Browsing through the product guide: The two middle ground models that are still missing imo

[kennethsime]

Agreed on the mid-size Native. I handled a Native Chief this week, and while I love the blade length, and I hesitate to say this, the handle is a bit too long. Doesn't hurt anybody, but man do you notice it.

[vivi]

Agreed on the mid-size Native. I handled a Native Chief this week, and while I love the blade length, and I hesitate to say this, the handle is a bit too long. Doesn't hurt anybody, but man do you notice it.

I was actually thinking about making a thread about this.

Sal has gone on record saying he doesn't like making really big folders (4.5-6" blades) because you end up with more handle than you need.

Personally that has never bothered me. In fact it can be useful.

For example, a Voyager XL. I can choke up for detail work, use the main grip for general work, and grip further back when using it as a pocket machete.

I've never been of the mentality that past X blade length a fixed blade is always the solution 100% of the time. Sometimes a folder works better. Maybe due to laws, maybe due to ease of carry, maybe due to other reasons.

For example, I carry my Voyager XL in my disc golf bag for hacking through briars when someone throws off the fairway. It works great for that role. Niche, sure, but a fixed blade wouldn't work any better there. It'd be bulkier in my bag, probably weight more, and probably have less reach to keep my hands away from thorns. I've tried both.

[zhyla]

I've never been of the mentality that past X blade length a fixed blade is always the solution 100% of the time. Sometimes a folder works better.

I think it’s at the point that the handle is awkward that a fixed blade makes more ergonomic sense. I don’t really want a 7” long handle.

Outside of some outdoorsy use cases I don’t know that I really need that long of a knife to carry around. 4” or 5” blade is plenty.

[Wartstein]

inb4 "Shaman is the mid sized Native".

Well, a clear "no" for me - but this is subjective to a good degree of course.

To me a Native is almost defined by:

- Backlock! (Real difference to me to the comp.lock, especially in outdoor use and ergos in harder use)
- Slim, "not tall" and flat carry, light weight (and that there ARE even lighter LW versions)
- Thinner ffg blade with pointier tip

The Shaman does not offer this (but, to be clear: Instead OTHER qualities that on the flipside the Natives don´t. Because we´re looking at different concepts imo).

[Wartstein]

Agreed on the mid-size Native. I handled a Native Chief this week, and while I love the blade length, and I hesitate to say this, the handle is a bit too long. Doesn't hurt anybody, but man do you notice it.

Said it before: While I don´t mind or notice WIDE folders in pocket at all, too LONG folders are a "less good" carry for me than a bit shorter ones.
So the Manix 2 LW is a really small carry for me personally (and not the "pocket hog" it seems to be for others), while a Chief is a on the borderline of being a too "large" = long carry.

[Wartstein]

Now the dfly and the lil native are “small sized folders”. Tiny folders are like the ladybug.

Completely valid opinion!

Just for me it is different: I feel like the typical "Para 3 - PM2 - Milli" or the "Delica - Endela - Endura" is meant to be "small - medium - large", and SOME lines have rather niche knife outliers like the supersmall DFly (the "Millie" family does not have that).

To me personally it is even different: Endura size is "regular", large would be something like a Police, and smaller than an Endura is beginning to get, well, "small".
But I know most people would see this differently

Also: I think regardless if one calls it "medium" or "large" or whatever: Probably more people would choose for a general, do it all EDC folder the PM2 / Manix size than the Lil Native / Dfly size, and so this "gap" in the Native lineup is more obvious imo.

[Wartstein]

I beleive there are technical and objective measurements in this scenario.

? How so ? (Honest question, I don´t know how this could be "objective", but it might be that I am missing something!)

[Wartstein]

I would buy an Endela Salt.

As for a model that sits between the Native 5 and Native Chief... the Endela already fills that niche for me, though I understand how folks with a different hand size might prefer a model with a forward choil.
...

Sure, valid point...

But then we could also say:

Why a Native 5, the Delica already fills that niche
Why a Para 3, The Sage 5 already fills that niche
Why did they bother and make a Chief, the Endura already fills that niche...

[vivi]

Agreed on the mid-size Native. I handled a Native Chief this week, and while I love the blade length, and I hesitate to say this, the handle is a bit too long. Doesn't hurt anybody, but man do you notice it.

Said it before: While I don´t mind or notice WIDE folders in pocket at all, too LONG folders are a "less good" carry for me than a bit shorter ones.
So the Manix 2 LW is a really small carry for me personally (and not the "pocket hog" it seems to be for others), while a Chief is a on the borderline of being a too "large" = long carry.

aren't you an endura guy?

[Wartstein]

....

Natives come in 2.5”, 3”, and 4” (if you don’t consider the Shaman a Native family member). I would argue that is just fine.

I would rather Spyderco focus on innovative models rather than making every combo of size, steel, and handle material for every model.

I get that!

But; I think even for ingenious designers like Sal, there is only so much "real" innovation that can happen..

Hard to explain what I mean, but at some point the "big" and obvious parameters of innovation are just widely covered, like "thumb ramp /no thumb ramp", "choil /edge all the way to the handle" and so on...

