Saber vs Flat Grind: Which is better?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I was examining my Spyderco Endura with the saber grind and it really appeals to me for cutting chores, feel in the hand, and cosmetic looks. What do others here think? Which is the most practical and the best cosmetically, saber or flat grind or hollow grind?

[Invective]

ME personally, it depends on the shape of the blade what type of grind I prefer. On leaf-blades and spear-points, basically symmetrical shaped blades I prefer FFG, it just looks better in my opinion. Blades I have that I like the FFG on are the Caly3.5, Endura, and Cat. I like hollow grinds on most other types of blades though, although I find their uses to be most accentuated on wharncliffs and other straight-edged blades, or even mostly straight with a slight belly on the end. I absolutely adore the HG on my Yojimbo2, my Jester G10, and Captain.

[Blerv]

It mainly comes down to tip strength. For most slicing duties and empathetic users a Full-flat is perfectly durable.

[Cliff Stamp]

The way to understand the fundamentals is to look at the cross section :

a) sabre grind is a partial height grind, used when :

-cutting is so shallow (binding wise) that the thicker stock near the spine has no drawback
-the thickness is fixed and can not increase and you need more strength than you can get with a full height grind

b) full flat should be your neutral reference point, compare everything to that

c) a hollow grind removes material from the flat grind

-used when you don't need the strength of a flat grind and want to reduce weight and decrease wedging

Now again point (b) is the critical one, you need to be clear what you are comparing and ensure that everything else is equal. For example the grind on a typical Mora is a sabre grind, but it can out cut many flat ground blades, why? The final apex angle is so small that the difference there actually is larger than the difference in the primary grinds and so what you end up seeing dominate is just the edge angle ratio which is often 2:1 or more so when you take a Mora to a piece of wood it can out cut a flat ground blade by 2:1, again just due to the edge angle.

However if you compare a Mora against a full flat ground blade which has a 10 degree apex bevel (the common Mora angle) then you are right back to the above and you can see the difference in the primary grind and realize the versatility and gain in performance of a fuller grind on thicker stock (better strength/durability and superior cutting ability at the same weight).

[xceptnl]

I like FFG for its performance with improvised kitchen duties. I use my knives largely for slicing cheese, potatoes, onions and other veggies when in the kitchen. I often need to slice cardboard and other rigid materials as well and the FFG seems to reduce the friction the most. I certainly agree that the trade off is a point that isn't nearly as acute as the HG blades like my std. Manix 2 or Native.

[Gunslinger]

I love the Saber grind on the Enduras better then the ffg. The ffg will no doubt slice better, but the saber grind blade is stonger and has a tuff tip and will still cut.
IMO it looks nicer too.

[Bill1170]

Aesthetics are a matter of personal preference and are always up to the individual. How a particular blade profile performs all depends on what you are cutting and how you are doing the cutting.

A half height saber grind, thick behind the edge, is a good choice for durability (resistance to breakage of tip, chipping big pieces from edge, etc) where large impacts and/or lateral loads will be encountered. Stock Endura saber ground is a good example. Many machetes and all utility knife blades use this geometry because, as Cliff said, they are very thin to begin with, so full thickness is needed nearly to the edge.

Full flat or high saber grind (almost full flat) is a good choice for cutting thicker materials where the blade has to wedge apart stiff media like carrots or cardboard. Most decent kitchen knives are full flat ground. Thinner behind the edge ups performance at the cost of durability. Ritter Grip and FFG Endura are good examples in folders.

Hollow grinds can be very thin behind the edge while retaining lateral rigidity and tip strength due to thicker spine. These are well suited to cutting soft media, like flesh (Yojimbo 2) or whiskers (straight razor) or more flesh (skinning knives). They also work well when the media is thin so it doesn't need to clear the spine of the blade. They are more prone to edge chipping because they have less material to resist lateral forces at the edge and immediately behind it.

[kennethsime]

FFG. Done. :p

[JudasD]

I like both. :D

JD

[Evil D]

It's pretty much how Cliff put it. There are so many variables to consider, you have to start with the exact same knife with the different grinds to even get a fair comparison. With that said, I also think the common pro and con for both grinds, that being tip thickness, could be corrected with a simple change in the distal taper. I've been saying this about wharnies for years. If they just reduce how much taper is put into the grind then the tip would be thicker, while leaving the FFG largely unchanged so slicing performance would be the same. The main benefit of a saber grind is overall strength and tip thickness but IMO strength in the tip is the primary gain so if the taper was reduced this would be corrected and the tip would be stronger. The original Yojimbo is a prime example of this. If it wasn't tapered so much the tip wouldn't be so fragile. For me most slicing happens from the middle back on the blade so having less taper wouldn't effect slicing.

[Holland]

as far as looks are concerned, i think ffg looks the best, ffg will definitely cut better as well. the only drawback is the much thinner tip on ffg knives. but for my cutting chores the delicate tip is more useful then anything

[Pockets]

I like all three. I think FFG and very high saber and hollow grinds look the best.

[Evil D]

as far as looks are concerned, i think ffg looks the best, ffg will definitely cut better as well. the only drawback is the much thinner tip on ffg knives. but for my cutting chores the delicate tip is more useful then anything

Again, this is only going to be true on a model by model basis. Would you wager $100 that your FFG Para 2 slices better than my hollow grind Centofante 4? I may not have the flat sides but my blade stock is only 2mm thick vs. your 4mm thick. Which do you think will have less overall resistance when cutting through cardboard? Which do you think is thinner behind the edge?

But yeah, as far as two Enduras, the FFG will cut better than the saber version.

