Upping the price.

[Jack48]

I feel that I got good value for what I paid for my Spydercos. I'd rather have a couple knives from a company like Spyderco than a drawer full of Chinese made flash in the pan designs.

This exactly! I have no need for a large collection of knives that do fundamentally the same thing. I need a few good tools that work at as high a level as possible. I am definitely a quality over quantity sort of guy, especially when it comes to life's most fundamental and necessary tool.

FFG can be nice if you want a super slicey knife. However let’s be realistic, most people aren’t using their knives very often, and probably not for tasks where they’re going to notice the advantage of a FFG.

Some people also tend to do things with knives that they really shouldn’t. FFG is probably the worst at holding up to that kind of use, especially with a big hole in the blade.

I don't know about "most people" but I can say that I realistically benefit from my knife working efficiently and I do use it on a regular basis for things that I need to get done. I think this is perhaps why many of the real Spyderco "users" like their knives so much, because they are made to get things done. I think these are the people that Spyderco has most in mind with their designs, and I think they cater to "users" more than any other company.

And all I can say if someone wants to use a knife as a prybar is that that is their problem I suppose. Their are plenty of overbuilt knives to choose from if that is a preference, but I don't understand prying things with knives in general, not in small part due to safety concerns.

Again that is all for my own use, everybody's needs and preferences are different, but I think I represent exactly the kind of person Spyderco is trying to build for. The knife "user."

Personally I don’t have a set knife budget, and I certainly don’t need to buy more knives. For me it’s not about quantity vs quality, it’s about wanting to get good value for my money. If I see a knife I like and I think the price is reasonable for what I’m getting I’ll buy it. I’ve bought fairly expensive knives like Protechs, I’ve bought $30 Chinese brand knives because I thought it was an interesting design or had fancy materials like carbon fiber and I can use it as a loaner, gift, or cheap beater.

Almost $200, or even getting close to $300 for the Shaman, for S30V and G10 is where Spyderco is losing me these days.

I also reach for different knives for different uses. Sometimes I may reach for the $30 beater, sometimes I may reach for a Spyderco, sometimes I may reach for a built like a tank Cold Steel.

Catering to let’s say hardcore users was the point. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that shouldn’t mean they can’t offer more options to other potential customers. Those hardcore users are likely a fairly small minority of people buying or thinking about buying their knives.

Let’s take the typical construction worker for example. Some of them are buying a PM2 or Shaman, but the vast majority are not buying a $200+ knife to get beat up and potentially lost or stolen on a construction site. Most are buying a $30-$50 knife, maybe $100 at most. If they do buy a $200 knife it’s their “fancy” knife that they try to keep in good shape.

Many people are looking for different things than what some might consider fairly basic user designs when spending $200+ on a knife. That’s why other brands offer options.

Why not bring back the old saber grinds as an option on the more popular models? A tanto Para 3 or other popular models with different blade shapes is something that comes up pretty often on other forums and Reddit, why not offer a tanto or reverse tanto version of some popular models? The Taichung models are almost entirely satin or polished blades, the few exclusives that were done in TiCN blades are highly sought after on the secondary market. Why not offer TiCN or stonewash as an option on popular models like the Sage and Smock?

As prices keep doing up the amount of people willing to pay those prices for a purely utilitarian user knife is going to keep shrinking.

[sal]

Hi Apollo,

Thanx for your understanding. FYI, the Frame-lock Tenacious was all Eric, as were the Crucarta Manixes.


sal

[Scandi Grind]

Personally I don’t have a set knife budget, and I certainly don’t need to buy more knives. For me it’s not about quantity vs quality, it’s about wanting to get good value for my money. If I see a knife I like and I think the price is reasonable for what I’m getting I’ll buy it. I’ve bought fairly expensive knives like Protechs, I’ve bought $30 Chinese brand knives because I thought it was an interesting design or had fancy materials like carbon fiber and I can use it as a loaner, gift, or cheap beater.

That's certainly fair. I personally value Chinese made products much less than those made in most any other country, not because of bad build quality, but because I believe buying less expensive Chinese products is going to hurt my country more than help myself in the long run, and I value U.S. made products above all because I am supporting my home economy and local craftsmanship.

I also reach for different knives for different uses. Sometimes I may reach for the $30 beater, sometimes I may reach for a Spyderco, sometimes I may reach for a built like a tank Cold Steel.

Catering to let’s say hardcore users was the point. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that shouldn’t mean they can’t offer more options to other potential customers. Those hardcore users are likely a fairly small minority of people buying or thinking about buying their knives.

