for me)

What’s the point of cbbl on Military if the Manix XL exists, they already did frame several times we need something new

My post was just referring to yours, where you literally said (quote) "... or any other lock except liner, comp and backlock" - so I assumed CBBL or frame would be types you consider!

I personally am perfectly fine with the great Millie linerlock, no change needed at all.
(But IF there has to be a change in locktype, I'd clearly prefer the CBBL over the comp.lock.
The argument that "there is already a Manix XL with a CBBL" would not count for me... I mean there are a PM2, Kapara, Shaman...with a COMP. lock, so why not also more knives with a CBBL, even if they are somewhat comparable on size?)

Liner lock is the most boring and overused lock ever so the change is needed. Spyderco keep ignoring cbbl knives and bbl in general, maybe they don’t like the sale stats.

[knifemovieguy]

oops quoted myself accidentally

[Wartstein]

Liner lock is the most boring and overused lock ever so the change is needed. Spyderco keep ignoring cbbl knives and bbl in general, maybe they don’t like the sale stats.

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

[knifemovieguy]

Liner lock is the most boring and overused lock ever so the change is needed. Spyderco keep ignoring cbbl knives and bbl in general, maybe they don’t like the sale stats.

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

[James Y]

Liner lock is the most boring and overused lock ever so the change is needed. Spyderco keep ignoring cbbl knives and bbl in general, maybe they don’t like the sale stats.

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Liner locks might seem like they’re easy to make, but they are very difficult to get right. In my experience with the Military (I own four of them, the first one for 20 years now), Spyderco got it right.

Jim

[knifemovieguy]

Liner lock is the most boring and overused lock ever so the change is needed. Spyderco keep ignoring cbbl knives and bbl in general, maybe they don’t like the sale stats.

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Liner locks might seem like they’re easy to make, but they are very difficult to get right. In my experience with the Military (I own four of them, the first one for 20 years now), Spyderco got it right.

Jim

Maybe for you they did it right but not for me in 4/6 cases (fallen detent on Squarehead and lock stick on grey Lum). That’s why my opinion differs from yours and Wartstein so you can’t change my mind just like i can’t change yours.

[James Y]

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Liner locks might seem like they’re easy to make, but they are very difficult to get right. In my experience with the Military (I own four of them, the first one for 20 years now), Spyderco got it right.

Jim

Maybe for you they did it right but not for me in 4/6 cases (fallen detent on Squarehead and lock stick on grey Lum). That’s why my opinion differs from yours and Wartstein so you can’t change my mind just like i can’t change yours.

Fair enough. Our experiences differ, and both are valid.

By the way, I wasn’t trying to change your mind. I merely stated a fact, that liner locks are not easy to make just right. Often, those things that appear the simplest can be the hardest to perfect.

Jim

[Nuh Nups]

Liner locks might seem like they’re easy to make, but they are very difficult to get right. In my experience with the Military (I own four of them, the first one for 20 years now), Spyderco got it right.

Jim

I agree with you, Jim. The lock not only feels solid and strong, it even SOUNDS like it is well made.

[Wartstein]

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Well, if you cannot appreciate the advantages of a linerlock (more than "just ease of making", and as Jim said a perfect one actually is not easy to make) - despite several are listed in this thread, then for you those are just not advantages. Which is fine and might be the case because you obviously don´t use your folders in outdoor / harsher conditions (for me a linerlock is generally the most convenient lock in operation, but in the outdoors this is even more so the case)

"Fixed are meant for outdoors" still imho is an a bit narrow minded statement. Many experienced "outdoor-folks" do use folders there, exclusively or as companion to a (larger) fixed blade, folders can be more than sufficient for use in rain or cold and are more convenient to carry and store away again.
And word is that the Millie was actually designed as a folder Sal would have given his son (at the time a kid) should he join the Military - arguing that a folder used in the Military is "not for outdoor use" is a bit strange...
So it is a good thing that Spyderco offers options for the many people who want and need folders for the outdoors.

/ You criticize the linerlock for things that are not genuinly "linerlock issues": Not centered, lock stick, "fallen detent" can and do happen with other locks as well.

But as Jim said: No one is trying to change your mind - just different opinions, both fine, just a discussion. :)
That being said: Preferences and experiences obviously differ, even more so Spyderco should keep its pretty much only higher end in house linerlock folder as it is for those who see the value and advantages of this locktype. Enough options out there in other locktypes anyway (perhaps not true for the CBBL though...)

