Mule Team flipping

[Nate]

Here's a crazy idea. Some Mules are obviously more popular than others. The pre-sale announcements give potential scalpers a few weeks to set up their schemes to circumvent the 2 per customer limit on "hot" releases.

How about Spyderco doing the announcement as usual, but they only give the date/time and do not reveal the steel and price until they drop on the Web site :eek:

It might give a leg up to the people who are actually interested in the program and want the knives to own, vs. to immediately resell. It might also do nothing, just throwing it out there.

[fuzzydog]

Sal, I greatly admire Spyderco, you, and the forum BUT I have pretty much given up on the MT's.

I look at the forum every day...actually twice a day but don't read every post and don't post much...I own maybe 20-30 Spyderco knives...they are the only knives I own. Thus compared to most here I am small potatoes I know.

I did want the last MT but have a job and work long days and can't access the internet fulltime. Every time I went to the site the MT and I went maybe 10 times it was sold out.

To be honest when I read about everyone who bought two I get a little down but rather than get angry I have just given up on the whole thing....I almost did not respond to this thread even but thought maybe my feelings are shared by others who would not post.

I do read the reports on the steel which in truth is the whole reason for the program....so for that I grateful and encourage the program to continue.

My suggestion would be to let everyone who wants one preorder for one knife and be entered into a lottery...give folks a week to submit their preorder with credit card and an address and have a random drawing for a single knife each when they are available then charge those folks and ship their knives. If there are knives left over, then sell them on the website at $ 10.00 greater than the lottery price...that way average folks might have a chance to get one but folks who want more could be served as well. There will always be flippers and some legitimate resellers but the way it is currently it is my impression the deck is stacked against an average guy.

[Joshua J.]

Is flipping a big problem with the collectors club?

No, rather it's actually how some (many?) people manage to stay in the program.
With the Collectors club it isn't a problem because it isn't a charity, the only reason flipping Mules is a problem is that the intention of the program isn't to make money.
Quite frankly I would rather pay more money and have more supply, I did miss both the K390 and S110V Mules.
If Spyderco is going to take the time to make more, it just wouldn't be right for them to keep doing it for free.

I don't think Spyderco profiting off the Mules cripples the program either, you're still eliminating a large portion of work, tooling etc. when you don't put a handle on. You are still only paying for the minimum of what makes the knife.
I would say that QC could be an issue, but Sal has already done recalls on Mules in the past. It looks to me like the project is already producing retail ready blades.

[JNewell]

Limiting to 2 knives isn't helping. People won't like it but I think they should be limited to 1 knife. That will spread the Project out more. These knives are meant to be used to test the steel.

If limiting to 2 knives isn't working, what would limiting to 1 solve? :confused: Scalpers would still get around the 1 limit just like they get around the 2 limit.

Agreed, changing the limit to one won't have any impact on anyone who is currently scamming the system, and it would have a large effect on people who are buying two for various good reasons.

The club idea might have merit - membership fee, pre-pay, etc.

That and raising prices significantly, but I doubt anyone really favors that?

[MountainManJim]

I would make a terrible flipper. Here’s my story.

I can’t justify or afford the upper tier Spyderco knives. I want them all, but above the $100 price point I start to feel sick. I remember a time when Spyderco would make knives with high end steels fitted to inexpensive (but durable) plastic handles. I miss those days.

I missed out on the first sale of the 2013 forum knife. When the second opportunity came about, I was completely compelled to get one. I have never bought a forum knife before because they were simply out of my price range. But, there was something about last year’s design that made it irresistible. It spoke to me. So, I was resigned to purchase two and resell (yep, immediately) the second knife to offset my investment in the first. I figured I might be able to get the forum knife, in the end, for $50, sweet.

My plan didn’t work out. I was lucky enough to order two forum knives. They were waiting for me at SFO and I going to pick them up today. But, I forgot to tell my buddy at work about this opportunity. Years ago, I got him addicted to Spydercos, I feel a certain responsibility for his addiction. He’s not a forumite (he has a life), but he loves the Native. I just had to tell him about my purchase, but I assumed that once he heard how much I spent he’d laugh at me and tell me I was crazy for spending so much; he’s cheap like me. But, that’s not what happened.

Once he saw pictures of the knife online, I could see he really wanted the knife. He was drawn in by the flat grind and G-10. I knew what I needed to do. I offered to sell my second knife to him at cost. The tension was visible. Matt really wanted the knife, but he was having problems justifying it. His face visibly showed the conflict that was being waged in this head. The lines were drawn, 1) wow, is that an amazing knife, 2) wow, that’s a lot of coin to drop on a something I’m going carry with me to open up boxes and eventually loss or have the TSA take away from me. So, I suggested that we go out to lunch and swing by SFO to pick up my forum knives. Once, he held that knife in his hand, he was done for. After lunch, I was sitting in my office and Matt walked in had handed me a wad of cash. The knife was his. Sometime you need to feed the addiction.

