CPM 15v Manix 2
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
So...
I'm far from the best sharpener out there but I have kitchen knives that between the maker's original grind and my tweaks are decidedly thin and excellent slicers. Paper towels don't lie. Cut them length-wise and cross-wise and you'll get excellent feedback on how clean your edge is.
But this? This with a pocket knife? This is insane and a genuine testament to Shawn's sharpening skill and understanding of his craft.
Wow. I will not likely ever achieve this but it's amazing to see it and realize the potential. No, most of us don't need this level of precision but it's there if you want and can achieve it.
Shawn was the first person I ever saw do a paper towel cut. It was on this forum actually. It inspired me and let me tell ya, it ain't that easy to pull off. It's become my standard for my kitchen knives but my pocket knives get, well, a little more leeway.
That said, let me clear too in saying to not be intimidated by these results. Like I said, it's beyond me but it's still awesome to see and is inspirational. I haven't cut "regular" paper for edge testing in a long time. Paper towels, receipt paper, finger nails, the pads of my fingers, these have become my metrology if you will.
Okay, sorry, I know that was all commentary on sharpening and not the specific steel but it's cool all the same. So from carving African Blackwood with a factory edge to swirl cuts in paper towels with a user's edge, I'd say that's pretty impressive.
I'm far from the best sharpener out there but I have kitchen knives that between the maker's original grind and my tweaks are decidedly thin and excellent slicers. Paper towels don't lie. Cut them length-wise and cross-wise and you'll get excellent feedback on how clean your edge is.
But this? This with a pocket knife? This is insane and a genuine testament to Shawn's sharpening skill and understanding of his craft.
Wow. I will not likely ever achieve this but it's amazing to see it and realize the potential. No, most of us don't need this level of precision but it's there if you want and can achieve it.
Shawn was the first person I ever saw do a paper towel cut. It was on this forum actually. It inspired me and let me tell ya, it ain't that easy to pull off. It's become my standard for my kitchen knives but my pocket knives get, well, a little more leeway.
That said, let me clear too in saying to not be intimidated by these results. Like I said, it's beyond me but it's still awesome to see and is inspirational. I haven't cut "regular" paper for edge testing in a long time. Paper towels, receipt paper, finger nails, the pads of my fingers, these have become my metrology if you will.
Okay, sorry, I know that was all commentary on sharpening and not the specific steel but it's cool all the same. So from carving African Blackwood with a factory edge to swirl cuts in paper towels with a user's edge, I'd say that's pretty impressive.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Your skills are unreal. Is toothy 400 or 1000 grit vitrified?Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 pmFactory sharpness
CATRA testing edge
Toothy edge with stropping
Mirror polished edge
BESS sharpness chart
Justin
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
This thread is a great read. Thanks for your efforts, BBB.
Can I ask what the heat treatment collaboration was like? Did your treatment scale well immediately?
Or how much testing and iteration until all parties were satisfied?
Can I ask what the heat treatment collaboration was like? Did your treatment scale well immediately?
Or how much testing and iteration until all parties were satisfied?
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Thar is bad@ss work Shawn, thanks for sharing.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 pmFactory sharpness
CATRA testing edge
Toothy edge with stropping
Mirror polished edge
BESS sharpness chart
- Makunochimaster
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
left to do S125V and REX 121
Native 5 cpm-s110v G10. Native 5 cpm-s110v frn.
Lil' Native MB cpm-s30v. Dragonfly 2 zdp-189.
Delica 4 cts-204p limited. Cricket Nishijin blk vg10.
Urban n690co. Persistence s35vn lightweight.
Lil' Native MB cpm-s30v. Dragonfly 2 zdp-189.
Delica 4 cts-204p limited. Cricket Nishijin blk vg10.
Urban n690co. Persistence s35vn lightweight.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Anyone else checking knife stirs a few times a day for release or is it just me?
