Getting Full Value from Your Blade Length

[kennethsime]

[...]
and while I'm stoked on the Bodacious design, one thing that immediately stuck out to me in the catalog was the lack of a fully-sharpened edge
[...]

I would not bet on the representation in the catalog.
Not sure, if it's still the case, but there was a time, when the number of teeth and the serration pattern of the UKPK in the catalog differed from the pattern of the real knife.
In general the photos seem a little edited. Maybe the sharpened part really is this short, maybe not. We will see.

I had the same observation - I think a fair number of these photos are photoshopped.

I hope the genuine article has a fully-sharpened edge!

[Wallach]

I don't particularly care if a knife has a sharpening choil or not, I just care that if you are going to put one on the blade, you put it on there properly. There are way too many blades with "sharpening choils" that basically sit entirely behind the plunge grind, even though they aren't at all finger choils. Really makes you wonder sometimes.

[kriezek]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck is a sharpening choil?

I know where the choil is on a knife. And I am aware of a finger choil, usually with jimping. But when ya'll are referencing a sharpening choil, are you specifying the blunt choil section between the sharp edge and the handle? And if so, why do you call it the sharpening choil? Thank you for your edification.

[kennethsime]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck is a sharpening choil?

I know where the choil is on a knife. And I am aware of a finger choil, usually with jimping. But when ya'll are referencing a sharpening choil, are you specifying the blunt choil section between the sharp edge and the handle? And if so, why do you call it the sharpening choil? Thank you for your edification.

Here's a good example from KnivesPlus:



I think the idea is that you can "fully sharpen" the edge, but it makes a really inconvenient little notch which gets hung up on cardboard etc.

I much prefer Spyderco's approach to a "fully sharpened" edge.

[vivi]

with the right equipment sharpening the one on the right is not difficult at all.

[JD Spydo]

I've been EDCing my M390 Military model as my main EDC for quite a long time now ( 5 years +). As I said in my previous post that I rarely use the entire blade on that folder. But it's there if I do happen to need it. And I love the control I get with the longer handle of the C-36 Military model. I've got 3 Para2 models and I've thought deeply about using one of them as my main EDC.

Now on my C-60 Cruwear Ayoob which also has a long blade. I do find myself using the entire blade on that C-60 Ayoob more than I do with most other blades I use. Especially on the serrated version. So blade design is a factor to be sure.

Also when I owned and used a Chinook III model I found myself using most of the blade on that model as well. Especially when it comes to field dressing wild game. My point being that I could get by with a shorter blade if I had to. The Para2 might be close to being a perfect EDC blade the more I think about it.

[sal]

I guess you are assuming equal sharpness, but that is an essential variable. A sharp smaller blade will out cut a larger dull one.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

I saw an idea to have the sharpening choil actually be a single serrated grove. It would let you hook onto cardboard or what not you are cutting and give you some extra leverage.

[kriezek]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck is a sharpening choil?

I know where the choil is on a knife. And I am aware of a finger choil, usually with jimping. But when ya'll are referencing a sharpening choil, are you specifying the blunt choil section between the sharp edge and the handle? And if so, why do you call it the sharpening choil? Thank you for your edification.

Here's a good example from KnivesPlus:



I think the idea is that you can "fully sharpen" the edge, but it makes a really inconvenient little notch which gets hung up on cardboard etc.

I much prefer Spyderco's approach to a "fully sharpened" edge.

Thank you for the explanation. I have seen those on a couple of my older knives, but not any recent ones. I much prefer not having them. Thanks again.

[Bill1170]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the heck is a sharpening choil?

I know where the choil is on a knife. And I am aware of a finger choil, usually with jimping. But when ya'll are referencing a sharpening choil, are you specifying the blunt choil section between the sharp edge and the handle? And if so, why do you call it the sharpening choil? Thank you for your edification.

Here's a good example from KnivesPlus:



I think the idea is that you can "fully sharpen" the edge, but it makes a really inconvenient little notch which gets hung up on cardboard etc.

I much prefer Spyderco's approach to a "fully sharpened" edge.

In a different thread someone mentioned a great idea for those who want the advantages of a sharpening choil without the problem of snagging. Instead of a blunt arched cutout, instead make a single serration scallop at the heel of the edge. That way, media that falls into the notch gets cut instead of merely snagged.

Then one could use a guided sharpener for the main edge and a round ceramic rod to maintain the notch.

Edited to add: I should have read the whole thread! William Munny said the same thing earlier.

[ladybug93]

i don't think i saw anyone mention the yojumbo, but it has the same blade length as cutting edge. it's one of the few spydercos that offer that spec.

another one i didn't see mentioned is the astute. the astute is the only spyderco i've ever handled that feels like it has more edge than it does handle.


i know a lot of people like to talk about handle size to blade ratio, but that's really not something that i care about, generally. i want a comfortable handle with a useful blade length that is legal to carry. and sometimes i'll choose a unique design over all of that just for the joy found in the design.