Let’s take the typical construction worker for example. Some of them are buying a PM2 or Shaman, but the vast majority are not buying a $200+ knife to get beat up and potentially lost or stolen on a construction site. Most are buying a $30-$50 knife, maybe $100 at most. If they do buy a $200 knife it’s their “fancy” knife that they try to keep in good shape.

As prices keep doing up the amount of people willing to pay those prices for a purely utilitarian user knife is going to keep shrinking.

I can definitely see wanting the cheap beater knife as an option, that is something that I think Chinese options are often good for, although the proliferation of bearings often has me avoiding many of the cheap options if the knife is likely to get dirty. Maybe bearings aren't more of a problem in dirty environments though? I'll admit I have never used one in such an environment, but it seems like they are more likely to get gunked up in the pivot.

I guess most Chinese brands don't feel like they were designed to be used for outdoor work for example. So despite the fact that their price point and build quality are good for the price, and the fact that they fit into a budget that won't make you afraid to beat up on it, I was a little hesitant about the idea of using a Civivi Elementum as a camping folder, even though I really love look and shape of the knife overall. I guess it mostly comes down to the bearings again. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has tried using a knife with bearings in a semi-dirty or dirty environment whether the bearings are any sort of problem.

[Jack48]

I don’t think there’s much point in debating FFG pros and cons. It’s simply the standard. There are HG blades out there but they are much, much less common.

Flat grinds are much more common than hollow grinds. Many flat ground knives are not full flat grinds. The sheepsfoot Benchmade Griptilian, as well as a decent amount of the Spydercos that involved an outside designer are saber grinds or at least start the grind below or after the thumb hole.

Many knives from other brands have some sort of saber grind, or at least keep the spine thick for most or all of the length, have a swedge and keep part of the blade thick, etc. Having a true full flat grind while also starting to narrow the spine right at or near the ricasso or continuously narrowing the spine to a very thin tip is pretty uncommon outside of Spyderco.

[TkoK83Spy]

I've been following this thread since inception, but refrained from commenting...

I'll start by saying I dislike paying more for any product as much as the next guy. Unfortunately we have to acknowledge the cost increases throughout the value-chain. From where I'm sitting, many of these contributing factors seem to be outside of Spyderco's control.

I do not care for the low cost Chinese-made knives, be it from Spyderco or any other brand. The main reasons are the lack of high-end steels and heat treatments.

On the other hand, many of Spyderco's models manufactured in the US and Japan are on the bleeding edge in this regard for mass-produced knives. Where else would we go for properly heat treated super steels like K390, Rex-45, Cruwear, Maxamet, 4V, 15V, S90V etc? Innovation in handling high-end and hard-to-work-with materials cost money. Most other manufacturers would not touch these steels with a barge pole, and for good reason. I am glad Spyderco is brave enough to bring them to market.

I am not buying as many as I used to, but I appreciate Spyderco's commitment to running a solid business based on their values, and I will continue to support excellence where I can, even though I hate to pay more.

Well said Hans, couldn't agree more

[zhyla]

I can definitely see wanting the cheap beater knife as an option, that is something that I think Chinese options are often good for, although the proliferation of bearings often has me avoiding many of the cheap options if the knife is likely to get dirty. Maybe bearings aren't more of a problem in dirty environments though? I'll admit I have never used one in such an environment, but it seems like they are more likely to get gunked up in the pivot.

The caged bearings are essentially open bearings so any fine dirt or liquid can get in there. Folders in general aren’t great for mud, blood, etc. I’ve got a brand new knife with bearings and looking at it I think muddy water or really fine sand would definitely get in there. But it’s also something you can clean out.

I guess most Chinese brands don't feel like they were designed to be used for outdoor work for example.

There’s definitely an aspect where the really nice brands today got their start competing with the high end $400 USA made mid techs. They obviously won that battle, but that lineage means there’s a lot more gents knife DNA than work knife.

And perhaps less unnecessary focus on “hard use” folders where a fixed blade is more appropriate. I can’t count how many times I’ve responded to a “which folding knife” query with either “axe” or “machete”. But certainly the knife in my pocket is far too thin behind the edge and full of crevices to replace my Manix 2 on an adventure.

[sal]

"User" tools are not necessarily "hard use" tools. Most of our models are not designed for "Hard use" though they'll hold up surprisingly well if pushed.

sal

[zhyla]

Ok here's the other knife that stood out as I was searching the current state of inexpensive but good knives. It's a Miguron Moyarl, crossbar (Axis) lock version. 14C28N blade, micarta scales, titanium clip. $70 street price.