Endura AUS-8, Manix 2 S30V, Alcyone BD1N, PM2 Micarta Cruwear, Native 5 Maxamet (2nd), Para 3 Maxamet (2nd), Magnacut Mule, Z-Wear Mule, BBB 15V Manix 2, REC PM3 10V Satin, Dragonfly Salt 2, GB2 M4.
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Nah. I’m sure you guys will alert me. I’ve also got it on my watch list at several stores. I fully intend to be carrying one of these in my pocket within days of their release.WilliamMunny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:08 pmAnyone else checking knife stirs a few times a day for release or is it just me?
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Shawn at what carbide volume do you feel that using ceramic stones becomes a exercise in futility?
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:05 pmColumbia Gorge WorksWilliamMunny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:35 pmAs always thanks for the information. I do some wood working/furniture building so some of the things I learn from sanding carry over.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:32 pmYeah, that will work, I'll give some other options as well if I may.WilliamMunny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:13 pm
I use the Worksharp guided sharpening system. The ramps help keep the angle pretty consistent. I also bought the extra plates, extra corse and extra fine. The extra corse stone eats up steel, its 220 diamond it think, and I need to be careful with it. I am pretty sure it would work well even on something like 15V.
C9BA9F06-C95B-43E1-B7A5-FB65C66AD8AD.jpeg
There are bonded diamond and cBN stones that are not electroplated to a surface, they are like a traditional sharpening stone with abrasive throughout the thickness of the "stone" except they are using super abrasive with exotic bonding types to take advantage of the longer-lasting, more expensive abrasive grains.
This does three things, it increases the longevity of the "stone" over a electroplated diamond stone and it also reduces the surface roughness since the abrasive is not so exposed and digging deeper into the steel lastly the abrasive is also better supported and not as prone to breaking and sheering off in use.
Here is a really important detail that nobody to discusses often enough.
The advantage of not having deeper scratches is you will have less stress risers for the given grit meaning you will notice higher stability of the edge.
A 400 grit atoma diamond and a 400grit metallic bonded Poltava will leave completely different surface roughnesses, the deeper scratches from the atoma will make the edge less stable and more prone to damage then the smoother scratches from the bonded stone at the same size grit
The bonded stones do cost more but they last longer and the performance of the end result is better.
Lastly, for finishing edges I recommend diamond or cBN compounds these will help finish the edge nicely without over polishing like some of the softer compounds can do.
Are there any brands of bonded stones I should be looking at? I am guessing having one or two good stones to keep a profile and the Sharpmaker with CBN rods to finish the edge?
Naniwa
Nanohone
Practical Sharpening
Poltava
Venev
To name a few.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Thanks for the nice words man, I always appreciate it.
Eli Chaps wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:22 pmSo...
I'm far from the best sharpener out there but I have kitchen knives that between the maker's original grind and my tweaks are decidedly thin and excellent slicers. Paper towels don't lie. Cut them length-wise and cross-wise and you'll get excellent feedback on how clean your edge is.
But this? This with a pocket knife? This is insane and a genuine testament to Shawn's sharpening skill and understanding of his craft.
Wow. I will not likely ever achieve this but it's amazing to see it and realize the potential. No, most of us don't need this level of precision but it's there if you want and can achieve it.
Shawn was the first person I ever saw do a paper towel cut. It was on this forum actually. It inspired me and let me tell ya, it ain't that easy to pull off. It's become my standard for my kitchen knives but my pocket knives get, well, a little more leeway.
That said, let me clear too in saying to not be intimidated by these results. Like I said, it's beyond me but it's still awesome to see and is inspirational. I haven't cut "regular" paper for edge testing in a long time. Paper towels, receipt paper, finger nails, the pads of my fingers, these have become my metrology if you will.
Okay, sorry, I know that was all commentary on sharpening and not the specific steel but it's cool all the same. So from carving African Blackwood with a factory edge to swirl cuts in paper towels with a user's edge, I'd say that's pretty impressive.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
We'll go into detail in a video.
crazywednesday wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:46 pmYour skills are unreal. Is toothy 400 or 1000 grit vitrified?Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 pmFactory sharpness
CATRA testing edge
Toothy edge with stropping
Mirror polished edge
BESS sharpness chart
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Those are fantastic questions I think I'll save those for talking into the camera.
