Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

[James Y]

3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.

...

source: google images

Where I absolutely COULD see such a result is from a single, heavy impact: Like lie down the blade on a hard surface and hit it with a sledge hammer on the flat... ?!

Or perhaps it was pried with, with the blade deep into the material, and moved side-to-side(?).

Jim

[gull wing]

I have the "Military" family of knives, Mili, Para 1 2 3. Often wondered why the thin, narrow tip.
Love my Para 3's though.

[VooDooChild]

Well a thicker piece of steel is stronger than a thinner piece of steel.

Whether you need it in a knife is a good question.

There is also a point of diminishing returns as that thickness increases. Eventually you have something that wont cut.

But saying knife A is "stronger" than knife B is a selling point for a lot of non knife people.


Thin will slice better but I like my thicker bladed knives, I carry and use them often. You know those giant 55 gallon, thick plastic garbage cans. I had to notch a vee into a drilled out hole on the bottom of several of them at my work a while back. I feel like this is one of those good examples of a thicker blade stock working better.

[wrdwrght]

“Hard-use” in folders like the Millie, PM2, Manix, Native tests the pivot (and Spydiehole), not the tip. Apart from stabbing, the tip on such knives is meant for fine/delicate work. Pry at your peril.

A thicker spine better imbues the blade overall with the power of the wedge on downward pressure, not lateral (prying) pressure.

The distil taper, more pronounced on thick-spined blades, keeps open the option for a point’s utility. The wondrous Chaparral is thus not a general utilitarian knife; it’s more a specialized one, a slicer.

Hard-use and tip are opposite ends of a conversation.

[Wartstein]

“Hard-use” in folders like the Millie, PM2, Manix, Native tests the pivot (and Spydiehole), not the tip. Apart from stabbing, the tip on such knives is meant for fine/delicate work. Pry at your peril.

A thicker spine better imbues the blade overall with the power of the wedge on downward pressure, not lateral (prying) pressure.

The distil taper, more pronounced on thick-spined blades, keeps open the option for a point’s utility. The wondrous Chaparral is thus not a general utilitarian knife; it’s more a specialized one, a slicer.

Hard-use and tip are opposite ends of a conversation.

I absolutely thought so too... but after really beating on the Chap: To my own big surprise it actually IS a "general utilitarian knife" for me... it helps with this of course that the overall construction is supersolid (steel liners, steel backspacer...)

[Wartstein]

“Hard-use” in folders like the Millie, PM2, Manix, Native tests the pivot (and Spydiehole), not the tip. Apart from stabbing, the tip on such knives is meant for fine/delicate work. Pry at your peril.

A thicker spine better imbues the blade overall with the power of the wedge on downward pressure, not lateral (prying) pressure.

The distil taper, more pronounced on thick-spined blades, keeps open the option for a point’s utility. The wondrous Chaparral is thus not a general utilitarian knife; it’s more a specialized one, a slicer.

Hard-use and tip are opposite ends of a conversation.

Not necessarely imho: In quite some realistic "hard use tasks" I can imagine (and where one could potentially profit of the thicker blade) the (fine or not) tip inevitably comes into play in one or the other way...

[Ankerson]

For me hard use would be field use, but then IMO that means a fixed blade.

Pocket knives are not really what I would consider "hard use" tools in that since.

Yes there are folders that are bricks and yes they really can take rough use, but a fixed blade would still be a better option.

There are some exceptions like the Strider SmF and CRK Sebenza 25 or ZAAN etc that really can take harder use like prying and they aren't bricks....

If people pry with their folders then they shouldn't be surprised when they break it.

[SG89]

Thin tips with thick blade stock gives people false hope in that they can force the thin tip into a tight space and use the thick blade stock to really pry something lol. Spyderco had to change from pointy tips to less pointy tips on the Delica and endura platforms bc people were snapping the tip left and right. Gen 3 vs gen 4.

[Ric]

Opinel #8 has a thickness of 1.65mm

It's an extreme slicer, which should hold up for cutting normal things quite well.

Maybe its an American way to overbuilt...?

If I am in the military I would prefer having an more overbuilt knife, but for light EDC / kitchen tasks the thinner the better.

Wartstein: Thanks for bringing this topic up. You threads are always on the edge and rattling things up - in a good way.

[Higher]

I'm with you Wartstein.

Our knives have different tasks. But most often we cut with our knives. Food, paper, cloth.
3mm is enough for us.



The main task of a knife is to cut. Try to work in the kitchen. Cut a lot like a chef. It's hard to do this with a thick knife.


Stop chopping steel nails with knives :D


Yes, there are no universal solutions. Each tool has its own task. Sometimes you have to make compromises. But 3mm solves the problem.

[JuPaul]

The Shaman is the king fellas! Robust blade AND tip.

I was thinking the same thing! In addition to the Pac Salt, it's definitely the folder in my collection that I consider "for hard use". As SG said, people pry! (Although I won't lie about it ). I'm never going to pry open a paint can with it or anything like that, but I have absolutely used my shaman to pry off bark, to twist through a bit of thick cardboard that's gotten bound up, etc. When a little sideways torque is necessary, I appreciate the thicker stock and the stout tip. I'd feel safe doing some of those things with a manix, too, especially with a tougher steel.