[knifemovieguy]

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Well, if you cannot appreciate the advantages of a linerlock (more than "just ease of making", and as Jim said a perfect one actually is not easy to make) - despite several are listed in this thread, then for you those are just not advantages. Which is fine and might be the case because you obviously don´t use your folders in outdoor / harsher conditions (for me a linerlock is generally the most convenient lock in operation, but in the outdoors this is even more so the case)

"Fixed are meant for outdoors" still imho is an a bit narrow minded statement. Many experienced "outdoor-folks" do use folders there, exclusively or as companion to a (larger) fixed blade, folders can be more than sufficient for use in rain or cold and are more convenient to carry and store away again.
And word is that the Millie was actually designed as a folder Sal would have given his son (at the time a kid) should he join the Military - arguing that a folder used in the Military is "not for outdoor use" is a bit strange...
So it is a good thing that Spyderco offers options for the many people who want and need folders for the outdoors.

/ You criticize the linerlock for things that are not genuinly "linerlock issues": Not centered, lock stick, "fallen detent" can and do happen with other locks as well.

But as Jim said: No one is trying to change your mind - just different opinions, both fine, just a discussion. :)
That being said: Preferences and experiences obviously differ, even more so Spyderco should keep its pretty much only higher end in house linerlock folder as it is for those who see the value and advantages of this locktype. Enough options out there in other locktypes anyway (perhaps not true for the CBBL though...)

For harsher conditions you kidding, there are bunch of vids about bended linerlock. All these “outdoors experts” mostly promoting their own knives. Abvgat (experienced taiga outdoorsman) says that you don’t need any knife in hike or whatever.

[Wartstein]

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

For harsher conditions you kidding, there are bunch of vids about bended linerlock. All these “outdoors experts” mostly promoting their own knives. Abvgat (experienced taiga outdoorsman) says that you don’t need any knife in hike or whatever.

Man, I can see that you obviously have a lot of experience with folders/knives, perhaps more so than I do. Not doubt.
And so your opinion is certainly valid for YOUR use of folders!

But, and no offense meant: What I am talking about is also my own, pretty extended experience. Which is similar to many here on this forum. Folders - good linerlocks like the Millie included - get used in the outdoors and harsher conditions all the time!
The Millie was probably to a large part even designed with that in mind, and I never, ever read here of a "bended linerlock" on a Millie (but sure on crappy linerlock knives. But on CRAPPY made knives also the scales fall of, the blade snaps, and so on).

I do respect what an "experienced taiga outdoorsman" says about knives in HIS use - but in my outdoor/harsh condition use (mostly in the mountains, but I´ve also been to taiga-like areas in the north of Europe and Alaska) a knife is often necessary and a good folder is sufficient and very convenient in many cases! I can´t think of any task where I would bend a Millie linerlock - the only one potentially could be light batoning of smaller pieces of wood in order to make kindling. I think the Millie could easily take even that, but when doing this then always with unlocked blade, no matter which lock type.

"Outdoor use" in "harsh condition" in many cases just means that it is cold, it snows, you wear gloves and want to make shavings, cut cordage or food, carve notches or whatever with your folder. Not really "hard use" tasks, but in the given scenario an easy to operate lock like the linerlock is nice to have. For me a lot more convenient than for example a comp.lock.

Again: This is not about "wrong or right", I don´t want to "change your mind" and respect and appreciate your opinion! :)
Mine is just different to yours.

[aicolainen]

I am bit surprised - did you actually read the thread and perhaps watch the vid linked by Kobold?

Might be that for YOU the linerlock is "boring" (and that's fine of course), but for many who really use their folders in the outdoors it is a great and most convenient option, with some distinct advantages.

Also, the linerlock is not "overused" at all, but actually extremely underrepresentated in Spydercos HIGHER end in house folders...

Plus: There is a world of difference between a crappy and a well made (=Spyderco) linerkock... :)

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Well, if you cannot appreciate the advantages of a linerlock (more than "just ease of making", and as Jim said a perfect one actually is not easy to make) - despite several are listed in this thread, then for you those are just not advantages. Which is fine and might be the case because you obviously don´t use your folders in outdoor / harsher conditions (for me a linerlock is generally the most convenient lock in operation, but in the outdoors this is even more so the case)

"Fixed are meant for outdoors" still imho is an a bit narrow minded statement. Many experienced "outdoor-folks" do use folders there, exclusively or as companion to a (larger) fixed blade, folders can be more than sufficient for use in rain or cold and are more convenient to carry and store away again.
And word is that the Millie was actually designed as a folder Sal would have given his son (at the time a kid) should he join the Military - arguing that a folder used in the Military is "not for outdoor use" is a bit strange...
So it is a good thing that Spyderco offers options for the many people who want and need folders for the outdoors.

/ You criticize the linerlock for things that are not genuinly "linerlock issues": Not centered, lock stick, "fallen detent" can and do happen with other locks as well.