[Blerv]

Again, this is only going to be true on a model by model basis. Would you wager $100 that your FFG Para 2 slices better than my hollow grind Centofante 4? I may not have the flat sides but my blade stock is only 2mm thick vs. your 4mm thick. Which do you think will have less overall resistance when cutting through cardboard? Which do you think is thinner behind the edge?

But yeah, as far as two Enduras, the FFG will cut better than the saber version.

Furthermore a well executed (theoretical) Hollow-ground Para2 *should* slice better to the mid-spine point than the current full-flat grind version.

I think for many applications the hollow-grind done well is superior. Less behind-the-edge drag, easier to sharpen, easier to maintain a durable tip, a bit cheaper to make. Unless you are trying to cut through very dense material I'll take a sharper edge to a better wedge.

[shimage]

Again, this is only going to be true on a model by model basis. Would you wager $100 that your FFG Para 2 slices better than my hollow grind Centofante 4? I may not have the flat sides but my blade stock is only 2mm thick vs. your 4mm thick. Which do you think will have less overall resistance when cutting through cardboard? Which do you think is thinner behind the edge?

But yeah, as far as two Enduras, the FFG will cut better than the saber version.

It depends on the material you are cutting (is it thick? is it stiff?), as well as the thickness behind the edge. A priori, there is no reason to assume that the Centofante is thinner behind the edge than the PM2. Of the knives I own, the one that is ground thinnest behind the edge is a forged gyuto with a 4mm thick spine. It's not the greatest on thick stiff things like potatoes, but it does surprisingly well on anything else. That said, I suppose it would be weird to put a delicate thin grind on a knife that is supposed to be a robust as the PM2.

As for the enduras (FFG and saber), you shouldn't necessarily assume the thickness behind the edge will be the same. There is probably a better chance of that happening with knives that similar, but there is sample-to-sample variation in grinds even within a single sku so it's not something I would take for granted.

[Blerv]

A priori, there is no reason to assume that the Centofante is thinner behind the edge than the PM2.

Comparing two factory knives from the same maker one is hollow-ground and 2mm, the other is full-flat ground and 3.5mm. Perhaps my logic is flawed but that seems pretty obvious in favor of the Cento.

[Cliff Stamp]

Of the knives I own, the one that is ground thinnest behind the edge is a forged gyuto with a 4mm thick spine

That in its most reduced form is the biggest problem with misconceptions about geometry. A lot of people would take that knife and conclude it cuts well because :

-it is forged
-it is convex/flat ground
-it is sharpened "japanese style"

When the reason it cuts as well as it does on shallow work is exactly as you have noted - the cross section is reducing opposing forces on the blade, and in most cases that translates to "is thin in the critical area".

One of the most extreme blades I have is a huge cleaver from Aranyik which is 1.5 kg, almost 1/2" thick at the spine, but yet has a fairly high convex grind which only reaches 18 dps in the final apex. It thus can do shallow cutting better than 20 dps folders and on very heavy cutting the splitting action is so prominent that it can break apart carrots etc. fairly dramatically.

[JD Spydo]

ME personally, it depends on the shape of the blade what type of grind I prefer. On leaf-blades and spear-points, basically symmetrical shaped blades I prefer FFG, it just looks better in my opinion. Blades I have that I like the FFG on are the Caly3.5, Endura, and Cat. I like hollow grinds on most other types of blades though, although I find their uses to be most accentuated on wharncliffs and other straight-edged blades, or even mostly straight with a slight belly on the end. I absolutely adore the HG on my Yojimbo2, my Jester G10, and Captain.

I'm on the same page as "Invective" and I agree with everything he said. My favorite fixed blade knife is the older Spyderco Temperance 1 which is a full flat grind. I like FFG on many blades but not all cutlery is suited for that type of grind. I also agree with him concerning the C-111 Captain model which is a "hollow grind" blade and I couldn't imagine it being anything else.

Overall it depends on the blade design and blade geometry. And like Cliff said it's a stronger knife overall with a full flat grind most of the time. I've never had any chipping problems or any other kinds of failures in performance on any of my Spyderco knives with the full flat grind. I wish they would bring back the Temp 1 fixed blade in H-1 steel. I know it's an old model but it's the one they modeled the incredible Temperance 2 model after.

Now on Hawkbills I do like hollow grind blades the best. On my Harpy and Spyderhawk a hollow grind simply facilitates more agressive performance when you need it the most for the type of cutting you do with a hawkbill blade. Like I say it just depends on the type of knife design you have. I find nothing wrong with a sabre grind on certain models even though it's not really one of my favorites. It depends on what works for you the individual the best. There is something special about most of Spyderco's full flat grind models and it goes back to the C-54 big Calypso model. I believe many of the full flat grind models are inspired by that model to be sure.

[gaj999]

Looks? Full flat grind. Cutting? High hollow grind. Opening paint cans? Saber grind. :D

Gordon

[shimage]

Comparing two factory knives from the same maker one is hollow-ground and 2mm, the other is full-flat ground and 3.5mm. Perhaps my logic is flawed but that seems pretty obvious in favor of the Cento.

From the same maker? One is made in Seki, the other is made in Golden. I already gave an example of why blade stock thickness is not terribly relevant, but if you don't like it, there's Cliff's example above, and I remember reading some posts from the Deacon somewhere (before he got his chaparral) that his thinnest-behind-the-edge Spyderco was a Caly3 (3mm blade stock). I am actually kind of bummed about that because my Caly 3.5 is not particularly thin behind the edge (>0.02"), which is why I made the other point about there being variation from one sample to the next even within a single sku.