0.016" behind the edge. Centering is perfect. The edge is identically sharp and slicey as the Nightshade I posted earlier in this thread. I would not be surprised if they came from the same factory. The micarta is ever so slightly contoured and quite rough. The titanium clip is quite nice. Might be the first Ti clip I've had. I much prefer this style clip to the bent steel clips on most budget knives. Spyderco's spoon/hourglass clips are so, so, so much better than clips on most knives. Heavily skeletonized liners, not just some holes drilled out but true skeletonization. I see mostly the back side of the scales in there.

The action is really perfect. The thumbhole opening is the best I've had on a non-Spyderco. Actually I think I prefer the feel of this thumbhole to Spyderco's but it would not work on a non-bearing knife where you need a little more force. I'm not referring to the shape but to the smooth chamfers around the hole.

There's only one blight on this knife is the cross bar lock. Opening is perfection but closing is just a little rough. I oiled the crossbar and that helped a bit. But due to what looks like some excessive clearance between the crossbar studs and the liners if you use just the thumb to close the bar angles and binds slightly, which makes it feel stiff. If you use thumb and finger as intended it is quite smooth and actually very clicky at the end where the lock forces the blade to finish closing. So it's good, it works fine, but it is very clearly a mid range knife in this regard.

In terms of design and soul, the blade shape is classic and the whole design is rather understated. Ergos are quite decent. I imagine if Spyderco had done this design they would drop the tip down a bit and more of a leaf style blade, which I would prefer. Does it have soul? In some ways it reminds me of a larger Brouwer but with less classy materials.

I would love to pay Spyderco $100 for a similar knife. Could they work with this factory and make something for $100? The quality I'm seeing in this knife is on par with what I've seen from Taichung.

[zhyla]

"User" tools are not necessarily "hard use" tools. Most of our models are not designed for "Hard use" though they'll hold up surprisingly well if pushed.

sal

Yeah, I hear you. I probably should have said "user", but even though all my knives are users there's some I am inclined to subject to outdoor problem solving (my Manix 2's and Tenacious SE are my main choices) whereas others not so much.

[chronovore]

Again, no offense, but to me you guys sound a bit as if it was a given that actually most customers want deep carry clips...

I have a feeling (also just that, a feeling of course!) though that there is rather a "loud" minority who advocates for the "trendy" deep carry and a more silent large share that is completely happy with the great, regular Spyderco clip and sees its advantages (to be clear: There ARE also advavntages to deep carry, not saying that this is just and nothing but a "trend"!)

Switching to deep carry would just shift the "problem": I for example would immediately have to search for and switch to regular carry clips for Spydies starting with Delica size and larger if they came with deep carry.

Makes sense in a way: A compact handle shows its virtues not so much in use (there compact rather is a con), but in transportation/carry in pocket.
Deep carry counters that, makes the knife longer in pocket. Think for example of the lately discussed small and short pockets in many womens pants...

Also, things like "proud clip screw heads" don't matter much when the clip is NOT loop over...

While I don't know that most customers want deep carry clips, it's a safe bet that lots of customers either want a deep-carry clip or at least don't want a particularly shallow carry clip. It also seems to me that the number is growing.

There may be a deeper discussion of trends here. Consisder that there is still a dedicated crowd in favor of assisted action. Personally, I used to love it. I came into it at a time when good manual action was expensive or uncommon. Now that great manual action is cheaply and widely available, my old assisted knives seem pretty janky when I go back to them. I certainly wouldn't buy a new knife with that feature. Lots of people in the EDC community seem to feel the same way.

Now, that's probably not a fair comparison but the reason we're discussing the clip issue here in the first place is in exploring why the sales of some of the Chinese models were "soft".

I think it's a mistake to take Larrins numbers as gospel.

One steel having a 3 in edge holding and another having a 4 in edge holding does not mean every company using those steels are going to heat treat them exactly the same as Larrins test pieces, and it does not mean every end user is going to replicate those specific numbers.

I can think of many times my real life experience has contradicted his charts.

You are right. Larrin seems like a great guy and has made a lot of great contributions. His ratings are generally a better comparison than some other "charts" I've seen over the years. Like I pointed out previously though, they are based on a particular type of testing under particular conditions with particular heat treatments, etc.. Especially when talking budget knives, a big issue can be the typical heat treatment a steel gets versus what kind of heat treatment it can be given. For instance, there have been performance issues such as Chinese D2 not living up to expectations or M390 getting run softer than what would be optimal for good edge retention.

There is also the issue I raised previously, wherein 8Cr13Mov is capable of the same total edge life as 14C28N or Nitro-V but the latter two tend to show better quality over the course of that lifespan. So no, those numbers aren't gospel. Still, I'm glad to have them.

