Mule Team flipping

[DougC-3]

En Francais, eh?

I think he's just referring to the fact that in Canada they use the same spellings for the mother tongue that they use in the Mother Land: colour for color, humour for humor, realise for realize, programme for program, catalogue for catalog, etc. :D

[hunterseeker5]

That may be what the catalog says, but I clearly remember paying $39.95 and being thrilled with the howling deal I was getting. Even after all these fancy steels, I still love that knife.

Gordon

You may be correct. I can't honestly say. Even at that price though, you're still spoiled for choice with nice carbon steel cutlery in that class that does come with handles. I'm not trying to insult spyderco saying its bad value, but its certainly not "back up the truck" cheap either. I certainly hope spyderco, who pockets the entirety of that price unlike their MSRPs which are about double what I figure a good street price is, would be making some $$$ on these projects.

[Donut]

En Francais, eh?

What's all this aboot? =)

[Geraldo29]

I have Spyderco Tenacious, Black G-10 Handle, Black Blade, Plain.
[ATTACH]23324[/ATTACH]

Price: $49.24 & FREE Shipping
I'm buy from amazon.

[ManixFan]

Doug.....you are on the right track and closest to my intended attempt at "making a funny". Was just waiting for someone to correct me in refeyring to the "English" language first as the "Canadian language" and then the "American language". I guess there aren't too many easily offended Englishmen on this forum, eh? The "eh" is pure Canadian.....the "aboot" are just the Easterner's who everybody from Quebec westwards don't really consider as real Canadians :D - as I keep telling my Newfie brother-in-law.

After still having Rob Ford as the Mayor of Toronto though I have to hang my head in shame on the international scene. The whole world must think we're idiots in Toronto for still having him as a Mayor. Oh well - great for the entertainment value. SNL, Colbert & Stewart never made me laugh so hard as I have in a long time with some of their Robbie Ford skits. Oh well enough political, non-knife talk. Back to serious chat about all the evil flippers and how every mule team must from henceforth be fitted with non-removable GPS trackers identifying each MT's original owners who will never be allowed to purchase another MT if their purchase is found to mysteriously stray too far away from their shipping address.

Peace out..........I'll see everybody on other threads (whenever I decide to engage in being social - rather than lurking). I think its time to stick a fork in this thread - after all the posts prior to Sal's response and his response itself - I think the horse is dead. Feel free to keep beating it without me......I'll go fondle my knives in private now.

But I would like to thank some of the guru posters that I've seen in these forums for advancing my knowledge of knife steels, metallurgy, impact of blade geometries, sharpening, etc. (Ankerson & Stamp come immediately to mind - as well as too many others really to mention). The lurkers (at least myself) appreciate all the information available on these forums that is concentrated in one place so that lazy people like myself don't have to go to the library to do their research like in the pre-internet days of my teenage years (DOB - 1970).

[TheWeatherman]

Wow...

Sal, I am sorry you have to deal with the "flipping". After going through the 13 pages I think you are on the right track. It is hard to deal with supply and demand.

I came to the into the Mule game just this past month. It is a great program that allows people to test the knives, educated the users on steel, allow guys like me who make knives to test out knife steels. It gives me an idea of where to start.

I like the mules so much I would like to get a hold of some of the older models, but refuse to pay the prices on ebay.

I hope this doesn't go away.

[DougC-3]

Some possible conclusions to be made from all this info:

The flipping problem may not be as bad as it seems. It may be magnified by the ire of people who failed to get a mule.

A lot of people have to work at the time when they're released or when more become available later. Surely most people have a friend or relative they could persuade to call or "compute" in a purchase for them.

Some people lead stressful lives or just don't have the time or means to find out when mules come available. People like me who like to keep up with things like that could tip them off. We could have little networks of 5 or 6 people who alert each other by PM. They could just go to their settings and insure that the forum will email them when they get a PM. That way they wouldn't even have to exchange or keep up with each other's email addresses.

People who live in other parts of the world have special problems obtaining mules, sprints, etc. US forum members should try to be more aware of this and offer to help when it seems appropriate.

IMO the suggestions for more exclusivity with mules are a bad idea. Even the forum knives are not sold exclusively to forum members. I think such a move would go against the whole philosophy of the mule program.

So far this program has been available to young people and others on a pretty tight budget and I think the price should stay relatively low because, as others have said, it is very interesting and recruits a lot of lifelong afis.

On the other hand I think Spyderco should get something more than wholesale price for these jewels. And I don't think it makes any sense to compare their price to that of regular production knives, certainly not ones made in Japan, IMO. I think it's a whole different ball of wax. The steels have to be specially procured in small batches. Much time consuming experimentation is often involved as well as extra labor, grinding exotic steels, etc. They are all made and sold in one relatively brief time period, sink or swim. (I presume that it would be possible to warehouse surplus Enduras, for example, and sell them at a more opportune time if something interfered with initial sales?) Mules are not promoted and sold by a ready network of distributors and dealers.