It felt good to share this opportunity with Matt. You have seen his face as he marveled at the knife. There is something about a quality item like a Spyderco.

Now, my forum knife sits in box on a shelf, I’m too guilty to take it out. For me, I use all my knives, but it’s too nice and expensive to use and abuse. What to do, what to do ….. but, I know what you are thinking and no, I am not going to sell it to you. It’s mine and you can’t have it.

Jim

[bearfacedkiller]

It would be unfortunate to exclude people who would really enjoy the mule team knives. We can't forget that there are a lot of people who love knives just as much as the forum members on here but who do not love computers and online forums as much as the members here. I'm sure lots of people try not to miss out on these runs but like myself many people have multiple hobbies and many resposibilities and can't be all consumed with waiting for the next knife to come out. There are also many lurkers who haven't signed up such as myself (until recently) because they are still learning and do not have much to offer. Lurkers should be able to get their hands on this stuff as well so they can learn from first hand experience because you can forum all day but until you use the knife and get out the stones you don't really know jack. Is this mule program for knife nuts or knife and forum nuts? I realize that this forum provides a valuable resource to the company as a way to exchange ideas and for that I am very grateful but i feel that announcing the sale of them on the forum is all the advantage the forum member needs. That is already a huge advantage to the avid forum member. This isn't meant to be aimed at anybody in particular, I am just trying to give my perspective.

Collecting the money in advance. I would think that six months would deter most flippers.

Releasing on weekdays at 9 really is kind of strange. I am lucky that I can get to a computer at work but many can't. Kind of opens it up to the "self employed" aka flippers we are talking about and maybe provides a barrier to 70% of America that is probably at work. I know not all customers are in America but still, most of your average joes that are supposed to be getting these things are at work.

[JNewell]

Sal,

Raise the price, if people are actually paying secondary market prices, that is what the item is worth. If the problem is some folks didn't jump on a mule sale and are now complaining about the price, that is another problem, entitlement. If the problem is opportunity to purchase, I suggest selling just 50 or 100 blades per week over several weeks might give more buyers a chance to purchase. Setting up a collectors club or tracking purchases would put an undue burden on Spyderco and I would prefer to have you spending your time designing and building knives.

I just looked at eBay, there are several MT blades for sale. I found one seller that was offering five of the same blades, but most are selling individual blades. Other that the seller with five of the same blade, I don't see this as a big problem. In the listing for the five blades he even says he bought them for an investment but needs money now.

I have a large collection of Spyderco knives, many new in the box. While I gifted a lot of them I keep buying more. When I die or get too infirm to care, some or all of them will be sold for whatever they are worth at the time. Some will likely sell for more than I paid and undoubtedly, some for less than I paid. I bought them and myself or my heirs should be able to sell them for what the market will pay. I don't see a difference in that situation or a dealer stocking a few more of a popular item to sell. Anyone buying something to sell also runs the rick of paying up front for things they cannot sell later.

The issue is basic economics. These are supposed to be a test platform but many people want them as users. The problem is ( I hate to say it) that they are priced so low. If the price is that far below the value than opportunistic individuals are going to seize that opportunity. I hope there is a solution other than pricing them at their actual value because that rules me out.

I believe this project is a genuine benefit to the future of knives and must be preserved.

I think price is the only solution that has a chance of reducing flipping. People flip knives because they can make some money. If the purchase price is higher, at some point the profit is reduced to the point where it's unattractive or even uneconomic.

Consider the last two Mules as an example. Production fixed blades in K390 and S110V are nearly (probably literally) non-existent, at any price. The chance to purchase one for <$100 is an incredible opportunity, which is great for those of us who want to buy them and use them for the original purpose, but also makes them extraordinarily attractive to a lot of other people.

Take a look at eBay and other secondary pricing and move the SFO price up to 80% or so of those prices and the profit disappears. I would hate to see that happen, but if flipping and speculation is a problem, I think that's the only real solution that doesn't involve massive administrative effort and expense.

[JNewell]

And, finally, a few bright thoughts.

First, a big thank you to Sal and Spyderco for this amazing program.

Second, although it's a negative situation that has occasioned this thread, looking on the bright side, we have a very good, thoughtful thread here, started by the guy who runs the shop, without any nasty or even testy posts in four pages. Nothing's perfect, but this is a good place. :spyder:

[yablanowitz]

Over the course of the last couple of years, the cost of living has overtaken my income once again. Throwing down a couple of hundred dollars at a moment's notice is no longer an option for me. I need the lead time of the advance notice they've been giving us to get my finances in line and decide whether the last Mule I bought will be the last one I buy. When Spyderco took an email poll to judge interest before making MT01, I said I would buy two of whatever they made without having a clue what they would cost. I've kept my word up until now, but if the prices are about to take a big jump, I may no longer be able to honor that commitment.

