Delica ZDP-189 and Sharpmaker - I cant get it sharp, it will not take an edge =(

[SeattleDude]

I am having a very hard time getting a decent edge on Delica with ZDP-189 steel.

I dont know what is going on. It will not take a good edge.

I go through all the motions with both stones, both angles and still endup with bad edge.

I have used Sharpmaker with Awesome results on my other spydercos (PM2, Military, Endura, Stretch, Benchmades), but this little bugger will not take an edge.

I have watched all kinds of different videos on different sharpening tecniques with Sharpmaker.

Any others had an issue? any pointers anyone can offer?

[chuck_roxas45]

Try the sharpie trick to see where you are hitting. A loupe would also be a good investment.

[Cliff Stamp]

I dont know what is going on. It will not take a good edge.

Sharpening is an extremely simple process, there are only a few possibilities the most likely one is that you are not sharpening the edge at all.

Here is a very short over view with extremely basic equipment : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSt2mCWGFII

I go through all the motions with both stones, both angles and still endup with bad edge.

Here is the process :

-destress the edge
-use the 20 degree slots and the medium stones, grind until the knife until it apex
-switch to the fine stones (if desired)
-deburr and refine the edge

The second step is likely going to take a long time and can be sped up using a more coarse abrasive.

Once the knife is sharp then from that point on work the edge with the 15 degree setting on the medium stones for a few minutes each time you sharpen to add a relief bevel to the edge. This will increase the cutting ability and improve ease of sharpening with the 20 degree setting.

[ChapmanPreferred]

ZDP likes very light pressure. If you have been trying "too hard" as in a bit more pressure to try to muscle through it, you will likely have developed a burr which is a new challenge to remove. If you try using just enough pressure to feel the stones bite into the steel and increase your stroke count, I believe you will be able to have success. There are other burr removal methods out there but I would try much lighter pressure first. Sharpie trick to make certain you are apexing both bevels is a great suggestion and a loupe would add to the confirmation. My favorite loupe is sold by Lee Valley and has a strong light built right into the unit.

[Evil D]

I'm gonna bet that you're not hitting the very edge. Mark the bevel with a sharpie marker and make very light passes to see where the stone is hitting the edge. As far as ZDP goes, you can expect up front that it's going to take longer to show progress, because it's a VERY hard wear resistant steel.

[SeattleDude]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

[vinito]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

There are higher end sharpeners such as the Edge Pro Apex and the Wicked Edge, you can get amazing results with both, but they are extremely expensive.

[Rockcrawler]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

Sharpmaker can get any knife as sharp as anything, it just takes a bit of patience and some understanding. To roughly quote Sal, the loupe is an ultimate teacher. I highly recommend getting one.

This is what you need http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 3351,51092

ZDP is a pain in the hind to put an edge on, especially if it has gotten really dull, it really is hard. Another alternative is the diamond stones, though they still require patience if not more of it.

[ChapmanPreferred]

I would suggest getting the 204D diamond rods for the Sharpmaker. They gave me a 30-50% time savings over the gray/brown stones for resetting bevels and setting up angles for the Sharpmaker. I think the Spyderco Sharpmaker system is the most versital for being able to sharpen the widest gambet of tools when compared to other systems.

There are ways to sharpen a knife in a minute or less, but they involve either really thin steal (think of a traditional barbers shaving razor) or mechanically powered abrasives (bench grinder with appropriate wheels or belt sander/grinder). Two of the major issues with faster sharpening methods are that they mean you can very quickly wreck your knife if you make a bad pass or build up too much heat in a hurry which could negatively impact the temper of the steel and reduce performance of the knife.

[mikerestivo]

Yes - I will second the motion for diamond rods. I use these on my ZDP-189 Stretch and have no issues with touchups.

[Evil D]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

Like mentioned, there are sharpeners that can do more than the Sharpmaker, but don't blade the issue on the sharpener (no offense). This is an experience issue, not a lack of the proper tools.

I don't know how much experience you have, so forgive me if i'm spouting off at stuff you already know. What I think is happening is, you're not hitting the very edge of the blade, and so you're making pass after pass and not seeing any results. Also, if you've had good results with other knives and other steels, that could just be because you aren't used to dealing with a monster such as ZDP. This steel is extremely hard and takes more time to sharpen. It isn't "harder" to sharpen, it just takes more time and more strokes to get it there because it's so much harder/wear resistant than something like VG10. In exchange you get much longer edge retention, but everything comes at a price.

So, step one is to use a marker on the bevel. This way you can see where the Sharpmaker is taking off metal, as each pass will scratch off some of the marker. If you see that you aren't hitting the very edge, then that's why you aren't getting results. Also, even if you ARE hitting the edge, remember that even a very small amount of progress is going to take more work with this steel (unless you have a very aggressive cutting sharpener like diamond rods etc).

One tool that is absolutely a must have for sharpening is a jeweler's loupe. This will let you look right at the edge after every pass to see exactly what's happening stroke by stroke. If you wanna get serious about sharpening, this is where it all starts. http://www.amazon.com/SE-Triplet-Jewele ... B001BSGGQ2

[PatCatMan]

I had the same problem/same knife - then I decided to spend some time on the SM and now it is popping.
No quick fix or fast way - i've tried. Same deal with my Caly ZDP.
I made 30 light strokes per side - watching my straight up blade position to the angle - trying to stay as consistent as I could.
Just like Sal said - except 10 more per side -
30/30 on the Diamond edge
30/30 on the Diamond flat
30/30 on the Brown edge
30/30 on the Brown flat
same for Fine and UF rods

Now I can touch up on the UF's and it's great.
Maybe the angle from the factory was different or something - I don't know - but this worked for me.
I did it on the 40 and it's plenty sharp.
Plan to spend some time and Good Luck.