[StuntZombie]

i don't think i saw anyone mention the yojumbo, but it has the same blade length as cutting edge. it's one of the few spydercos that offer that spec.

another one i didn't see mentioned is the astute. the astute is the only spyderco i've ever handled that feels like it has more edge than it does handle.


i know a lot of people like to talk about handle size to blade ratio, but that's really not something that i care about, generally. i want a comfortable handle with a useful blade length that is legal to carry. and sometimes i'll choose a unique design over all of that just for the joy found in the design.

I still say it was a mistake to introduce the Astute in the value line. That design deserves better.

[Wartstein]

.....

...
I think the idea is that you can "fully sharpen" the edge, but it makes a really inconvenient little notch which gets hung up on cardboard etc.

I much prefer Spyderco's approach to a "fully sharpened" edge.

Perhaps it is me who is missing something, but as always I have to say :

- Let´s say you have an 80 mm cutting edge
- You add a sharpening notch that lets say takes away 2 mm of edge, so you have 78 mm of actual edge now
- You can rather easily sharpen that remaining 78 mm of egde right up to the sharpening notch....
- BUT: If there was NO sharpening notch and that would give you trouble sharpening the first one or two mm of cutting edge... You´d STILL end up with the 78 mm of sharp edge, but instead of an annoying, snaggy notch you´d have at worst just 2mm of less sharp edge at the heel of the blade...

.... this is why I never understood why on earth people want that notch.

And, as Vivi said: Even for me - not a pro sharpener at all - it is not a problem to sharpen that first 1 or 2 mm right where the edge starts. And even if I had to take a metal file or whatever and crudly add some sharpness: Having 2 mm of crudly sharpened edge is still way better imo than actually a chip in the edge (and this is what a sharpening notch basically IS) instead....

/ Some people who choose to not sharpen that first 1 or 2 mm of edge complain about the recurve that starts to form there.
But again: For one a "recurve" is a lot better than a "chip" (sharpening notch) and then it is no problem to file away that "recurve" and make it even with the rest of the edge, while one can´t remove a sharpening choil without loosing a ton of blade height....

[kennethsime]

Agreed.

[aicolainen]

Took some time off, but I'm back again - I think...

I'm firmly in the camp who prefers as much edge as possible, without compromising on other important features of course.

I'm no sharpening wizard, but with my own reasoning aligning very well with Wartstein, my conclusion is the same as vivi's - I'll go to my grave prefering all edge over sharpening choils.

I also appreciate good blade, or rather edge to handle ratio's. One factor that strongly contributes to this preference is my rather narrow palm/grip. A knife handle that fits me well will always be quite short anyways, so I want the length of the handle to be utilized fully by packing as much blade as possible. And when I choose to go up in handle size to get a longer blade, the blade/edge to handel ratio is almost more important, as in these instances I'm often sacrificing ergonomics just to achieve that added edge length.
One notable exception is for wharncliffes, where I usually want a rather short blade with good tip control independent of handle size.

As for index choils. I started out not really liking them much. Simply for leaving me with a feeling that they dig too much into that precious realestate that could otherwise be used for cutting edge (with notable exceptio for some designs that would require a ricasso anyways).
However, I've noticed that a lot of my knives will frequently cut food or other sticky matter that I would rather avoid entering into my pivot area, and I find that an index choil usually aids in preventing this. It doesn't have to be a big choil to achieve this and it doesn't have to be a full 50/50 choil either. My favorite choiled knife to date is the OG Stretch. Perfectly sized choil in a knife that's also able to retain a very decent edge to handle ratio.
Overall I think my preference has changed to prefering modest choils, like the Stretch 1, over no choils. But I'll rather have no choil than an exessivly large one.

Time off or not, I'm just as succinct as I ever was :)

[Bolster]

...I want the length of the handle to be utilized fully by packing as much blade as possible. And when I choose to go up in handle size to get a longer blade, the blade/edge to handel ratio is almost more important, as in these instances I'm often sacrificing ergonomics just to achieve that added edge length....

Hear the man.

[LeDe]

FWIW, I am not an expert, a sharpener or a heavy user by any mean. But I'd take more edge at all time.
The point about "under-sharpened" bit of the edge being better than sharpening choil makes sense to me.
I just got a Native 5 Salt. I like it but I dont think I'll really ever warm up to any choils.
I do understand (or i think i do) that you can't avoid some kind of choil with some design. That is why I'd be interested to get a Rock/Leafjumper ( ideally XL salt) or a Salt Resilience (i know this is a long shot).

Best,

[Wartstein]

FWIW, I am not an expert, a sharpener or a heavy user by any mean. But I'd take more edge at all time.
The point about "under-sharpened" bit of the edge being better than sharpening choil makes sense to me.
I just got a Native 5 Salt. I like it but I dont think I'll really ever warm up to any choils.
I do understand (or i think i do) that you can't avoid some kind of choil with some design. That is why I'd be interested to get a Rock/Leafjumper ( ideally XL salt) or a Salt Resilience (i know this is a long shot).