[Wartstein]

That's my cousin Gernot We pay him to say that.

sal

... payment on top of the ten free Golden Spydies I get per year for saying what I say, right ?!

Give us a picture of the 10 of 2023 or it didnt happen...

Ok, you got me...

I am so much a Seki guy that I probably did not even own more then ten Golden Spydies overall over the course of time
(From the top of my head: Three Manix LW three Natives, one Chief, one PM2, one Millie... though I most likely can't recall one or two more right now).

EDIT:...And a Para 3 LW, that makes it ten "Goldens" at least ...

[weeping minora]

Ok here's the other knife that stood out as I was searching the current state of inexpensive but good knives. It's a Miguron Moyarl, crossbar (Axis) lock version. 14C28N blade, micarta scales, titanium clip. $70 street price.







0.016" behind the edge. Centering is perfect. The edge is identically sharp and slicey as the Nightshade I posted earlier in this thread. I would not be surprised if they came from the same factory. The micarta is ever so slightly contoured and quite rough. The titanium clip is quite nice. Might be the first Ti clip I've had. I much prefer this style clip to the bent steel clips on most budget knives. Spyderco's spoon/hourglass clips are so, so, so much better than clips on most knives. Heavily skeletonized liners, not just some holes drilled out but true skeletonization. I see mostly the back side of the scales in there.

The action is really perfect. The thumbhole opening is the best I've had on a non-Spyderco. Actually I think I prefer the feel of this thumbhole to Spyderco's but it would not work on a non-bearing knife where you need a little more force. I'm not referring to the shape but to the smooth chamfers around the hole.

There's only one blight on this knife is the cross bar lock. Opening is perfection but closing is just a little rough. I oiled the crossbar and that helped a bit. But due to what looks like some excessive clearance between the crossbar studs and the liners if you use just the thumb to close the bar angles and binds slightly, which makes it feel stiff. If you use thumb and finger as intended it is quite smooth and actually very clicky at the end where the lock forces the blade to finish closing. So it's good, it works fine, but it is very clearly a mid range knife in this regard.

In terms of design and soul, the blade shape is classic and the whole design is rather understated. Ergos are quite decent. I imagine if Spyderco had done this design they would drop the tip down a bit and more of a leaf style blade, which I would prefer. Does it have soul? In some ways it reminds me of a larger Brouwer but with less classy materials.

I would love to pay Spyderco $100 for a similar knife. Could they work with this factory and make something for $100? The quality I'm seeing in this knife is on par with what I've seen from Taichung.

I don't want to sound crass, but it looks like you've found your market for quality budget knives, outside of Spyderco?

sal has mentioned that Spyderco does not design knives to fit a "price". It seems as though this corner of the market (quality and cost effective/budget friendly knives) has already been cornered by China, or the companies who place a great value of their investment towards their product being manufactured by these quality Chinese manufacturers.

The Tenacious is already nearing $70, with "inferior materials and fit-and-finish". It seems less-than-likely that Spyderco would be willing to compete themselves out of working with their current Chinese makers, by choosing to link with the maker from the knife posted above, supposing the "superior" knives fall amongst a very similar-to-current, proposed pricing structure. That sounds like an overtly detrimental long-term business decision, and betrays Spyderco's company loyalty that they've built amongst the very selective makers that they do choose to work with (regardless the CoO).

Regarding changes in "budget" steel; sal has mentioned that he has had a hard time in getting Sandvik (now Alleima) to comply with his requests for their steels, which is most likely why we still see 8cr, or BD1/N being imported to their China-made models (and now CPM M4 at a premium cost). As with the cost of BD1N, I'm not sure we'd see that much (if any) cost savings for them to work with Nitro-V as a substitute, either. I really only see Eric paving the way in "hot rodding" their Chinese-made models, via introducing more super steels to their Chinese makers, which would only be "upping the price". This would be more of the "Spyderco Way".

As Gernot (and I'm sure others) stated, following the herd isn't really Spyderco-y by nature. I feel for your ask however, and perhaps the future will ultimately grant your wishes, as it appears as though Eric has been paying more attention to working with the makers in China. Maybe he can work with their current makers to up the materials and keep the cost effectively and reasonably competitive? I'm sure Spyderco will try and do their best to satisfy, but unfortunately that oftentimes seems to become a detriment per their consumers wants, versus the reality of cost, and what consumers believe that cost should be.

[sal]

Hey Zhyla,

I appreciate what you re trying to say, though I would appreciate that you don't promote competitive Chinese made knives on the Spyderco forum.

