The Pivot Bushing

[wrdwrght]

What is it? When did Spyderco start using it? In what models?

What properties does it offer? Does it have unintended consequences?

What facts or opinions do you have about it?

EDIT TO ADD: Seems I overlooked a revealing conversation from 2012 on the “bushing pivot”, also called a “stepped pivot” (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56825&sid=e8a7253ee ... d6cf187e7e). I still have questions, which…I ask because my Canis has a just-perceptible side-to-side blade-play (doesn’t rattle, only moves when I pinch the blade to move it back and forth). A Shabazz disassembly video (https://youtu.be/nvW9A2ta6lA) suggests why that might be normal even though I’d rather not have this play.

Working list of pivot-bushing Spydies:
Military Model (Golden; at 2013 CQI per Spydiewiki)
Military2 (Golden; at 2023 intro)
PM2 (Golden; at 2010 intro)
Manix2 (Golden; at intro or later CQI?)
Native5 (Golden; at intro or later CQI?)
Shaman (Golden; at intro)
Chief (Golden; at 2019 intro: Eric disassembly)
Lil’Native Wharncliffe (Golden; at intro; other LNs?)
Canis (Taichung; at intro)
Kapara (Taichung; at intro)
Sage5 LW (Taichung; at intro)
Watu (Taichung)

[JSumm]

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will post, but I've noticed on my Kapara and Sage 5 LW that you can tighten the pivot pretty tight and still get a very smooth operation. Doesn't require the perfect tweak to the pivot screw to get a nice operation which I appreciate being one who likes to swap scales.

[Ferruginous]

What properties does it offer? Does it have unintended consequences?

It offers super smooth, bearing like opening and closing.

A consequence of the design, I believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), is that if the tolerances aren't perfect from the factory the blade can have some side to side play.

What facts or opinions do you have about it?

My opinion was that I didn't like the pivot bushing because I didn't see how it accommodates future wear.

I have a fact too- I have a CQI Military (with the pivot bushing) that I've been using constantly for a couple of years whose pivot shows no sign of wearing out, at least before I lose it or sharpen the blade down to a nub. If the PB washers ever wear down to where the knife has a tiny amount of side by side play, I'll deal with it and be happy I got several years of constant use out of it.

My opinion now is that I check over every new knife I order to make sure that the pivot is adjusted properly and doesn't have side to side play. If it has side to side blade play it gets returned, if the pivot is smooth and tight it gets a drop of Loctite on the pivot screws and put to work after sitting for 24 hours for the threadlocker to cure.

[ABX2011]

The side to side play with pivot fully tightened was something I encountered on a couple different models. So I stopped buying models with pivot bushings.

[wrdwrght]

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will post, but I've noticed on my Kapara and Sage 5 LW that you can tighten the pivot pretty tight and still get a very smooth operation. Doesn't require the perfect tweak to the pivot screw to get a nice operation which I appreciate being one who likes to swap scales.

Thanks, Jeff. Good to know you have no slop in your Kapara and Sage5 LW (added to above list of pivot-bushing models). My Kapara doesn’t either.

[Sharp Guy]

I'm pretty sure there's several knives in the lineup that use the pivot bushing

Don't the Paramilitary 2s and Para 3s use it? I thought they did. I'm pretty sure the Yojimbo I just got uses it too

[wrdwrght]

What properties does it offer? Does it have unintended consequences?

It offers super smooth, bearing like opening and closing.

A consequence of the design, I believe (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), is that if the tolerances aren't perfect from the factory the blade can have some side to side play.

What facts or opinions do you have about it?

My opinion was that I didn't like the pivot bushing because I didn't see how it accommodates future wear.

I have a fact too- I have a CQI Military (with the pivot bushing) that I've been using constantly for a couple of years whose pivot shows no sign of wearing out, at least before I lose it or sharpen the blade down to a nub. If the PB washers ever wear down to where the knife has a tiny amount of side by side play, I'll deal with it and be happy I got several years of constant use out of it.

My opinion now is that I check over every new knife I order to make sure that the pivot is adjusted properly and doesn't have side to side play. If it has side to side blade play it gets returned, if the pivot is smooth and tight it gets a drop of Loctite on the pivot screws and put to work after sitting for 24 hours for the threadlocker to cure.

Thanks Ferruginous.

