Just bought my first Spyderco, very disappointed in the Caly3...

[nathan310]

I personally am tired of lockbacks. Vertical bladeplay is irritating to me. Spyderco please start using more different locks on your knives! Maybe CBL, Framelocks or even Linerlocks. I don't care as long as it doesn't have any kind of play. I know next will be some guy saying " I love backlocks they're great!" but I find it irritati g to be doing heavy cutting and the blade moves.

[Fred Sanford]

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I thought the pivot screw was Torx not Allen.

It's peanut butter jelly time.

[ABX2011]

I think the vertical bladeplay is inherent to the lockback. There's slight vertical bladeplay on all of my Spyderco lockbacks. That said I have a Cold Steel Lawman with a Tri-Ad lock which is like a modified lockback. It has no bladeplay.
Aside from the bladeplay, the lockback seems like a good design to me. There's a strong force keeping the blade closed which you don't always get with the liner/frame lock.
The ball lock on my Manix 2 is difficult to disengage.
Benchmade's Axis Lock is pretty nice.

[Bluntrauma]

Sorry about your luck with the Caly III. I have 3 of them and just checked them all and no play with any.

[rodloos]

I've got to say, I've always heard so many positive comments about the Caly 3, this is the first time I've heard so much about inherent blade play in the Spyderco lockbacks.

I certainly don't have any blade play in my Spyderhawk, ladybug, forum Native, or Native 3 VG10 lockbacks. My Native 3 was actually so stiff opening I was considering sending it in to see if it could be adjusted, but I put a few drops of 3-in-1 oil on the pivot and cycled it open/closed about a thousand times, it is workable now but still stiffer than my others, but it is a VERY solid lockup - absolutely no blade play sideways or vertically, and was a heck of a deal at the closeout pricing.

[D1omedes]

I'd just like to chime in here for a second. All of you who have stated that there has been vertical blade play in your Spyderco knives - what direction did the blade move?

My Spydie lockbacks only allow the blade to move up (very slightly). I believe this is a design to reduce the pressure on the lockbar and extend the life of the knife. I've never, NEVER had the blade move down, toward my fingers. Have any of you?

[Ben_1323]

I'd just like to chime in here for a second. All of you who have stated that there has been vertical blade play in your Spyderco knives - what direction did the blade move?

My Spydie lockbacks only allow the blade to move up (very slightly). I believe this is a design to reduce the pressure on the lockbar and extend the life of the knife. I've never, NEVER had the blade move down, toward my fingers. Have any of you?

For me, it's just been up, not down.

I personally am tired of lockbacks. Vertical bladeplay is irritating to me. Spyderco please start using more different locks on your knives! Maybe CBL, Framelocks or even Linerlocks. I don't care as long as it doesn't have any kind of play. I know next will be some guy saying " I love backlocks they're great!" but I find it irritati g to be doing heavy cutting and the blade moves.

Agreed. I'd like to see the BBL or CBBL become the most prevalent Spyderco lock; they are fantastic designs. The compression lock as well. But I understand these locks are more difficult to design and manufacture than the back lock.

[ABX2011]

My Spydie lockbacks only allow the blade to move up (very slightly).

Me too

[npueppke]

I'd just like to chime in here for a second. All of you who have stated that there has been vertical blade play in your Spyderco knives - what direction did the blade move?

My Spydie lockbacks only allow the blade to move up (very slightly). I believe this is a design to reduce the pressure on the lockbar and extend the life of the knife. I've never, NEVER had the blade move down, toward my fingers. Have any of you?

Mine has always only been up too, and it's also not a very "sloppy" play.. it's got a very solid, predictable feeling to it. It feels much different than the side to side play you see in knives sometimes.

[Pneumothorax]

Time for late reply...been out of town.

Nautilus, you've heard all things possible about the Caly 3 and blade play - even testimonials - yes, my Caly 3 is solid. This means nothing to you. The one thing I would say is - send it back and give Spyderco the chance to make it right and buy another Spydie. My first experience last year was with a really strong spring on my Dragonfly lockback. I wasnt happy, but customer service/warranty & repair (Charlynn) made it right for me. Now, Im deeply addicted. These really are great knives and a great company.

Now its time for som PBJ. :D

[vampyrewolf]

20 years of knives, 11 of spyderco, 6 of customs. Just a bit of experience here.

Liner locks will always exhibit some horizontal movement, though vertical should not exist if the liner and tang are properly mated. Often you'll simply have an angle cut on both that allows lockup around 30-40%, though the better ones will use an arc on the tang and lockup around 10-15% (the ouside of the liner will be even with the edge of the tang or just inside). To allow vertical movement that means that linear force along the blade is putting a perpendicular force on the liner to move it out of the way. Forces required to do this by hand are fairly high (not saying it can't be done, but should not be encountered normally). Failing a spine-whack means that the 2 planes were not mated fully/properly. Horizontal movement simply moves the tang and liner as one unit if properly done, 4" blade with 2mm is within tolerances.