I believe your thinking is the same kind of thinking that has caused most manufacturers all over the world to make their product in China....less work and more profit. That's the trap. Low cost high quality is the bait.

I don't think that there is any question that Chinese makers can make good quality. They make tanks and jets. They've put people in space. I don't consider it fair competition for them to have such a low value Yuan. But trying to change that in World Trade is above my pay grade. We make some knives in China to try to service the budget market. It is not something that we plan to feed and grow, as you are suggesting. We work with a number of makers in China and we believe them to be good folks. And they will improve with time.

Like most manufacturers, we will do our best to compete with China, and most of our business will come from others that don't want to bow to Chinese manufacturing.

sal

[chronovore]

Hey Sal,

You had previously revealed that Spyderco put time, effort, and resources into training Sanrenmu to make products for you. I've looked at products they make, including for other companies such as Boker, Ruike, and Real Steel. They do some decently made knives in 14C28N at extremely competitive prices. So we know the steel is already in their supply chain. It is a relatively inexpensive steel that is not expensive to process. It remains one of the most desirable budget steels. So why isn't Spyderco availing themselves of this resource to make Chinese models in 14C28N?

[cabfrank]

Did Sal actually name Sanrenmu as a maker? I didn't know specifics like that were mentioned, even if some seem to be open secrets.

[sal]

Hi Chronovore,

We've not had a chance to test 14C. We're currently testing 19C. We generally don't do much with steels under .8 carbon for blades.

sal

[kennbr34]

So... Since this thread has attracted so much attention from the man himself, I have a question. It's not a loaded question except in the sense I personally prefer one model to the other...

Why is a Shaman $100 more than a Manix 2?

[Michal O]

I have mentioned before about soul and that fact we know Sal and Eric, meanwhile you can't say a lot about CEO of Chinese brands I have in collection. Their employees from China, or USA, rather are animators on Facebook and YouTube, and they only present you new things or passing forward people ideas and opinions to higher authority. It feels different when you can talk online or on meetings with big guys who have started company.

There is also thing I've noticed. Even if Chinese knives have good geometry and thin edges, better fit and finish, they lack often two things.

Plenty of them are lookers - design and material of the handle is more important than ergonomy. They're not bad, but not as good as Spyderco designs from Sal or Eric. Some lines looking very good on pictures are not that great in hand. I'm also tired of 3D titanium pocket clips, unless they're done like Gavko High-fin. Meanwhile Spyderco are often called ugly but many people change their mind after having knife in hand and using it.

Another thing is heat treatment. Chinese use mostly 20cv these days in premium models, treated at 58-60 hrc in most cases. Sometimes they use also S35VN or elmax but 20cv/m390 is for them most premium steel they can get. Budget line has more wide "palette" of steels. 58-60 hrc is a little bit low for many. Like they assume, that fact of having in knife premium steel is already enough and you can heat treat it as any budget steel. Spyderco is doing great job with heat treatment and has very wide choice of steels in comparison. Also the know when use which steel in design. Chinese use 20cv in edc knives and "tactical" or heavy use knives without any reflection.

But I have to admit, some Chinese brands have great customer service. You need some parts, because they did it wrong or you lost it, and they provide it to you for free or small fee. In comparison you probably still can get screws from Spyderco for Golden models, but in other case you need to send knife 5000 miles on your cost. But if they can afford to provide knives in good prices because yuan value, it's no brainer that they can afford such customer service.

[chronovore]

Did Sal actually name Sanrenmu as a maker? I didn't know specifics like that were mentioned, even if some seem to be open secrets.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=53076&start=20

[chronovore]

Hi Chronovore,

We've not had a chance to test 14C. We're currently testing 19C. We generally don't do much with steels under .8 carbon for blades.

sal

Thanks for the quick reply. Coming at it from a carbon perspective, I can see why you passed over 14C28N.

It might not be a champion on edge retention but it's far better than the number suggests. It's also one of the toughest stainless blade steels (and very stainless too). It is easy to sharpen, strops up nicely, and feels better over the life of its edge versus AUS-8 or 8Cr13Mov. Larrin has some pretty nice things to say about it if I recall correctly. Overall, there is a reason lots of people consider it "the best budget steel".

While I don't know that Sanrenmu always runs it as hard as they should, I'm sure they could with a little guidance. I've had a lot of knives in 14C28N over the years and it seems best around 60HRC. Even if a little softer though, it's a solid upgrade from 8Cr13Mov at the same hardness levels. Just saying, since you already have an OEM that uses it in abundance, why not do a test run?

Seriously, just tell them a guy on the internet keeps bugging you about it.