No slop in your Military Model? Good to know. What variant? I’d like to know when the OG Military got a pivot-bushing, if it didn’t have one originally. The Military2 certainly has one, and mine has no slop.

Do you think it not possible to swap worn-down PB washers should slop develop?

[wrdwrght]

I'm pretty sure there's several knives in the lineup that use the pivot bushing

Don't the Paramilitary 2s and Para 3s use it? I thought they did. I'm pretty sure the Yojimbo I just got uses it too

Yeah, Sharp Guy, I suspect Golden is moving all its models to pivot-bushings, but absent a declaration from the powers that be, I’m hoping users will chime in with their discoveries and experiences (and fixes…).

[wrdwrght]

The side to side play with pivot fully tightened was something I encountered on a couple different models. So I stopped buying models with pivot bushings.

Thanks, ABX. Can you recall the sloppy models? I’d like to name them above.

[derangedhermit]

I'm pretty sure there's several knives in the lineup that use the pivot bushing

Don't the Paramilitary 2s and Para 3s use it? I thought they did. I'm pretty sure the Yojimbo I just got uses it too

Yeah, Sharp Guy, I suspect Golden is moving all its models to pivot-bushings, but absent a declaration from the powers that be, I’m hoping users will chime in with their discoveries and experiences (and fixes…).

I don't have any info to add, but I would like to be one Spyderco owner who supports moving to pivot bushings on as many models as feasible.

[wrdwrght]

I'm pretty sure there's several knives in the lineup that use the pivot bushing

Don't the Paramilitary 2s and Para 3s use it? I thought they did. I'm pretty sure the Yojimbo I just got uses it too

Yeah, Sharp Guy, I suspect Golden is moving all its models to pivot-bushings, but absent a declaration from the powers that be, I’m hoping users will chime in with their discoveries and experiences (and fixes…).

I don't have any info to add, but I would like to be one Spyderco owner who supports moving to pivot bushings on as many models as feasible.

I’m not trying to discourage their use.

My new Military2, among other Spydie models I have that use a bushing, is reason enough to use them.

My out-of-the-box Canis, which I otherwise love, not so much.

How to fix side-to-side blade-play (i.e. slop) in pivot-bushing Spydies whether out of the box or in rumored development through use is my motive for this thread.

[Guts]

Just checked my Canis and two Sage 5's (CF and LW). Both Sage 5's had a tiny hint of side to side play and the Canis had absolutely none fwiw. The Sage 5's are kinda frankenstein'ed though. Got the CF used and the blade was kinda beat up, but the blade on my LW was still almost new at the time so i swapped the blade+compression lock side liner on both. I don't know if that affected the side to side play or not but could have.

Side to side play doesn't bother me because I haven't gotten a knife with so much play that it affected function in any appreciable way (so far). Up and down play though? Then I'd have a problem, especially on a compression lock.

[gull wing]

I see no harm in a"little" side to side play when locked open. Most knives have side to side when closed. These are acceptable to me.
If you like zero play when open or closed invest in a CRK, of course they require a few $100's more than a Spyderco.
I prefer the Spydedrco action.

[Ferruginous]

No slop in your Military Model? Good to know. What variant? I’d like to know when the OG Military got a pivot-bushing, if it didn’t have one originally. The Military2 certainly has one, and mine has no slop.

Do you think it not possible to swap worn-down PB washers should slop develop?

They started using the pivot bushing around 2016ish, somewhere around there. I got mine a year or two after, it's been perfect since.

It's definitely possible to swap washers, but if they are right from the get-go there probably would never be a reason to. It's not a high-wear part. Now that I think about it, I've never worn out PB washers before the blade has been sharpened down noticeably and it's time to retire the knife.

[Sharp Guy]

Just checked my Canis and two Sage 5's (CF and LW). Both Sage 5's had a tiny hint of side to side play and the Canis had absolutely none fwiw. The Sage 5's are kinda frankenstein'ed though. Got the CF used and the blade was kinda beat up, but the blade on my LW was still almost new at the time so i swapped the blade+compression lock side liner on both. I don't know if that affected the side to side play or not but could have.

Side to side play doesn't bother me because I haven't gotten a knife with so much play that it affected function in any appreciable way (so far). Up and down play though? Then I'd have a problem, especially on a compression lock.