Limit of one will not deter people who have already proven that they will circumvent a limit of two. Honor systems don't work on people who have no honor. Serial numbering every piece and tracking who they are sold to would add a huge amount of expense to what is already a low margin project. Even having a Mule Team Club (which was considered way back at the time of the email poll) might be enough added expense to render the program unjustifiable. Throwing them into the regular distribution network with the attendant price jump and doubling the size of the runs would solve the current problems but create a host of new ones. I would also consider that the end of the Mule Team project as we know it, since it would no longer be a low-cost way of letting us try new steels, but just another fixed blade model.

[Laethageal]

I love the idea of progressive release each month Bearfacedkiller suggested. Make it that way with a 2-3 months reservation delay. It will keep the resale price down since more are to come, and the reservation delay might scare away the flipper since they know they will not be able to sell it right away, nor make a huge profit out of it.

[Donut]

I didn't jump on the S110V bandwagon, I wanted one, but didn't jump on it. I might try to trade for one.

Some of these are consolidated form the thread. I probably missed a lot of suggestions.

The easy solutions would be:

1. Make a lot of them to make them less rare.
2. Sell them in batches so the flippers don't have the "there will never be any more of these" blackmail stance.
3. Raise the price to make it less profitable. (Should we choose a charity? :) We could get the flippers to take part in charity.)
4. Engrave the MSRP on the blade?

The difficult solutions would be:

5. Membership, with or without fees.
6. Limit who can buy them.

#2 - If 1,200 were made and 200 were released each month for 6 months or 300 for 4 months, would that help? Maybe sell 400 the first month and 200 for 4 months. This would be semi-difficult for Spyderco.

#4 - Make it obvious that people are overpaying for it, though you might have to engrave it on both sides or the flipper will try to hide it.

#5 - That's gotta be tough for Spyderco and the flippers will easily be able to get membership.

#6 - I imagine it will be easy to bypass any system of trying to weed out the flippers.

[Donut]

Were there many flippers on the Green Para? Could we do a 6 month pre-order? Deposit or pay up front?

[Ferris Wheels]

I am on board for a pre-order system. Preorders would be placed through SFO, listing price, steel type and having a disclaimer that your pre-order deposit is non-refundable and there are no guarantees on date of release being accurate and that it is only a estimate. You would leave the preorder open for a month with announcements on all major knife forums and provide a mule team schedule on the SFO website like the sprint/exclusive page currently. Once the preorder is closed Spyderco would then place the order for the steel plus enough for 200?, 400? additional. Sales would be limited to two per household and those who miss the preorder would still have a shot at the non-allocated portion.

[bearfacedkiller]

And, finally, a few bright thoughts.

Second, although it's a negative situation that has occasioned this thread, looking on the bright side, we have a very good, thoughtful thread here, started by the guy who runs the shop, without any nasty or even testy posts in four pages. Nothing's perfect, but this is a good place. :spyder:

This has been a great discussion. This forum truly is an asset and the people here want to help.

[Surfingringo]

If limiting to 2 knives isn't working, what would limiting to 1 solve? :confused: Scalpers would still get around the 1 limit just like they get around the 2 limit.

But you are starting from the erroneous premise that limiting to two knives isn't working. Of course it's working. Can you imagine if instead of a two knife limit it was 10? Or 20? Or if there was no limit? So the fact that spyderco uses a 2 knife limit does indeed have an effect and putting a 1 knife limit would have a greater effect. Sure the flippers could still get a dozen knives, but instead of having to enlist 5 friends, they would need 11. If you make it more difficult to flip then less people will do it. Sure some would still abuse the system but the law of diminishing returns would start to take effect.

[ohcyclist]

Complex problem and one without an obvious solution as is becoming clear as the posts pile up.

I mostly lurk on the forum, and actually did not bother to get a user name for a year or more but was compelled to start participating based on the quality of the community and the incredible engagement of the Spyderco Team. This seems like an issue that is beyond just the MT and clearly strikes a nerve across this very passionate group of people. It is incredibly humbling that Spyderco is taking this seriously and looking for solutions.

Perhaps a summary of reccomended solutions so far and a couple of thoughts:
1) Volume limits - reduce to one per customer, zip code limitations, other limits to slow large purchases
2) Tracking - serial numbers on blades, shipping database, card purchase database, paypal database or address tracking
3) Pre-payment - require funds extended periods prior to delivery
4) Increase pricing - reduce possible profit
5) Increase production - larger releases to reduce scarcity
6) Phased sales - release product over time
7) Membership based sales

Personally I am not a fan of only one per customer limits as I like to purchase 2 of many items. Some things I gift to friends or family (my father would freak out if he knew the cost on a few of the knives he carries regularly) and at times I like a "pre-need replacement" on an item I really love.