From what Sal says it seems that preorders are probably not going to happen because of the unpredictable time constraints involved in production, unpredictable economic factors, and no-doubt the huge hassle of juggling all the order records, prepayments if any and refund requests. And maybe the flipping problem doesn't even warrant a drastic step like this.

But if some way can be worked out for nonrefundable deposits or prepayments to be made, especially if it helps gauge the run size, I for one would be glad to participate.

[DougC-3]

Doug.....you are on the right track and closest to my intended attempt at "making a funny". Was just waiting for someone to correct me in refeyring to the "English" language first as the "Canadian language" and then the "American language". I guess there aren't too many easily offended Englishmen on this forum, eh? The "eh" is pure Canadian.....the "aboot" are just the Easterner's who everybody from Quebec westwards don't really consider as real Canadians :D - as I keep telling my Newfie brother-in-law.

After still having Rob Ford as the Mayor of Toronto though I have to hang my head in shame on the international scene. The whole world must think we're idiots in Toronto for still having him as a Mayor. Oh well - great for the entertainment value. SNL, Colbert & Stewart never made me laugh so hard as I have in a long time with some of their Robbie Ford skits. Oh well enough political, non-knife talk. Back to serious chat about all the evil flippers and how every mule team must from henceforth be fitted with non-removable GPS trackers identifying each MT's original owners who will never be allowed to purchase another MT if their purchase is found to mysteriously stray too far away from their shipping address.

We've certainly had our share of buffoons in Alabama over the last hundred years or so. Thank God most of the world hasn't heard of our history... and as we say in Ala, "Thank God for Mississippi." (so we won't be the bottom state on the lists)

Peace out..........I'll see everybody on other threads (whenever I decide to engage in being social - rather than lurking). I think its time to stick a fork in this thread - after all the posts prior to Sal's response and his response itself - I think the horse is dead. Feel free to keep beating it without me......I'll go fondle my knives in private now.

Sorry, I wrote my last post before I saw that you had forked the thread :D

[gaj999]

Even at that price though, you're still spoiled for choice with nice carbon steel cutlery in that class that does come with handles.

Gotcha. Didn't get that, but I agree in principle. $40 for a 52100-class fixie of equivalent quality? I haven't seen that. I did pick up a nice O-1 necker with a burl handle and a sheath from a guy just starting out in the knife making business. Cost me less than a super steel Mule, but more than the 52100 Mule. But then it is in a steel that folks have been working with in their garages for decades ... it ain't K390 ...

I'm not trying to insult spyderco saying its bad value, but its certainly not "back up the truck" cheap either. I certainly hope spyderco, who pockets the entirety of that price unlike their MSRPs which are about double what I figure a good street price is, would be making some $$$ on these projects.

Typical retail markup is double the wholesale price, across a broad spectrum of products. There are some very high volume products in competitive markets that are marked up much less, but for things in the price range and volume of knives, no. That's a good rule of thumb number for what you need to make a decent profit long-term with a B&M store selling that class of product ... so I'd guess Spyderco's wholesale price to be half of MSRP. Another good rule of thumb for products like these is to set your wholesale price at double your production cost. That lets you pay for overhead and leaves you enough profit that you can stay in business, expand, etc. So how much the price would need to rise for Spyderco to make the same profit on a Mule as on their other knives depends on how they've calculated production cost for the Mules and whether they've loaded that cost to account for any of their overhead. If they've loaded it some, and I hope they have, it wouldn't need to double. If they're going out the door at factory cost, it probably would. We'll never know unless Sal tells us, and I expect that's proprietary information ...

Gordon

[The Mastiff]

Something we should keep in mind when just recommending to make larger numbers are 1) what Sal explained and 2) production time used for mules at almost no profit to the company could easily be diverted to production of regular scheduled products with a higher profit margin for Spyderco. To be honest at the mark up on the mules it's not worth their time to make large , time consuming runs of Mules. There is a reason some of us have stated it's more a favor to us knife knuts and steel guys than a business worth chasing for Spyderco. I'm still amazed and greatful every time a new mule is released. To be honest the program has surprised me from the beginning and I still wonder when it will stop. Every time Sal gets a rash of $#!+ from unhappy customers he has to question if it's worth it.