Thanks for reading the thread man.
Thanks for reading the thread man.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Thanks for your time, I appreciate the compliments thank you.
Enactive wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 9:37 amThar is bad@ss work Shawn, thanks for sharing.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 pmFactory sharpness
CATRA testing edge
Toothy edge with stropping
Mirror polished edge
BESS sharpness chart
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
That would be pretty cool.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
That's a power move right there.
WilliamMunny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:08 pmAnyone else checking knife stirs a few times a day for release or is it just me?
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
That would be really cool, I'll be excited to hear what that you put on it.
RustyIron wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:25 pmNah. I’m sure you guys will alert me. I’ve also got it on my watch list at several stores. I fully intend to be carrying one of these in my pocket within days of their release.WilliamMunny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:08 pmAnyone else checking knife stirs a few times a day for release or is it just me?
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
I feel this is pretty straightforward.
Vanadium carbide 2800Hv (87 HRC)
Aluminum oxide (ceramic) 1800Hv (79 HRC)
Vanadium Carbide volume in CPM 15V is ~23%
Why are you going to use an abrasive that only sharpens 77% of the edge and then complain that it's too difficult to sharpen and not taking an edge?
Vanadium carbide 2800Hv (87 HRC)
Aluminum oxide (ceramic) 1800Hv (79 HRC)
Vanadium Carbide volume in CPM 15V is ~23%
Why are you going to use an abrasive that only sharpens 77% of the edge and then complain that it's too difficult to sharpen and not taking an edge?
NCJohn62 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:58 amShawn at what carbide volume do you feel that using ceramic stones becomes a exercise in futility?
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:05 pmColumbia Gorge WorksWilliamMunny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:35 pmAs always thanks for the information. I do some wood working/furniture building so some of the things I learn from sanding carry over.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:32 pm
Yeah, that will work, I'll give some other options as well if I may.
There are bonded diamond and cBN stones that are not electroplated to a surface, they are like a traditional sharpening stone with abrasive throughout the thickness of the "stone" except they are using super abrasive with exotic bonding types to take advantage of the longer-lasting, more expensive abrasive grains.
This does three things, it increases the longevity of the "stone" over a electroplated diamond stone and it also reduces the surface roughness since the abrasive is not so exposed and digging deeper into the steel lastly the abrasive is also better supported and not as prone to breaking and sheering off in use.
Here is a really important detail that nobody to discusses often enough.
The advantage of not having deeper scratches is you will have less stress risers for the given grit meaning you will notice higher stability of the edge.
A 400 grit atoma diamond and a 400grit metallic bonded Poltava will leave completely different surface roughnesses, the deeper scratches from the atoma will make the edge less stable and more prone to damage then the smoother scratches from the bonded stone at the same size grit
The bonded stones do cost more but they last longer and the performance of the end result is better.
Lastly, for finishing edges I recommend diamond or cBN compounds these will help finish the edge nicely without over polishing like some of the softer compounds can do.
Are there any brands of bonded stones I should be looking at? I am guessing having one or two good stones to keep a profile and the Sharpmaker with CBN rods to finish the edge?
Naniwa
Nanohone
Practical Sharpening
Poltava
Venev
To name a few.
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
It’s tough having no idea when or how many. I mean if each dealer got 50 it will be a blood bath to get one. So I check when I hop on my phone for something, you never know… but I will be sure to let everyone know if I see one for sale, that is after I place my order.Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:27 amThat's a power move right there.
WilliamMunny wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:08 pmAnyone else checking knife stirs a few times a day for release or is it just me?