And I think a no hump, slim backlock design in the very popular PM2 size is just missing and there is already a great blueprint for that with the Native family.

Can´t recall people uttering that they´d rather want new, innovative designs when the Para 3 came out - despite we had Sage, Delica, Native, Chap, Caly 3... already at that point

[Wartstein]

....

...

aren't you an endura guy?

I am indeed!!

And one (if not even the only one...) thing I do prefer in the Endela or Stretch exactly IS their shorter carry!

But as said: Chief (and Endura) are "on the borderline" of being to long in carry for me - they are still ok, but any longer (or deeper carry) and I would not like that.

And I know: It much depends on the kind of pant / pocket and way of carry!
I mostly don´t like long folders in regular jeans pockets, especially when riding a bike cause then it can happen that the knife gets pushed out of the pocket a bit. Same can happen when doing high steps in mountaineering in hiking pants.
IWB / side pocket... would remedy this!

[vivi]

agreed, i'd never ride a bike with a folder clipped to my front pocket. iwb or clipped to the back pocket of my weight weenie bike shirt if its not going in my revelate tangle.

[Wartstein]

agreed, i'd never ride a bike with a folder clipped to my front pocket. iwb or clipped to the back pocket of my weight weenie bike shirt if its not going in my revelate tangle.

There´s a lot of commuting from appointment to appointment in my main job, and luckily most of it I can do by bicycle, so I ride a bike a lot.
And I am normally just wearing jeans and T shirt when working in town (no "suit and tie" required at all, don´t even own such ) , and in typical JEANS pockets long folders are even more not ideal when on a bike.
Yes, I could go iwb or back pocket, but don´t like both - iwb cause with untucked shirt and more untucked layers the knife is less accesible, and back pocket can be uncomfortable when sitting.
Anyway: Endura length is still just ok for the way I carry folders, even in rfp. But a bit shorter works a bit better, and longer would not be good anymore.

[SaltyCaribbeanDfly]

Regardless of the small/medium/large debate and the new design debate I personally would love to see these as salts because it’s all about sales and these puppies would fly off the shelf.

Endela
3.5” Native
Jumper

And these should be tried or at least handled before being judged; they’re fantastic!!!

Tenacious
Resilience

[Manixguy@1994]

Regardless of the small/medium/large debate and the new design debate I personally would love to see these as salts because it’s all about sales and these puppies would fly off the shelf.

Endela
3.5” Native
Jumper

And these should be tried or at least handled before being judged; they’re fantastic!!!

Tenacious
Resilience

I would be in line for an Endela Salt and would not be picky concerning steel. 3.5 Chief variation sounds like a,good idea if stays in line with the Native Chief train of thought G10/ FRN . Dan

[p_atrick]

If the Shaman is in the Native family and the Bodacious is derived from a Shaman, does the Bodacious fit the bill? Yes, it does not have a back lock, but it does have 3.49 inches of cutting edge. Lots of conversations go back and forth about more of the same (re-sized Native) and altogether new designs. Maybe the Bodacious is walking the fine line between the two?

[bearfacedkiller]

I don’t really have a need for the Endela with the Stretch2 in the lineup. I realize that some don’t like choils but on some knives I do.

The Native is a small knife. It has less than 2.5” of cutting edge and the shaman is not really a native. Maybe if they made one with thinner scales and thinner blade stock. I love the Shaman but it doesn’t fill the gap between the Chief and Native5. I support an actual 3.5 inch native.

[Enactive]

I don’t really have a need for the Endela with the Stretch2 in the lineup. I realize that some don’t like choils but on some knives I do.

The Native is a small knife. It has less than 2.5” of cutting edge and the shaman is not really a native. Maybe if they made one with thinner scales and thinner blade stock. I love the Shaman but it doesn’t fill the gap between the Chief and Native5. I support an actual 3.5 inch native.

Great to hear from you Darby! Hope you and yours had a great Christmas.

I completely agree with your comments.

[bearfacedkiller]

Thanks brother. I’m still here, I just read more and post less. Life is super busy but in the good way.

[Wartstein]

If the Shaman is in the Native family and the Bodacious is derived from a Shaman, does the Bodacious fit the bill? Yes, it does not have a back lock, but it does have 3.49 inches of cutting edge. Lots of conversations go back and forth about more of the same (re-sized Native) and altogether new designs. Maybe the Bodacious is walking the fine line between the two?

Personally I really don´t think that the Bodacious is much like a Native sized between the 5 and the Chief...

Yes, it has a thinner blade than the Shaman, but is a high sabre grind, much heavier than a "mid" sized Native would be even in G10, does NOT offer a choil, has a BLADE that is clearly over the 3.5 limit, does not offer that really "not tall" carry like the "true" Natives do, and yes: Has a comp.lock instead of a backlock - to me a pretty significant difference, especially in outdoor use.

That said: If it had a backlock, I´d probably take a Bodacious over any Native, even over the Chief or a model between Chief and Native 5. But as a pretty much completely different model, not a "mid" sized Native.