[Bladekeeper]

Admitting to being a noob with sharpening I found as somebody above mentioned I was putting force into my strokes after going again over the process, using the weight of the knife as the pressure it improved drastically still need to learn a lot more but its satisfying when it goes right.

[SeattleDude]

Thank you guys!

Ordered loupe and diamond spyderco stones.

[Holland]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

I bought the wicked edge system and i absolutely love it! well worth the money in my opinion, makes sharpening easy and fun

welcome to the forums!

[chuck_roxas45]

Thank you guys!

Ordered loupe and diamond spyderco stones.

You're on your way to the dark side. :)

[jackknifeh]

Is there a better equipment setup that I can buy to get better results than Sharpmaker.

Can you point me to a right thread or a list of equipment?

There are "other" sharpeners available. This is not going to help you with your ZDP issue however. People will tell you allte standard things like using a marker to be sure you are hitting the edge, etc. My guess is you already know this trick if you are getting your other knives sharp. I was doing the same thing when I got my first ZDP blade. Is this your first ZDP blade or hardest steel you've owned? I had a TERRIBLY HARD time getting my first and second ZDP blades sharp. Itwas extremely frustrating. I asked the same questions you ask and got the same answers. As with you all of the answers were correct and made sense. Didn't help my edge though.

The only thing that helped me was a suggestion from Ben Dale (Edge Pro inventor). Use a micro-bevel on ZDP and the harder steels. By doing this you are dealing with a much smaller area of steel. Sharpening a wide bevel is more difficult in regards to skill and experience than a small micro-bevel. By doing this my edge was immediately easier to get a razor edge on. So, using the Sharpmaker as an example set your bevel to 30 degrees and get it perfect but don't worry about your edge being razor sharp. Then use the 40 degree setting and use light strokes with the med. stone until you can easily slice paper. Refine the edge with the fine stones using light pressure. This helped me immediately.

Why did this help me? Because even though I was a proficient sharpener the harder steels require a little better "touch" and accuracy. So because of my inexperience I was forced to "cheat" by using the micro-bevel. With more practice and experience ZDP will suddenly*be easy to get razor sharp. I had a hard time believing all this but it worked and I just couldn't argue with success. Micro-bevels aren't "cheating" I use a micro-bevel on about every knife I sharpen. It's just that I didn't NEED a micro-bevel to get any other steel sharp.

If you are still having problems, take a break for a couple of days. If you keep working and grinding away at your Delica you may be wasting a lot of steel.

Good luck. You are not the first (BY FAR) who has had this delima. :)



Jack

[SeattleDude]

Thank you Jack, Thank you guys.

You are right =) this is my first zdp plade and it got me frustrated to the point that I just wanted to trade or sell it =)

but I will give it another try with Diamond stones and more patience =)

[jackknifeh]

Thank you Jack, Thank you guys.

You are right =) this is my first zdp plade and it got me frustrated to the point that I just wanted to trade or sell it =)

but I will give it another try with Diamond stones and more patience =)

If you use diamond stones I suggest you use fine grit stones. The coarser ones will remove more steel than you want to remove "as practice". If you are sure you are hitting the edge, personally, I think you should stick with the Spyderco fine grit stones. They are completely capable of getting the edge razor sharp. If you are hitting the edge AND using good technique your knife will get VERY sharp. If the problem is your technique you definately don't want to work on your blade with diamond stones IMO. I'm assuming you have the FFG blade and not the saber grind. If you remove a lot of steel from the saber grind the blade behind the edge will become very thick. The FFG blade also, just not as much. If it sounds like I am overly concerned about removing too much steel from a nice knife it's because I have done that. Not to the point that the knife was no good but enough to tell the difference from when it was new. It can happen faster than you think, especially if you use diamond stones. They are GREAT stones IMO. The coarser ones are good for reprofiling when you want to remove a lot of steel but in this situation I would not use anything coarser than extra-fine if you are using DMT stones. That's what I'm used to.

Right now, today, is your primary goal to get the knife sharp or to master sharpening ZDP? If getting it sharp quickly is the primary goal you may want to consider letting someone else sharpen it who has more experience with ZDP. Spyderco will do it if you give them $5 to cover return shipping. There are guys here who would help also I'm sure. I'd do it but I charge $500 for return shipping. Shipping is expensive when shipping from Florida. :D Seriously, I'd help any way I can.

If your main concern is being able to keep your knife sharp yourself (the better goal) I think the micro-bevel is the way to go, at least for now. Actually, I NEVER sharpen ZDP without a micro-bevel. I keep the back bevel low to improve cutting and the micro-bevel makes touch ups easy and quick as well as keeping the very edge stronger and less likely to develope micro-chips.

If you decide to give the knife away out of frustration PM me and I'll give you my address. :D :D :D
Jack

[Evil D]

Thank you Jack, Thank you guys.

You are right =) this is my first zdp plade and it got me frustrated to the point that I just wanted to trade or sell it =)

but I will give it another try with Diamond stones and more patience =)

I've said many times that my ZDP Caly 3 made me a better sharpener. Don't let it defeat you. You will learn more from this encounter than you would from sharpening 10 VG10 knives. Once you master the high end stuff, you'll be putting stupid sharp edges on everything with very little effort.