Lock back knives wil always exhibit some vertical movement to allow for proper mating on the tang and lockbar. To reduce wear on both surfaces, the properly made ones will have a slight inward angle on the lockbar for clearance. The tang will still be cut at 90deg, even if the lockbar is cut at 80deg. This means that as the blade is pushed up, the lockbar itself is moving and pressing against the spring. When it's moved down the faces will meet. To prevent the other surfaces seperating, a tightly manufactured lockbar will have the reverse happening on the pivot end. The tang surface tilts in, with the lockbar surface tilted very slightly in. This means that if the outer faces meet that the same force is spread along the entire pivot and lockbar.
Some horizontal movement is allowed as a tightly machined lockback is a higher wearing mechanism than a tightly machined linerlock. This allows for thicker bushings and better flow for lube.
The issue with the blade closing through negative force is also well addressed with a heavier spring and deeper lock well.



So, recieving a lock back with movement on all 4 planes is allowed, it's just a question of what's moving and how much. 2mm in any direction is well within tolerances on a production knife. A lot of people are concerned with the lockbar lifting slightly when force is applied down into a cut, but this is also within tolerances and actually designed in. If there is excessive movement it usually means there is an issue with the pivot not holding the surfaces where they are designed to mate.
With a rivited pivot this takes fine adjustment with a hammer or press to fix and is best left to experienced people.

With an adjustable pivot, the task is usually simply to unscrew the pivot, flush out the remaining locktite off both surfaces, place a SMALL amount of blue (locktite 242, tool strength, red bottle) back on and tighten till you meet resistance, then give it a SLIGHT turn. Cycle the knife open and closed a couple times to ensure it moves smoothly. Tighten further to remove excessive play, loosen if rough. Then leave the knife to sit 12hrs to cure (24hrs+ is ideal). Lube and go.

If you can't loosen off the pivot, either apply a heatgun to the area or a soldering iron with a tip sized to fit inside the screw head. With G-10 in this case, the only risk is the bushings and phosphor-bronze has a fairly high heat resistance.

[nautilus]

Thanks everyone for the overwhelming amount of feedback, I haven't touched the knife since I started this thread and I'm still a little up in the air as to what to do.
I really love the esthetic elegance and the cam feature of a lockback knife and would love to have one because of these things but there seems to be some discrepancy amongst you all regarding the solid lockup of your lockback knives.

It seems like about half of you are saying I have X# of Spyderco lockbacks and NONE of them exhibit any play.

The other half is saying that all of your lockbacks have play and that this is normal and inherent in the design (spyderco customer service seemed to mirror this response).

To me there isn't any acceptable amount of vertical play in a knife, so should I return the caly 3 and purchase a Spyderco with a different locking mechanism?

Or is there a decent chance that Spyderco will be able to set me up with a Caly 3 that has no noticeable vertical play? (ideal)

I love the ergonomics and size of the caly 3, so if I were to pick something else I would like to find a knife that's similar.

Do Spyderco's slipits have vertical blade play?

If not, I'm thinking that the urban or UKPK would make a good substitute unless there is something similar with a solid locking mechanism?

[npueppke]

So, recieving a lock back with movement on all 4 planes is allowed, it's just a question of what's moving and how much. 2mm in any direction is well within tolerances on a production knife.

I agree with your points.. any folding pocket knife will have 'some' wiggle just because there is a tolerance for how tightly the pivot fits inside of the pivot hole, etc, but I'm curious where are you coming up with this 2mm number? At the tip of the blade? Or did you mean .2mm. No knife I've ever owned had that much play unless it was broken... the most play I've seen anywhere has been significantly less than .5mm. On the stretch, for instance, the vertical movement is barely visible and can only really be detected by feel... I'd say maybe .1mm measured at the tang. The horizontal deflection might be up to 1-2mm at the tip, but at the tang it's probably still under .5mm. I'm pretty sure my Caly 3 was the same way as far as amount of blade play is concerned.

[npueppke]

Thanks everyone for the overwhelming amount of feedback, I haven't touched the knife since I started this thread and I'm still a little up in the air as to what to do.
I really love the esthetic elegance and the cam feature of a lockback knife and would love to have one because of these things but there seems to be some discrepancy amongst you all regarding the solid lockup of your lockback knives.

It seems like about half of you are saying I have X# of Spyderco lockbacks and NONE of them exhibit any play.

