How much cheaper means "made in China"?

[huugh]

Hi Sal,
if it is not a secret :) would you care to share how much price difference is there for "made in China" knife?

Not taking into consideration availabilty of certain steels etc., how much cheaper would be something like e.g. Military, being made to exactly same specifics and materials?

[JspyEDC]

I'm not Sal and I know NOTHING about knife manufacturing, but I look at your question this way..

Mini-Manix: G-10 scales, Boye Dent, steel liners, S30V steel, MSRP $199.95

Tenacious: G-10 scales, Linerlock, steel liners, 8Cr13MoV steel, MSRP $49.95

Different lock, different steel, similar feel and aesthetics.....interesting cost differential.

[sal]

Hi Huugh,

Prices vary as the value of the currency varies.

But "generally" speaking:

USA = 1
Japan = 1
Europe = 1 plus 20 - 25%
Taiwan = 1 less 25 - 30%
China = 1 less 65 - 75%

This is just a rough average all things being equal, at this time.

The level of quality that can be achieved in each country also varies. We can reach a level of fit & finish quality with some Seki makers that is not possible elsewhere at this time.

sal

[WhyNot]

Hi Huugh,

Prices vary as the value of the currency varies.

But "generally" speaking:

USA = 1
Japan = 1
Europe = 1 plus 20 - 25%
Taiwan = 1 less 25 - 30%
China = 1 less 65 - 75%

This is just a rough average all things being equal, at this time.

The level of quality that can be achieved in each country also varies. We can reach a level of fit & finish quality with some Seki makers that is not possible elsewhere at this time.

sal

I've never seen such a direct answer to a such a delicate question!
Thank you, Sal!
WhyNot

[huugh]

Thanks a lot.

What I had mind was that maybe there would be market for "high end" model made in China (i.e. keeping the price "low", if the price is 30% of US made knife then it means that $350 knife would cost $105).
This could bring interesting (affordable) options, like e.g. damascus models with "expensive" handle materials or models with Sebenza-like tolerances etc.

But with your last sentence this idea got serious cracks...

[dedguy]

I've never seen such a direct answer to a such a delicate question!
Thank you, Sal!
WhyNot

Yeah I did NOT expect an answer.

[Fred Sanford]

Wow, thanks for the answer Sal. I also didn't expect an answer. Thanks for being so honest and sharing stuff with us that we don't really deserve to know. :)

So that means roughly, if they were to make a Military or Para-Military in China that it would be about $124 (street price) - 65% ($80) = $44. :eek:

Plus....the value of the American dollar is now less than a Canadian dollar and is decreasing. Not good folks.

[flyguy]

I'm impressed to see that an answer was giving to this question.

The answer is a little scary, coming from an American point of view. Didn't know it was quite that big a difference.

Do the Chinese makers have high end steels available to them?

[sal]

Obviously, as an American, you should, if possible, buy American products. It's better for our economy and our future.

To assume that a Military can be made in China to Golden standards is not a logical conclusion.

There are many quality issues and your level of "expertise" in making production knives is critically important. False conclusions are easy to reach. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Perian srping".

I would "guess" that the Yuan will eventually get stronger and the "temporary" advantage of the China currency imbalance will change. The US dollar is also bouncing around so we're talking about moving targets.

When we first began making knives in Seki, we went there for quality (1000 years of sword making), not for price. The low Yen was an advantage, but the stigmas of "Japan manufacture" was something that had to be dealt with, just like current China stigma's. the Seki maker's skill was and is exceptional.

We will endavor to bring you the best designs we can create, with the best materials and build quality we can find, at a fair price that is relative to the cost of manufacture.

sal

[dedguy]

What I like about Spyderco is that from my perspective you seem like a company who takes pride in their product. What that means to me is that you make money so you can make your product. You don't make your product to make money.

[Slick]

I want to note here that there are other considerations when dealing China. Years ago I worked for a company that among other things manufactured compact discs. Mainland china was a hotbed of piracy and bootlegged IP.

My company formed a joint venture with a Chinese government company to produce CDs for the Asian market. Months later it turned out our partner would run legal product as needed but then run zillions of pirated CDs when nobody else was around. It was a good opportunity since they had the genuine source material just setting there on its servers. They didn't have to "steal" the source material, we gave it to them! They probably produced more bootlegs than licensed product.

Keep an eye on them...

[Agent Starling]

I want to note here that there are other considerations when dealing China. Years ago I worked for a company that among other things manufactured compact discs. Mainland china was a hotbed of piracy and bootlegged IP.

My company formed a joint venture with a Chinese government company to produce CDs for the Asian market. Months later it turned out our partner would run legal product as needed but then run zillions of pirated CDs when nobody else was around. It was a good opportunity since they had the genuine source material just setting there on its servers. They didn't have to "steal" the source material, we gave it to them! They probably produced more bootlegs than licensed product.

