Is MAP pricing % changing come 2022?

[cycleguy]

I foresee in 2022 whenever it is announced - "latest and greatest steel" in your favorite model(s) ... people scramble to get one (and the flipper saga goes on as well)!

It's been an eye opening experience (as I'm relatively new to this) to see and experience how popular and strong of a following knife collecting is. It's been equally eye opening to learn collectors range from ultra price sensitive misers (with or without cause) to those that will drop thousands without a concern.

The best takeaway I gather from this thread is for price sensitive individuals to buy now before price increases take hold.

[JRinFL]

I foresee in 2022 whenever it is announced - "latest and greatest steel" in your favorite model(s) ... people scramble to get one (and the flipper saga goes on as well)!
<snip>

I already know I will be buying a few models in MagnaCut, Native 5, Native Chief, Manix 2, and maybe a Delica if it gets made. Depends on price however, it may end up only being two of the five listed. You can tell the real prophets by whether or not their predictions come true.

[zhyla]

Spyderco and Benchmade knives are not cheap knives so can’t be compared to $50 Chinese produced knives in my book.

I think you’re about 5 years out of date there buddy. $50 Chinese knives from the right companies can be insanely good. I get the reasons why people want to buy America but quality is no longer one of them for knives.

[RamZar]

When the Japan-made Spyderco folders with VG-10/G-10 and steel liners became too expensive and discontinued we saw more linerless lightweight folders with FRN show up.

Come January 2022 the ParaMilitary2 S45VN/G-10 with steel liners will be $171.50 (up 10% from the current $154.70). BladeHQ announced their ParaMilitary2 Exclusives with BD1N/Aluminum and no steel liners for $140.00 weighing just 3.25 oz. which is less than the PM2 G-10 with liners at 3.75 oz. So, a lightweight PM2 with less expensive blade steel is one way to provide a more affordable PM2.

[JSumm]

Great observation RamZar. So we just may see more lightweight options coming from Golden in the future to fight back rising cost. I am looking at you Native Chief.

[Road Tripper]

I just want to offer this perspective. I bought a PM2 in late 2017, and also picked up a Cold Steel Code 4 and American Lawman around the same time.

Prices then, from my records:

American Lawman: ~90.
Code 4: ~75
PM2: ~125

Prices now (lowest I could find, at some of the common retailers):

American Lawman: ~115
Code 4: ~102
PM2: ~155

Percentage change, in roughly four years:

American Lawman: ~28%
Code 4: ~36%
PM2: ~24%

Granted the PM2 price is going up more in a couple of weeks, so we'll see how that goes. At $171, it would be about a 36% jump from late 2017.

It would be interesting to add pricing for some other common knives, like the 940.

[phaust]

Looking quick, the Code 4 is still found at $80 (eg Botach) and lots more around $90, plus it goes on sale lower, not something that can be said about the PM2. At $80, that's under 7% up from your records. At $92 where a bunch more places have it, that's closer to the PM2 at 23%.

The Lawman can also be found cheaper, such as $91 at Battlehawk Armory. That puts it at ~1%. I see it two more places at $95, which would be about ~6%, but that's still quite a bit under.

So the new comparison in best price cases is:
American Lawman: ~1%
Code 4: ~7%
PM2: ~24%

Cold Steel prices are all over the place though. They seem to have MAP that they don't actively patrol, so you have like the AD10 for $192 at BladeHQ but regularly found under $110 elsewhere. Plus, the end result is the company sold out. I'd gladly pay a bit more to keep Spyderco going as it is.

I think you're right that something like the 940 would provide an interesting measuring stick.

[mmadison]

How would one go about installing a Spyderco clip that is "bent backwards"? Glue?

[Monty]

Somewhat on topic (and I probably should just contact the stores directly)... I've got my eye on a couple that have been announced but haven't seen release yet. There's places like knife center that have them up for pre-order, anyone know if this will secure the purchase at current pricing or will I end up paying 2022 prices anyway?

[spoonrobot]

It would be interesting to add pricing for some other common knives, like the 940.

I've started and stopped this sort of project a few times. The issue I always run into is hidden MAAP prices.

As listed, the base model 940 costs exactly the same today as it did 10 years ago. That's not really true for a couple reasons, it's hard to find what the actual sale price was since long archived websites had the price hidden behind java script boxes that don't work anymore. Oh and the base model is now G10 instead of aluminum.

Model-to-model with the green alu scale versions, as list price - the 940 has only increased in price 9.8% since 2011.

There are a lot of knives like this, it's hard to pick and freeze a specific model that illustrates any robust trend. The Delica/Endura and Griptilian/Mini are an interesting comparison as well that I can get a better picture through the marketing emails I have saved since 2004 and some of my email receipts.

Another thing is; I bought a original Yojimbo new in late-2006 for $123.99, the current Yojimbo 2 is $154.70 - with the same materials and blade steel. That's a very small difference over 15 years - 25% - for a model that was redesigned.

On the same order I bought a Foliage Delica for $46.99, today that same knife is $84.00 - a much bigger change of around 78%.

Around that time I also got a BM555 for $59, today the same knife is $106 - 80% change.