The other half is saying that all of your lockbacks have play and that this is normal and inherent in the design (spyderco customer service seemed to mirror this response).

To me there isn't any acceptable amount of vertical play in a knife, so should I return the caly 3 and purchase a Spyderco with a different locking mechanism?

Or is there a decent chance that Spyderco will be able to set me up with a Caly 3 that has no noticeable vertical play? (ideal)

I love the ergonomics and size of the caly 3, so if I were to pick something else I would like to find a knife that's similar.

Do Spyderco's slipits have vertical blade play?

If not, I'm thinking that the urban or UKPK would make a good substitute unless there is something similar with a solid locking mechanism?

If you want to experience the least amount of blade play possible, you should look into a ball bearing lock knife. Vertical blade play is guaranteed to be zero. There might be a very slight amount of horizontal play, but you can fix that by sanding down the pivot bushing... I think it was vashhash that did this to his Manix2. These locks have as close to no play as it gets.

[Ben_1323]

Thanks everyone for the overwhelming amount of feedback, I haven't touched the knife since I started this thread and I'm still a little up in the air as to what to do.
I really love the esthetic elegance and the cam feature of a lockback knife and would love to have one because of these things but there seems to be some discrepancy amongst you all regarding the solid lockup of your lockback knives.

It seems like about half of you are saying I have X# of Spyderco lockbacks and NONE of them exhibit any play.

The other half is saying that all of your lockbacks have play and that this is normal and inherent in the design (spyderco customer service seemed to mirror this response).

To me there isn't any acceptable amount of vertical play in a knife, so should I return the caly 3 and purchase a Spyderco with a different locking mechanism?

Or is there a decent chance that Spyderco will be able to set me up with a Caly 3 that has no noticeable vertical play? (ideal)

I love the ergonomics and size of the caly 3, so if I were to pick something else I would like to find a knife that's similar.

Do Spyderco's slipits have vertical blade play?

If not, I'm thinking that the urban or UKPK would make a good substitute unless there is something similar with a solid locking mechanism?

I'm pretty sure it's normal for a Spyderco lockback to have a little vertical play. I read that they're engineered that way in order to reduce wear. I agree with you though, I can't stand any play in my knives, so that's why I don't buy lockbacks anymore. If I were you, I would look into the ball bearing lock. In my opinion, it is one of the best locks ever made for a folding knife. No movement whatsoever. The only problem is, there isn't a very good variety of models with the ball bearing lock right now.

[Zenith]

Lockbacks that have play in them are safe, it has been found that some lockbacks with vertical play hold up better under pressure with those that have no play.

nautilus
If you do not want any blade play what so ever in a pocket knife every time, then you are going to have to spend much more money on knives. Example: XM-18 Hinderer, Sebenza, hand made knives etc that run from 400$ upwards. (Granted you can get hand made knives for 150$ that have no play, but they are in low quantities and the maker deals with them hands on all the time, so not in essence a production knife IMO)

Or just get a fix blade.

For me, blade play is when you hold a knife by the handle and you shake it and you hear the blade move. That is blade play. "Forceable play" is the only thing I have experienced in any spyderco, where I have to take the blade and push it up or down and you actually moving the lock, stop pin, to achieve this.

[markg]

Liner/Framelock (RIL)/Ball Bearing Locks/Compression Locks should have little to no vertical blade play.

In my experience, the back locks made in Golden have little to no blade play (eg. Chinook, and Orginal Manix).

[vampyrewolf]

I agree with your points.. any folding pocket knife will have 'some' wiggle just because there is a tolerance for how tightly the pivot fits inside of the pivot hole, etc, but I'm curious where are you coming up with this 2mm number? At the tip of the blade? Or did you mean .2mm. No knife I've ever owned had that much play unless it was broken... the most play I've seen anywhere has been significantly less than .5mm. On the stretch, for instance, the vertical movement is barely visible and can only really be detected by feel... I'd say maybe .1mm measured at the tang. The horizontal deflection might be up to 1-2mm at the tip, but at the tang it's probably still under .5mm. I'm pretty sure my Caly 3 was the same way as far as amount of blade play is concerned.

Remember, I am by no means an expert in these matters. If I'm wrong on something I fully expect (and appreciate) someone jumping in.

Movement is measured at the tip, assuming a 3 or 4" blade on 3mm steel. Lock the handle tight in a vice get a gauge by it and start flexing with your hand. You will be able to move 99% of the folding knives out there in at least 1 primary plane.

Any time there are machined surfaces there are tolerances to consider. How much is required for smooth operation or low wear is left to the engineer and task at hand. Spyderco does a decent job at it, allowing knives that are 20 years old to still function with moving parts (I've got one of the early rescues still, '92 or '93 model)). I have slipjoints dating back 75 years, and it's hard to find one older than about 20 years without being loose.