Keep an eye on them...

good point...I wonder if that cancels out part of the "survival benefit to the company" from the reduced manufacturing costs... :rolleyes:

[quattrokid73]

Sal, maybe you can help me with this question:

Why does the Caly 3 say "Japan" and not "Seki City"?

Thanks!

[sal]

Sal, maybe you can help me with this question:

Why does the Caly 3 say "Japan" and not "Seki City"?

Thanks!

maker's request.

sal

[eljay]

I spent a little bit of time writing software used to manufacture some electronics gear (mostly testing the device once it was done) and there's definitely some interesting tradeoffs you can make. The more manufacturing you have in an area, the more skilled people you get at all levels, and the more options open up to you. But of course wages rise and they can basically price themselves out of the market of what they used to make. We made things in the US, Japan, Thailand, and China... pretty much in that order of quality/cost.

It's not always an obvious business decision as to which country makes sense - sometimes the cheaper supplier gives you a lot of headaches. You have to keep a really careful eye on them or some bozo will decide to switch materials on you to save a few cents. But generally speaking the higher the volume the more it's worth the headache of dealing with the cheap labor countries.

[Simona]

Hi Huugh,

Prices vary as the value of the currency varies.

But "generally" speaking:

USA = 1
Japan = 1
Europe = 1 plus 20 - 25%
Taiwan = 1 less 25 - 30%
China = 1 less 65 - 75%

This is just a rough average all things being equal, at this time.

The level of quality that can be achieved in each country also varies. We can reach a level of fit & finish quality with some Seki makers that is not possible elsewhere at this time.

sal

I thought so...

but i do not understand following:
If, for example Levi´s cost 100usd time ago (Made in USA + superb quality of material)
why
now
cost the same Made in China or Vietnam 120usd and quality is 40%(maybe 50) lower.

Result of all is, that time ago was big fight in the shop and now they say, we have not Levi´s because nobody do not want vietnamese junk..
It´s globalization, what all are screaming for???

[sal]

Hi Simona,

The rates that I outlined are based on the exchange rates of the currency. They do not take into account the distribution chain.

Distributors and dealers will be in the middle and their costs also affect ELU prices. As for prices, it could be that the distribution chain has changed. On quality, perhaps the buyers controlling the manufacturing are not the same people that controlled manufacture of the USA made product?

I can't speak for other companies and how they do business. We are somewhat unique in some of our business practices.

sal

[Brad S.]

Sal,

How many different Seki makers are do you use? Its seems that there are a few I guess I always assumed it was just one.

As well, how do YOU think the Golden made Spydercos compare to Seki. I'm sure its a "both good, but different" type thing. But really I'm curious if you think one is finer than the other, or if you prefer one over the other.

Just as a note. I love both Seki and Golden models equally, no real preference. I also am very impressed with the China models they are extremely good for the price.

[Simona]

Hi Simona,

The rates that I outlined are based on the exchange rates of the currency. They do not take into account the distribution chain. Distributors and dealers will be in the middle and their costs also affect ELU prices. It could be that the distribution chain has changed.

sal

Hello Mr.Glesser,

i understand, but distributors and dealers says, that they have so low % from sales, that is better way stop sale this product from US, because lot of work, papers and result is 12-15% only from sale price.
They rather sale product from Italy (globally speaking about clothing) because they have 25-30% from final shop price.

Speaking about knives, this is another way,no official distributors, knives cost 300% price of US,because they are going to somewhere and buy all from some ELU shop in Germany or Austria or etc. for euros (not from distributor, simply not from you)

When will be exist official distributor, who buy product for now very low dollar and -- dealers with advised prices, Military will not cost 300usd, but 130 (with fees like custom duty,etc.) and sale will grow automatically with rocket rate.
But situation is now what i described.

If you will have central european dealer for all EU, all ELU´s shops must buy from him, because 300usd Military and etc. -it´s valid for all your products, will be unsaleable over night...

[sal]

Sal,

How many different Seki makers are do you use? Its seems that there are a few I guess I always assumed it was just one.

As well, how do YOU think the Golden made Spydercos compare to Seki. I'm sure its a "both good, but different" type thing. But really I'm curious if you think one is finer than the other, or if you prefer one over the other.

Just as a note. I love both Seki and Golden models equally, no real preference. I also am very impressed with the China models they are extremely good for the price.

Hi Brad,

We currently use 3 makers in Seki. One is just a small shop, the other two are larger. Each has their specialty, each has their limitations. In general, I think the polishing and finishing of our makers in Seki are the best in the world. That's why we can't "just make a Caly3" in China. The skill isn't there at this time.

Our Golden plant is better at the high tech stuff. CNC's, etc.

Japan has a variety of foundries making very exotic steels. The US has fewer.

In 800 AD, the swordmakers of Japan migrated to the Gifu mountain range. There was good iron content in the soil. The Nagara & Kiso rivers offered good water, the breezes were constant. They made swords in the area for the next 1200 years. They still do. The area eventually became Seki City.

We can argue cars and TV's all day long, but they were making very sophisiticated Katana's long before much of the world.

sal