I think price shocks are always relative to time in the market and time of entry. Everything, and I mean everything, in the knife market seems expensive to me know - because I spent 85% of my dollars prior to 2012.

There are also other factors to consider. If a line or tier of knives can be held at a lower relative increasing price - at the cost of hollowing out the low end to other countries/manufacturers - that cost should be factored as well. It's obvious now that the Benchmade Red Line and Spyderco's Byrd line were part of the same strategy to mitigate price shocks to the low/mid-tier Japanese and Golden models while easing in Chinese production to the main brand. I think this is generally a very complex issue and I am thankful that Sal, has shared as much as he has over the years. Prices may go up but I have never felt Spyderco was taking advantage or pricing themselves above their quality.

[RamZar]

The current wave of MAP enforcement started with Benchmade in January 2014 followed by Zero Tolerance in January 2015 and then Spyderco in January 2016. Pressure from dealers was fierce!

[phaust]

Yojimbo 2 could be had for $99 for a number of years and at least as late as 2014, so that's actually a ~55% increase in 7 years. This is BladeHq from 2014



I paid a buck less than that in 2012 for mine. It could be misremembering, but it seems like prices didn't jump as much pre-MAP.

[Mystery Flavor]

^That's a wild increase for the yojimbo. And starting in 2022 the MSRP for the all black DLC yoJUMBO will be $313, or $219 MAP. With these price increases I feel that models such as the yojumbo will never be experienced by most. Partly because the cost and partly because it only has been available in S30V so far when it was cheaper.

That screenshot got me thinking to post this link for the wayback machine in case anyone feels like digging into the years past of knife dealer websites.(or whatever else) https://web.archive.org/
It's only so capable and there's lots of missing gaps for most websites. We could look at those pre-MAP years and try to reverse figure out the price increases.

[spoonrobot]

Oh man I miss this:


I went and checked a couple sources back to 2005 and here's the data in graph form, took a while to pull the prices out of the archive. Sources at bottom.

► Show Spoiler

Delica Black FRN Handle VG-10 Blade, Knifecenter.com
Oct 2005 46.95
Nov 2006 44.95
Nov 2007 46.95
Mar 2008 49.95
Feb 2009 57.95
Nov 2010 57.95
Sep 2011 57.95
Mar 2012 59.95
Apr 2013 63.95
Apr 2014 67.99
Mar 2015 69.95
Dec 2015 69.95
Apr 2016 65.97
Jun 2016 65.97
Jul 2016 65.97
Nov 2016 65.97
Jul 2017 68.97
Aug 2020 84.00
End Data Available

Let's see if BHQ has data to see what happens 2017-2020
Apr 2017 68.97
Nov 2017 68.97
Feb 2018 74.72
Dec 2018 74.72
Feb 2019 74.72
Sep 2020 84.00
Dec 2021 84.00

[araneae]

Spyderco and Benchmade knives are not cheap knives so can’t be compared to $50 Chinese produced knives in my book. (Even most $50 Chinese knives 5 years ago are $60 nowadays)

Definitely a dated opinion. At $52 I can buy a shockingly nice Kizer with 154CM or N690Co and micarta handles or a Tenacious in 8Cr13. I will admit the Tenacious is physically more knife, but it certainly isn't a nicer made knife from my experience. Next year that $52 will buy me a bit more than half a Delica...

[Hopsbreath]

Yojimbo 2 could be had for $99 for a number of years and at least as late as 2014, so that's actually a ~55% increase in 7 years. This is BladeHq from 2014



I paid a buck less than that in 2012 for mine. It could be misremembering, but it seems like prices didn't jump as much pre-MAP.

Can confirm, I paid $96.95 for a Yo2 in 2013. The PM2 was around that $100 mark at that time for those who were patient and paying attention too. Discontinued G10 knives were always around that same $100 price point, I have receipts for the Large Chinese Folder, Breeden Rescue and Superleaf for under $100; the Chokwe cost me $117 and was a titanium frame lock. I remember passing on a titanium UKPK for under $100, THAT was a mistake! The good old days, when MAP was a term I hadn’t yet learned.

[Philo Beddoe]

Spyderco knives were recommended for everyone who needed a tool. Now they are expensive toys for enthusiasts.

It's definitely hard to recommend to the average guy who just bought a well stocked tool kit for under $200 that they should buy a PM2 for the same price. It's an enthusiast market for sure.

tools.jpg

One made in China and the other made in the US.

[JRinFL]

I believe that Kobalt tool set is mostly made in Taiwan. Many, many Spyderco models are sourced there as well.

[bearfacedkiller]

Sure, but Taiwan makes lots of different stuff, some high quality and some low quality. Kobalt tools aren’t high quality. The GB2 is and most Taichung folders are. Spyderco’s Taiwan folders from the other maker are closer to budget knives. Maybe they would be a more fair comparison.

[BornIn1500]

One made in China and the other made in the US.

My point is the price and tool quantity difference is so drastic that I think only a real knife "enthusiast" will buy a knife like that these days. It's not something the average person will be able to justify, even to people who seek US made products. You can tout the US origin all you want, but people usually can only afford so much for tools.

This all isn't a bad thing, though. The enthusiast market is exploding and sales seem to be higher than ever before.