The only spyderco knives I have come across with very little play in any direction have been ball bearing locks, compression locks, and the 1st gen chinook. I haven't gotten my hands on one of the slipjoints long enough to test. As pointed out above me, the Golden spydie have very tight tolerances. Both of my military's have been solid.

I've been abusing a stainless dragonfly for 8 years now, have play in 3 planes (closing direction is still solid). I'm abusing it till it breaks, and then I've got a spare waiting. This has been done through prying, pushing, using as a hammer, snap cutting, flicking open, twisting, excessive force into a cut... just about anything that'd make a warranty dept laugh at the prospect of replacing it. I'm not concerned at all about the amount of play on it. Simply because I can get 1mm in 3 planes (on a 2" blade) with my hands, doesn't mean it's weak or loose.

[STi]

Mine had play too and tried to tighten and stripped the head slightly and it still had play...I then removed the screw and took out all the loctite and re tighten and the side to side play was gone and minimal axis lock play...The hex slot is alittle stripped and can't get a screw from Spyderco but atleast that awfull side to side play is gone!

[Blerv]

there seems to be some discrepancy amongst you all regarding the solid lockup of your lockback knives.

It seems like about half of you are saying I have X# of Spyderco lockbacks and NONE of them exhibit any play.

Or everyone defines "play" within different values. It's not a very specific word having no inherrent true values (eg: 3 plays = 3 mm's).

The other half is saying that all of your lockbacks have play and that this is normal and inherent in the design (spyderco customer service seemed to mirror this response).

To me there isn't any acceptable amount of vertical play in a knife, so should I return the caly 3 and purchase a Spyderco with a different locking mechanism?

Yes you would be much better with a caged ball lock or anything with a positive stop. My liner locks have no vertical "play". A Manix2 is a VERY robust knife and exhibits nil play in any direction unless you consider being able to vibrate a blade as play.

You could also look at a Sage or Sage 2 which looks quite similar to a caly3 except has no back lock inherent mannerisms. I'm sure you can find a side-by-side pic somewhere here.

If not, I'm thinking that the urban or UKPK would make a good substitute unless there is something similar with a solid locking mechanism?

Here's an old lock thread from 2001 that addresses lock strength of the various offerings at the time (no ball bearing or caged ball bearing lock):

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... k+strength

Sal mentions at the time the Calypso Jr. which is the precursor to the Caly3 had a lock rating of 100 lbs/inch of blade length and beat out a specific name brand's "strongest lock". This means that in theory you could put a 300 pound person on the blade spine with a chance it would not fail.

My only point is this is NOT industry standard. Play does not always indicate weakness, in fact it often increases strength (brick building vs steel beamed building in an earthquake, etc).

Sometimes this movement gives me squeamish feelings. However, this is simply my lack of knowledge to the inherent strength or ability of the design. As consumers this is acceptable as we did not design the product and our fingers are at stake :) . This is why a lowered Miata on race tires at 80 mph is terrifying and a stock Chrysler Town & Country minivan is comfortable...yet one is a rolling death wagon incapable of performing.

I think we also tend to forget that a lock is really only designed to save the user from closings and pivot has to balance smoothness/ease of opening with lack of play. You can increase rigidity without sacrificing either but it usually comes at the price of physical mass (ex: Chinook, Manix, etc). These back locks are tanks of a world class level (give/take 800 lbs of lock strength).

My FRN Delica4 Wave is a beater knife and has a ton of wiggle (because I don't care enough to fix it). However, a sharp knife always cuts easier with a little bit of sawing so you can avoid this sensation in most cases. A VERY sharp knife like a Caly3 ZDP doesn't require much torque on the pivot all to cut if used in this manner (think of it less like a wood chisel and more like a scalpel).

I would go back to the dealer with your concerns and see if they have a Spyderco liner lock of some type which you can manipulate. Not everyone is a back-lock fan and that's ok. The Caly3 and Stretch are amazing blades but some would prefer the Paramilitary, Manix, etc. Different strokes for different folks (or locks in this case).

Good luck!



PS:

I've been abusing a stainless dragonfly for 8 years now, have play in 3 planes (closing direction is still solid). I'm abusing it till it breaks, and then I've got a spare waiting. This has been done through prying, pushing, using as a hammer, snap cutting, flicking open, twisting, excessive force into a cut... just about anything that'd make a warranty dept laugh at the prospect of replacing it. I'm not concerned at all about the amount of play on it. Simply because I can get 1mm in 3 planes (on a 2" blade) with my hands, doesn't mean it's weak or loose.

Good for you. =)