Tracking puts quite a burden on Spyderco, and it is not like they have folks sitting around with nothing to do. Similarly phased sales, pre-payment and memberships could add administrative headaches. However I would be willing to pay a small premium across each knife I buy if this will help, or perhaps there are technology solutions in this space that are less complex/expensive than I may expect.

Increased pricing has the highest likelihood of quick success, but does not seem to fit with what I think of as the company ethos, and would start to make Spydercos luxury goods instead of tools as I believe is intended.

I would suggest that re-releasing/increasing production has a strong chance of reducing the problem. I know it is a major ask from Spyderco as production is already at max capacity. However larger runs could help, and the threat of a re-release could really restrict mark up. There is much less reason to pay high multiples on items you want if you miss the initial sale if there is a chance that there will be additional runs. In particular if it started to look like items were being flipped agressively a quick note on the forum from a member of the spydercrew that there was going to be a second run of an item could really slow down run away prices. One or two re-released items could strike a lot of fear in the hearts of flippers and put their economic model at risk.

In the end it may be hard to ever solve the problem completely as there will always be folks looking to make an easy buck.

Whatever solution Sal and the team come up with I am happy to live with and try to support.

[JLS]

Over the course of the last couple of years, the cost of living has overtaken my income once again. Throwing down a couple of hundred dollars at a moment's notice is no longer an option for me.

Honor systems don't work on people who have no honor. Serial numbering every piece and tracking who they are sold to would add a huge amount of expense to what is already a low margin project.

I've been very grateful to Sal and the Spyderco team for the Mule project. I had scaled back on my knife purchase for a number of years and wasn't around the forum for the original discussion of the Mule Team project or the release of the first. Once I heard about the project, I was back in and have tried to be a supporter and informer to others about the project. I've tried to give feedback on independent hardness testing as well, which few have the opportunity to do. The earlier Mules were often easier to swallow price-wise, but as of late, they are all wonderful high-end steels that in high demand and consequently drive the high secondary market.

I find myself in a similar situation to yablanowitz and I don't want to see this turn into a burden for Spyderco. Thus far, I think they been able to gather good information about the manufacturability of different steels in the same form across multiple continents. We've been very anxious to cover the costs of this project, but I doubt Spyderco is making much of anything on this. Sal and company have been doing us a great favor by continuing it. But when public opinion builds against their model and people take a negative view on a very positive program, why should they continue?

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions or solutions to add to what's already been said.

I will continue to buy the Mules as long as I can. I will continue to make handles and sheaths for them and carry them nearly everyday as I have for years. I truly enjoy going to my rack of Mules and picking a different one every couple of weeks or choosing one based on the tasks of the day. It's been a lot of fun for me to work with micarta, G-10, various hardwoods, paracord, carbon fiber, brass, stainless steel, kydex and leather. It's been a great learning process for me. I still have very fond memories of the Chinese MT05 Mule as they didn't sell very fast and when there was unlimited buying available, I was able to convince quite a few friends in the middle of Utah to buy one and make handles. There's probably about 30 of them floating around a 30 mile radius here.

At the end of all of this, I just want to say thank you to everyone who's made the project a success thus far. If this is the end, it's been a great ride. If not, I look forward to the future.

[cckw]

It is annoying that flippers beat enthusiasts to these products, no doubt about that. But trying to control it would be likely to offend many of us by over reaching the norms of business, yet still not succeeding in affecting the market (because the market rules the market). I am a collector of many things including Mules. I have both bought and sold Mules at aftermarket prices and am happy to have the option for both. I also have a collector friend in Europe that buys knives including Mules and has them sent to me, I combine several of his purchases and ship in one box saving him hundred each year. I would hate to be scrutinized for doing this favor as there are always 4 of each mule coming to my address.

Back to my point of only the market can rule the market. Doubling the size of each run would make it a less lucrative prospect as there would then be enough to go around to the enthusiasts even with the flipper taking their cut out. Stick the flippers with some unprofitable blades and they won't be so eager to buy the next batch.

[JNewell]

Question for discussion (not an objection): would pre-ordering reduce the ability to flip knives? If so, why? (It's not obvious to me how pre-ordering/pre-paying changes the speculators' ability to work around the current good-faith system.)

[Ankerson]

Question for discussion (not an objection): would pre-ordering reduce the ability to flip knives? If so, why? (It's not obvious to me how pre-ordering/pre-paying changes the speculators' ability to work around the current good-faith system.)

Do it 6 months ahead of time, full payment....

Those flippers wouldn't want their money tied up for that long...

And it would give Spyderco a lot more time to track less than above board orders also.