Just my opinion and I'm only trying to see it from Sal's position. I could be getting it all wrong. It wouldn't be the first time either I've done that. :)

[The Deacon]

Something we should keep in mind when just recommending to make larger numbers are 1) what Sal explained and 2) production time used for mules at almost no profit to the company could easily be diverted to production of regular scheduled products with a higher profit margin for Spyderco. To be honest at the mark up on the mules it's not worth their time to make large , time consuming runs of Mules. There is a reason some of us have stated it's more a favor to us knife knuts and steel guys than a business worth chasing for Spyderco. I'm still amazed and greatful every time a new mule is released. To be honest the program has surprised me from the beginning and I still wonder when it will stop. Every time Sal gets a rash of $#!+ from unhappy customers he has to question if it's worth it.

Just my opinion and I'm only trying to see it from Sal's position. I could be getting it all wrong. It wouldn't be the first time either I've done that. :)

FWIW Joe, from where I sit, you're 100% correct. I think Sal is sometimes too good to us, and that his starting this thread illustrates that. By any reasonable business logic, selling your entire production of any item in one day would be considered a cause for happiness, rather than concern. Doing so with a relatively low margin one should be cause for both relief and joy.

[v8r]

I remember the fiasco with the purple forum Natives. Many were sold on E-bay for a huge profit. I sold mine 2 years ago on E-bay as well. I put a buy it now price of what I actually paid for it directly from Spyderco. I see nothing wrong with selling extra knives as long as you are selling them and not taking advantage of Sal and the Spydercrews generosity. The Forum knives as well as the Mule project are in place to give forum members and fans something special at a greatly reduced price.
I feel the best solution is to limit 1 per customer as others have said. Others have said etch forum names in the blades which would be cool, but the added set up costs/expense just doesn't make sense. There is no way to police the people that are in it just for the profits. At least with a limit of one per customer you will cut the number available to the flippers in half.

Another thought is that if there was a way that the Spyderco computer system could some how generate a individualized code per purchase, it might cut down on the flippers. You would have to be a registered forum member of course and the number would only generate one time. Maybe it could be sent via PM?

[The Deacon]

Another thought is that if there was a way that the Spyderco computer system could some how generate a individualized code per purchase, it might cut down on the flippers. You would have to be a registered forum member of course and the number would only generate one time. Maybe it could be sent via PM?

It sounds good, and it might have worked to some degree back when Spyderco required a legitimate (ISP issued) email address, but given the ease with which one person can acquire multiple free email accounts and register here under multiple user names with them, it wouldn't really accomplish anything anymore.

[cckw]

To help balance out another injustice: Since left handed people are left out on all the new frame lock models it would only be right to give left handed customers first crack at mules and a limit of 5.

[JNewell]

I remember the fiasco with the purple forum Natives. Many were sold on E-bay for a huge profit. I sold mine 2 years ago on E-bay as well. I put a buy it now price of what I actually paid for it directly from Spyderco. I see nothing wrong with selling extra knives as long as you are selling them and not taking advantage of Sal and the Spydercrews generosity. The Forum knives as well as the Mule project are in place to give forum members and fans something special at a greatly reduced price.
I feel the best solution is to limit 1 per customer as others have said. Others have said etch forum names in the blades which would be cool, but the added set up costs/expense just doesn't make sense. There is no way to police the people that are in it just for the profits. At least with a limit of one per customer you will cut the number available to the flippers in half.
Another thought is that if there was a way that the Spyderco computer system could some how generate a individualized code per purchase, it might cut down on the flippers. You would have to be a registered forum member of course and the number would only generate one time. Maybe it could be sent via PM?

As has been explained several times above, a 1/customer limit will do nothing at all to stop speculators, but it will have a variety of adverse effects on people who play by the rules. It would probably also cause prices to spike even higher, due to legitimate demand for additional Mules from people who play by the rules and had good reasons for wanting a second Mule.

[bdblue]

for mules at almost no profit to the company

But do we know this?

1) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Para2 sprint sold through a dealer for $145 as the geen Para 2 was. There is some difference in the steel cost but the think about how many more parts are in the Para2, plus the assembly. Then think about how much Spyderco probably sells the Para2 to the dealer for.

2) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Becker BK11 sold through a dealer for $39. The BK11 requires similar manufacturing procedures, but uses much less expensive materials, plus there is markup in the $39, and it comes with a sheath.

In the case of the MT18 it didn't divert any production capacity since it was produced elsewhere. The facility that manufactured it might already have the capacity to manufacture all of the Gayle Bradleys that Spyderco can sell.

[The Deacon]

But do we know this?

1) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Para2 sprint sold through a dealer for $145 as the geen Para 2 was. There is some difference in the steel cost but the think about how many more parts are in the Para2, plus the assembly. Then think about how much Spyderco probably sells the Para2 to the dealer for.

2) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Becker BK11 sold through a dealer for $39. The BK11 requires similar manufacturing procedures, but uses much less expensive materials, plus there is markup in the $39, and it comes with a sheath.

In the case of the MT18 it didn't divert any production capacity since it was produced elsewhere. The facility that manufactured it might already have the capacity to manufacture all of the Gayle Bradleys that Spyderco can sell.

No, but considering that there's a learning curve with any new material, and sometimes even with an existing one used in a new way, I suspect that any profit made on saleable Mules has been offset, to some degree, by the waste that curve sometimes creates. There have been at least two Mules that Spyderco had to recall, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think there were others where a fair number of pieces had to be scrapped.

[JNewell]

No, but considering that there's a learning curve with any new material, and sometimes even with an existing one used in a new way, I suspect that any profit made on saleable Mules has been offset, to some degree, by the waste that curve sometimes creates. There have been at least two Mules that Spyderco had to recall, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think there were others where a fair number of pieces had to be scrapped.

I think that's got to be the case with most of the MT series. Many have been steels used for the first time by Spyderco. The cost in time and dollars to develop the know-how to deal with new steels - and mostly very high performance steels - must be considerable. It's simply not comparable to a $39 BK11.

[FCM415]

But do we know this?

1) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Para2 sprint sold through a dealer for $145 as the geen Para 2 was. There is some difference in the steel cost but the think about how many more parts are in the Para2, plus the assembly. Then think about how much Spyderco probably sells the Para2 to the dealer for.

2) Compare a mule sold directly for $90 with a Becker BK11 sold through a dealer for $39. The BK11 requires similar manufacturing procedures, but uses much less expensive materials, plus there is markup in the $39, and it comes with a sheath.

In the case of the MT18 it didn't divert any production capacity since it was produced elsewhere. The facility that manufactured it might already have the capacity to manufacture all of the Gayle Bradleys that Spyderco can sell.

How about the K390 that sold for $69 each? I recall many assumed that K390 will be the first to crack the $100 mark and some guessed for it to go as high as $120. NOPE. $69... Must have taken a good amount of time to grind such a steel AND cost alot on equipment like belts wearing out. Find me something in K390 for $100. $150. $200. $300. $350. Also consider what Paul and others input on this.

The Para2 is an existing product... You're pretty much paying for the upgrade in steel but the reseach tooling etc. is already there... For arguments sake after the steel investement, research on heat treat etc etc, man hours, and grinding of these exotic steels Spyderco possibly makes a few bucks on them. Big whoop. Then consider the hours spent by the SFO staff to sort through the orders in a manner that screens double orders. Now we wan to add even more man power to filter the customers.

S110v. $90. No room in golden and was shipped to Taiwan and shipped back. Most customer makers wont even touch these steels and if they do, its $500 plus.

[hiredgun]

Some thoughts after reading through this polarizing topic.

1. The day Spyderco starts serializing, then tracking, then policing who buys what and how much is the day they lose their cachet and they lose a customer (me). I'm amazed at the suggestion(s) of doing this to "control" the customers to include--flippers, fan boys, collectors, speculators, aficionados, knife hobbyists, etc. Geez, Spyderco is great because they really do care about their customers, but it gets to the point that some people demand being coddled and catered to.
2. I think companies or small businesses that produce something which in turn gets marketed, distributed, sold, resold again and again, and then goes up and up in value, WANT that to happen. It creates demand, interest, a following and continued business. Socialists and whiners be damned. That is the beauty of the free market.
3. For those of you who have to work during the day, yeah, maybe Spyderco can change the release time, but then again it will hurt the people who have to work at night then. (not to mention Spyderco staff would probably have to change their work shifts)
4. Here's an idea, if you want a particular Mule, Sprint or Exclusive, then make a plan how you can get one. Spend some time in the forums and find out when things are happening. Make some friends on the forum who seem to have no problem getting what they want and see if they will hook you up. As unsavvy and unsophisticated as I am, I still have been able to get pretty much whatever Mule, Sprint or Exclusive I've wanted barring personal financial barriers. If **I** can do it, then I know a lot of people out there complaining can do it too. It just takes a little more effort and work. Those two things, effort and work, make things in life so much more desirable. Things that are more desirable keep businesses like Spyderco thriving.
5. Making enough so everyone gets one at a really good price does not keep businesses in business nor does it contribute to driving future sales and innovation.
6. The way to stop flippers is to simply not pay the prices they are demanding. This is not food, energy, life essentials, etc. they are hoarding up. You can't let a few bad apples spoil future purchase opportunities for the rest of us.

Lastly, thank you Sal for even doing the Mule project. I hope the complainers and flippers don't dissuade you from continuing the project.