Unless they CQI'd the Sage 5 CF it doesn't use the pivot bushing. As far as I know that was only in the LWs. My first run CF Sage 5 is better than most (I think) but I had to really dial in the pivot to get it as good as I could without any play. It takes a pretty good swing to get it closed but it does ok. The Sage 5 LW I have swings closed nicely without any play. Like a lot of stuff it's a "YMMV" thing

[Guts]

Just checked my Canis and two Sage 5's (CF and LW). Both Sage 5's had a tiny hint of side to side play and the Canis had absolutely none fwiw. The Sage 5's are kinda frankenstein'ed though. Got the CF used and the blade was kinda beat up, but the blade on my LW was still almost new at the time so i swapped the blade+compression lock side liner on both. I don't know if that affected the side to side play or not but could have.

Side to side play doesn't bother me because I haven't gotten a knife with so much play that it affected function in any appreciable way (so far). Up and down play though? Then I'd have a problem, especially on a compression lock.

Unless they CQI'd the Sage 5 CF it doesn't use the pivot bushing. As far as I know that was only in the LWs. My first run CF Sage 5 is better than most (I think) but I had to really dial in the pivot to get it as good as I could without any play. It takes a pretty good swing to get it closed but it does ok. The Sage 5 LW I have swings closed nicely without any play. Like a lot of stuff it's a "YMMV" thing

I had actually bought the CF version specifically to see how different the action was compared to my LW because I'd known the CF versions didn't have the pivot bushing and the LW's did. Imagine my surprise when I took the CF version apart and it had the bushing.

Saw over on bladeforum some guys talking about the CF version now having the pivot bushing in a thread from early this year. So if it did indeed go through CQI, I suppose it was pretty recent.

[Sharp Guy]

Saw over on bladeforum some guys talking about the CF version now having the pivot bushing in a thread from early this year. So if it did indeed go through CQI, I suppose it was pretty recent.

Cool thanks for sharing! I think the pivot bushings are a step up from the regular pivot. When the Kapara was CQI'd I was tempted to sell my original one and get the new one. Then I pulled it out of my knife drawer and the action's actually pretty good. It's not worth hassle and extra money. Same with the Sage 5 CF. I carried mine about a week ago and had no issues with the action. Would I prefer to be like my Sage 5 LW? Yes. Is there enough of a difference for me to go through the trouble to get the new one? For me, no

[ABX2011]

Thanks, ABX. Can you recall the sloppy models? I’d like to name them above.

Native 5 Lightweight. Pretty sure another is the CQI Ikuchi. The original version had the tip somewhat exposed when closed. When they fixed that issue I think they also changed the pivot assembly.

[DavidNM]

Does anyone know which models have the pivot bushing? I am curious to know if there is one in my Lil’ Native?
BTW: there is not side-to side play on mine.

[wrdwrght]

Does anyone know which models have the pivot bushing? I am curious to know if there is one in my Lil’ Native?
BTW: there is not side-to side play on mine.

There’s a list in my OP I’m hoping to lengthen.

The Lil’Native Wharncliffe has a pivot-bushing. And the one in my back-pocket has no blade-play either.

But before I acquired that one, I went to the OpFocus seconds-sale at SFO in May and came away with two Lil’Native Wharncliffes. They each had side-to-side blade-play.

I presume they were seconds because, compared to the one in my pocket, their blade-play was the only difference (apart from their unsightly seconds-notch).

This play got me thinking about my not-a-second Canis (hence this thread). Its play, which, unsuccessfully, I had tried carefully to tighten down (with partially stripped Torx-heads a result, in spite of my cautious turning), is as bad as the Lil’Native seconds!

So, why this play and why the stripped Torx-heads? Perhaps too much machining-variance in the bushing? Or perhaps too much threadlocker contributed to the stripping that made me think further tightening was too risky?

Ultimately, I hope this thread will give rise to some guidance from the Spyderco crew about how to fix side-to-side blade-play in pivot-bushing models, given that this condition not only is enough to put a Spydie in a seconds-bin, but also is “out there” among Spydies that were not seconds.

So far, my email 30 days ago to W&R regarding my Canis has produced no response.

EDIT TO ADD: Left a callback request with W&R yesterday, and they called back some hours later. I explained my issue, and they asked me to email pics of my Canis (as evidence of the partially-stripped Torx-heads of my pivot-screws) so they could send me replacements. Got an acknowledgment of my email this morning saying screws ship every 10 days. I don’t imagine that my kind of request lightens W&R’s load of bigger problems.