Best,

I normally also like a lot of edge in comparison to the handle length - and Resilience / Tenacious... certainly will give you that.
Not really so the Rock/Leafjumper though, this has been discussed quite a bit before you joined here and is may main or actually only gripe with the platform and the reason why I don´t own a Rockjumper anymore and so far never had a Leafjumper:

Despite in an "Reveal" they said they´d pack as much edge as possible in the Rockjumpers compact handle, this is not the case.
My main example to demonstrate this always is Stretch 1 (discontinued) vs. Rockjumper:

- Same closed length (113 mm / 4.43").. but

- Stretch1 : Cutting edge 81mm / 3.2" (blade 89mm / 3.5"), Rockjumper: Cutting edge 72mm / 2.85" (blade 78 mm / 3.08")

So the Stretch 1, despite it even has a finger choil, gives you a lot more blade and about 10% more edge than the Rockjumper (and the Rockjumper still exceeds the 3.00 blade limit, so it can´t be about legal reasons here - and there´d be a lot of space left in the handle for more blade)

So if your goal is to get a lot of edge in comparison to the handle length, you actually have to look at the stats: "Edge all the way to the handle" does not say much concerning this just by itself.

(The RJ/LJ are great knives, no doubt. But for me personally they´d be even better with the added versatility of more cutting edge. I do feel a difference between for example using my Stretch 1 (3.2" edge) and my Manix (2.88 of edge)

[LeDe]

FWIW, I am not an expert, a sharpener or a heavy user by any mean. But I'd take more edge at all time.
The point about "under-sharpened" bit of the edge being better than sharpening choil makes sense to me.
I just got a Native 5 Salt. I like it but I dont think I'll really ever warm up to any choils.
I do understand (or i think i do) that you can't avoid some kind of choil with some design. That is why I'd be interested to get a Rock/Leafjumper ( ideally XL salt) or a Salt Resilience (i know this is a long shot).

Best,

I normally also like a lot of edge in comparison to the handle length - and Resilience / Tenacious... certainly will give you that.
Not really so the Rock/Leafjumper though, this has been discussed quite a bit before you joined here and is may main or actually only gripe with the platform and the reason why I don´t own a Rockjumper anymore and so far never had a Leafjumper:

Despite in an "Reveal" they said they´d pack as much edge as possible in the Rockjumpers compact handle, this is not the case.
My main example to demonstrate this always is Stretch 1 (discontinued) vs. Rockjumper:

- Same closed length (113 mm / 4.43").. but

- Stretch1 : Cutting edge 81mm / 3.2" (blade 89mm / 3.5"), Rockjumper: Cutting edge 72mm / 2.85" (blade 78 mm / 3.08")

So the Stretch 1, despite it even has a finger choil, gives you a lot more blade and about 10% more edge than the Rockjumper (and the Rockjumper still exceeds the 3.00 blade limit, so it can´t be about legal reasons here - and there´d be a lot of space left in the handle for more blade)

So if your goal is to get a lot of edge in comparison to the handle length, you actually have to look at the stats: "Edge all the way to the handle" does not say much concerning this just by itself.

(The RJ/LJ are great knives, no doubt. But for me personally they´d be even better with the added versatility of more cutting edge. I do feel a difference between for example using my Stretch 1 (3.2" edge) and my Manix (2.88 of edge)

Thanks Warstein.

Interesting facts.
I admit I did not push my research as much as you did.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Interesting topic. I am a big fan of full-length edges without sharpening choils; however, as a knife designer, I am also sensitive to the unique balance of the design itself and the sharpening methods of the factory. If you look closely at the OP's original post, you'll notice that most of the knives criticized for not being sharpened all the way to the heel of the edge had angled blade shoulders. The ones that had shoulders that were perpendicular to the edge tended to be sharpened all the way to the heel.

This is significant, as factory sharpening is typically done with an abrasive belt perpendicular to the edge. With blades that have angled shoulders, it is very easy to nick the shoulder when trying to sharpen all the way to the heel. Sharpening by hand, you can finesse the abrasive right up against the shoulder, but in production, it's much more difficult to do. This challenge was one of the primary reasons the Ed Schempp Kukri and Barong were not as successful as they could have been. The maker nicked the shoulders of the ricasso and, sadly, many of those beautiful designs were seconded.

I'm confident this comment will spark many "well, if you just did this" comments, but until you've manufactured knives in large quantities, you don't fully understand the challenges of translating a process that works one knife at a time to thousands of blades.

On the positive side, if you use your knives and sharpen them yourself, this is a relatively easy fix.

I hope this helps shed some light on the totality of the issue.

Stay safe,

Mike