Endura AUS-8, Manix 2 S30V, Alcyone BD1N, PM2 Micarta Cruwear, Native 5 Maxamet (2nd), Para 3 Maxamet (2nd), Magnacut Mule, Z-Wear Mule, BBB 15V Manix 2, REC PM3 10V Satin, Dragonfly Salt 2, GB2 M4.
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
You're not the only one William, for the occasion I have bookmarked 4 product page from USA based dealers. Even if I intended to wait before checking, I end up checking several times everyday like a maniac.
In the collection : Lots of different steels, in lots of different (and same) Spydercos.
Robin. Finally made an IG : ramo_knives
MNOSD member 004* aka Mr. N5s
Robin. Finally made an IG : ramo_knives
MNOSD member 004* aka Mr. N5s
Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
It is straightforward Shawn, I was actually asking about lesser carbide steels and not so much for my own knowledge but as a way to expand the conversation.
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:33 amI feel this is pretty straightforward.
Vanadium carbide 2800Hv (87 HRC)
Aluminum oxide (ceramic) 1800Hv (79 HRC)
Vanadium Carbide volume in CPM 15V is ~23%
Why are you going to use an abrasive that only sharpens 77% of the edge and then complain that it's too difficult to sharpen and not taking an edge?
NCJohn62 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:58 amShawn at what carbide volume do you feel that using ceramic stones becomes a exercise in futility?
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:05 pmColumbia Gorge WorksWilliamMunny wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:35 pm
As always thanks for the information. I do some wood working/furniture building so some of the things I learn from sanding carry over.
Are there any brands of bonded stones I should be looking at? I am guessing having one or two good stones to keep a profile and the Sharpmaker with CBN rods to finish the edge?
Naniwa
Nanohone
Practical Sharpening
Poltava
Venev
To name a few.
- Deadboxhero
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Re: CPM 15v Manix 2
Ah, I see, I misunderstood. You would be surprised how often I'm bombarded with why ceramic can't cut vanadium carbide.
As for when is the exact amount that you absolutely, positively, always need diamond the most commonly held belief was if the steel has 4% wt Vanadium alloy in its chemistry then you need diamond.
(The amount of vanadium alloy % wt in the steel is not the same as volume of vanadium carbide in matrix)
However, it's not a "hard wall" where if you have 3.99% you're good to go and if you have 4% you are doomed to diamond.
It's more of a large fuzzy line near 4% wt V alloy in common knife steels where you'll notice the increasing vanadium carbide volume reduces the effectiveness of ceramic abrasive to shape the apex especially if the steel is at high hardness.
In my experience, I've had better results with diamond even going as low as on steels like Cru Forge V (cfv) which have significantly less than the 4% wt V rule.
So, if you are a discerning sharpener you may notice a crisper edge using diamond even on steels less than 4% wt V alloy like 3v, cruwear and cfv in my personal experience, for others it doesn't seem to be a big deal to just use ceramic on steels like these. ymmv but I don't think we're all getting them equally sharp, I think some people are just fine with the level of sharpness they are getting "as long as it cuts what I need it's good to go" to each their own, whatever works, unless you're trying to make comparisons about the steel sharpness capability of course.
I feel this can also be a bit of a loaded question because at the heart of the question it could be about trying your best to avoid diamond because of negative experiences with some Diamond Stones.
Unfortunately, people put all diamond stones in the same box; they are not all the same.
One of the many reasons why people don't like diamond stones is because of the deep scratches they leave.
Most people don't make the distinction between electroplated stones and bonded stones.
Bonded Stones use resin, vitrification or metallic powders to make a full thickness "stone" just like a waterstone. It's not just a coated layer like the electroplated stuff. The abrasive particles are not sticking up as far with bonded stones so they don't dig into the bevel as deep when you cut with them which also means the abrasive is less prone to tearing out and dulling. A bonded stone surface can also be refreshed to reveal new abrasive grains.
So, it's like an "everlasting gobstopper" so to speak in comparison to the coated electroplated stones.
What is the problem with deeper scratches from electroplated diamond?