But as Jim said: No one is trying to change your mind - just different opinions, both fine, just a discussion. :)
That being said: Preferences and experiences obviously differ, even more so Spyderco should keep its pretty much only higher end in house linerlock folder as it is for those who see the value and advantages of this locktype. Enough options out there in other locktypes anyway (perhaps not true for the CBBL though...)

For harsher conditions you kidding, there are bunch of vids about bended linerlock. All these “outdoors experts” mostly promoting their own knives. Abvgat (experienced taiga outdoorsman) says that you don’t need any knife in hike or whatever.

Just to wrap my head around this statement, are you using “harsh conditions” and “hard use” interchangeably in this discussion?

I’ve never seen a lock bend from harsh conditions alone.

Harsh conditions, in my understanding, relates only to the environment and how that affects ergonomics and operation of the knife. It does not imply anything with regards to what it’s used for.

I don’t mean to be critical of your preferences, those are always subjective and totally valid, but to have a meaningful discussion there needs to be a common understanding of the problem, and the terms used to describe it.
People talking past each other is a waste of everyone’s time.

Edit: I can see that Wartstein beat me in posting very similar arguments. The repetitiveness was unintentional :)

[knifemovieguy]

Off Topic

Fixeds are meant for outdoors.
Have you ever visited knife expos? All you see is linerlocks and i don’t care if it’s crappy or well made i’m just tired of seeing it on every 2nd knife produced. My ATS34 Military just couldn’t be centered as well as an old Lum Tanto. The only advantage of this lock is that ease of making.

Well, if you cannot appreciate the advantages of a linerlock (more than "just ease of making", and as Jim said a perfect one actually is not easy to make) - despite several are listed in this thread, then for you those are just not advantages. Which is fine and might be the case because you obviously don´t use your folders in outdoor / harsher conditions (for me a linerlock is generally the most convenient lock in operation, but in the outdoors this is even more so the case)

"Fixed are meant for outdoors" still imho is an a bit narrow minded statement. Many experienced "outdoor-folks" do use folders there, exclusively or as companion to a (larger) fixed blade, folders can be more than sufficient for use in rain or cold and are more convenient to carry and store away again.
And word is that the Millie was actually designed as a folder Sal would have given his son (at the time a kid) should he join the Military - arguing that a folder used in the Military is "not for outdoor use" is a bit strange...
So it is a good thing that Spyderco offers options for the many people who want and need folders for the outdoors.

/ You criticize the linerlock for things that are not genuinly "linerlock issues": Not centered, lock stick, "fallen detent" can and do happen with other locks as well.

But as Jim said: No one is trying to change your mind - just different opinions, both fine, just a discussion. :)
That being said: Preferences and experiences obviously differ, even more so Spyderco should keep its pretty much only higher end in house linerlock folder as it is for those who see the value and advantages of this locktype. Enough options out there in other locktypes anyway (perhaps not true for the CBBL though...)

For harsher conditions you kidding, there are bunch of vids about bended linerlock. All these “outdoors experts” mostly promoting their own knives. Abvgat (experienced taiga outdoorsman) says that you don’t need any knife in hike or whatever.

Just to wrap my head around this statement, are you using “harsh conditions” and “hard use” interchangeably in this discussion?

Is there any difference? How you can get light use in harsh conditions, this is the cause of hard use. Maybe for english/other language minded person this not the same but for me it is.

[Wartstein]

Off Topic

For harsher conditions you kidding, there are bunch of vids about bended linerlock. All these “outdoors experts” mostly promoting their own knives. Abvgat (experienced taiga outdoorsman) says that you don’t need any knife in hike or whatever.

Just to wrap my head around this statement, are you using “harsh conditions” and “hard use” interchangeably in this discussion?

Is there any difference? How you can get light use in harsh conditions, this is the cause of hard use. Maybe for english/other language minded person this not the same but for me it is.

I see you´re based in Russia, and if you are actually Russian your English is really, really good (better than mine - I am (also) not a Native speaker in English) - still, perhaps there really is a misunderstanding due to language-issues?

I ´ve laid it out in my previous post anyway (viewtopic.php?p=1529545#p1529541), but OF COURSE there can be "light" use in "harsh" conditions: Freezing cold, wet, greasy fingers or hands in gloves, exhausted, dehydrated, "tired" fingers from climbing, whatever (=harsh conditions) - but you just have to cut some thin cordage for example (=light use). Easy task, but for me in that conditions and/or the state I am in, for example a comp. lock knife would be less safe in hand and harder to operate (small locktab in an unnatural place and so on) than a good linerlock.

Many tasks in the outdoors are not really "hard" - but the conditions/enviroment are.

/ Btw: IF one uses a folder for real hard tasks that is still just doable by a folder (and does not require a fixed blade): I´d trust a Millie linerlock as much as a comp. lock, CBBL or backlock, thoughs techniqually speaking the linerlock most likely will be the "weakest" of the four