As you may know, deeper scratches from the cheaper electroplated stones can mean bigger stress risers which can reduce edge stability and those scratches are more difficult to remove with higher grit.
The bonded diamond and cBN stones are nothing new, but it doesn't seem to be common knowledge yet for some that may be reading. Fortunately, the information seems to be slowly trickling out to people that bonded stones behave differently with less of the drawbacks of the electroplated stones except in cost of course.
I think folks should remember steels with excess carbide volume are not focused on the absence of sharpening.
It's about sharpening when you want to not because you have to. so it's worth also investing in good stones.
As for when is the exact amount that you absolutely, positively, always need diamond the most commonly held belief was if the steel has 4% wt Vanadium alloy in its chemistry then you need diamond.
(The amount of vanadium alloy % wt in the steel is not the same as volume of vanadium carbide in matrix)
However, it's not a "hard wall" where if you have 3.99% you're good to go and if you have 4% you are doomed to diamond.
It's more of a large fuzzy line near 4% wt V alloy in common knife steels where you'll notice the increasing vanadium carbide volume reduces the effectiveness of ceramic abrasive to shape the apex especially if the steel is at high hardness.
In my experience, I've had better results with diamond even going as low as on steels like Cru Forge V (cfv) which have significantly less than the 4% wt V rule.
So, if you are a discerning sharpener you may notice a crisper edge using diamond even on steels less than 4% wt V alloy like 3v, cruwear and cfv in my personal experience, for others it doesn't seem to be a big deal to just use ceramic on steels like these. ymmv but I don't think we're all getting them equally sharp, I think some people are just fine with the level of sharpness they are getting "as long as it cuts what I need it's good to go" to each their own, whatever works, unless you're trying to make comparisons about the steel sharpness capability of course.
I feel this can also be a bit of a loaded question because at the heart of the question it could be about trying your best to avoid diamond because of negative experiences with some Diamond Stones.
Unfortunately, people put all diamond stones in the same box; they are not all the same.
One of the many reasons why people don't like diamond stones is because of the deep scratches they leave.
Most people don't make the distinction between electroplated stones and bonded stones.
Bonded Stones use resin, vitrification or metallic powders to make a full thickness "stone" just like a waterstone. It's not just a coated layer like the electroplated stuff. The abrasive particles are not sticking up as far with bonded stones so they don't dig into the bevel as deep when you cut with them which also means the abrasive is less prone to tearing out and dulling. A bonded stone surface can also be refreshed to reveal new abrasive grains.
So, it's like an "everlasting gobstopper" so to speak in comparison to the coated electroplated stones.
What is the problem with deeper scratches from electroplated diamond?
As you may know, deeper scratches from the cheaper electroplated stones can mean bigger stress risers which can reduce edge stability and those scratches are more difficult to remove with higher grit.
The bonded diamond and cBN stones are nothing new, but it doesn't seem to be common knowledge yet for some that may be reading. Fortunately, the information seems to be slowly trickling out to people that bonded stones behave differently with less of the drawbacks of the electroplated stones except in cost of course.
I think folks should remember steels with excess carbide volume are not focused on the absence of sharpening.
It's about sharpening when you want to not because you have to. so it's worth also investing in good stones.
NCJohn62 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:02 pmIt is straightforward Shawn, I was actually asking about lesser carbide steels and not so much for my own knowledge but as a way to expand the conversation.
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:33 amI feel this is pretty straightforward.
Vanadium carbide 2800Hv (87 HRC)
Aluminum oxide (ceramic) 1800Hv (79 HRC)
Vanadium Carbide volume in CPM 15V is ~23%
Why are you going to use an abrasive that only sharpens 77% of the edge and then complain that it's too difficult to sharpen and not taking an edge?
NCJohn62 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:58 amShawn at what carbide volume do you feel that using ceramic stones becomes a exercise in futility?
Deadboxhero wrote: ↑Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:05 pm
Columbia Gorge Works
Naniwa
Nanohone
Practical Sharpening
Poltava
Venev
To name a few.