I would not, however, do any kind of prying with a pm2 because of the thin tip as W points out, and I wouldn't mind it having thinner blade stock.

[wrdwrght]

Thin tips with thick blade stock gives people false hope in that they can force the thin tip into a tight space and use the thick blade stock to really pry something lol. Spyderco had to change from pointy tips to less pointy tips on the Delica and endura platforms bc people were snapping the tip left and right. Gen 3 vs gen 4.

No argument here. Prying with a folder (whether thin- or thick-bladed, whether the fulcrum is at the tip or back along the spine where its thicker) is not within its design-parameters, so you takes yer chances, or lessen them with a fixed-blade, as Jim says.

[Sonorum]

If I remember correctly I think some compression lock knives need that thick blade stock to allow the lock to work properly. I remember reading that on the forum.

Other than that, I completely agree with W. My pm2 can feel delicate whereas some other don't.

The robust feeling of a knife, for me, often comes from trusting the handle, the pivot, and then the durability of the edge and blade. I would never use a bugout the same way I use a native.

Footnote: I managed to snap 1 mm of the tip of my s90v Native prying a piece of plastic on a household appliance that i never would damage the knife. It sucks so bad. Not the end of the knife but it feels horrible when damage occurs like that.

[Wartstein]

If I remember correctly I think some compression lock knives need that thick blade stock to allow the lock to work properly. I remember reading that on the forum.

Other than that, I completely agree with W. My pm2 can feel delicate whereas some other don't.

The robust feeling of a knife, for me, often comes from trusting the handle, the pivot, and then the durability of the edge and blade. I would never use a bugout the same way I use a native.

Footnote: I managed to snap 1 mm of the tip of my s90v Native prying a piece of plastic on a household appliance that i never would damage the knife. It sucks so bad. Not the end of the knife but it feels horrible when damage occurs like that.

I remember that and thought so too.
But at least 2.5 mm stock (so like a Delica) are possible with a comp. lock - see Ikuchi!
3mm (like an Endura) anyway (Sage 5, Kapara...

/ And yes, the PM2 is a good example: Certainly a very well made knife and blade, and its rather fine tip is really usefull.
But to be honest: I think it would be hard to find a somewhat realistic "hard use task" where it REALLY benefits from its comparably thicker stock, and where a 3mm stock (instead of the current 3.7 mm) PM2 blade would break.
While on the other hand: All other things being exactly the same, but with a blade in 3.00 mm instead of 3.7mm: The PM2 would be a slightly even better performer in many tasks.

[fixall]

All I can say is that at work cutting polywrap, cardboard, polypropylene straps, and even popping zipties (as long as they're not ridiculously tight) is no problem for my knives with thinner stock (Chaparral, etc), but I feel a lot more comfortable using something thicker like the Para 3, Native 5, Lil' Native, etc when it comes to polyester strapping, double thick cardboard, or really tight zipties. I have noticed chipping when cutting those materials with my thinner knives (to be fair, I sometimes take my edges thin bladed knives to a lower angle than my thicker knives), but it's not just that. The subtle feel of the blade flexing when I have to slide a thin blade under tight polyester straps just doesn't feel right to me.

[Wartstein]

Opinel #8 has a thickness of 1.65mm

It's an extreme slicer, which should hold up for cutting normal things quite well.

Maybe its an American way to overbuilt...?

If I am in the military I would prefer having an more overbuilt knife, but for light EDC / kitchen tasks the thinner the better.

Wartstein: Thanks for bringing this topic up. You threads are always on the edge and rattling things up - in a good way.

Ric, thanks for your kind words!
I am glad if from time to time things that I find to be interesting and worth to be discussed are also of interest for others! :)

[prndltech]

For me hard use would be field use, but then IMO that means a fixed blade.

Pocket knives are not really what I would consider "hard use" tools in that since.

Yes there are folders that are bricks and yes they really can take rough use, but a fixed blade would still be a better option.

There are some exceptions like the Strider SmF and CRK Sebenza 25 or ZAAN etc that really can take harder use like prying and they aren't bricks....

If people pry with their folders then they shouldn't be surprised when they break it.

Contrary to popular belief, pivots are not the weak point in a folder. The blade or handles will always fail first and usually it’s the blade. So therefore a fixed blade of the same stock would snap at the same point as a folder. There are many fixed blades that would snap before an xm-18.

This is of course assuming we’re talking about well made knives with well made pivots. I agree with the second half of your post for sure! :D

[prndltech]

Thin tips with thick blade stock gives people false hope in that they can force the thin tip into a tight space and use the thick blade stock to really pry something lol. Spyderco had to change from pointy tips to less pointy tips on the Delica and endura platforms bc people were snapping the tip left and right. Gen 3 vs gen 4.

No argument here. Prying with a folder (whether thin- or thick-bladed, whether the fulcrum is at the tip or back along the spine where its thicker) is not within its design-parameters, so you takes yer chances, or lessen them with a fixed-blade, as Jim says.

I challenge that statement. Hinderer, Emerson, microtech Socom elite, Strider knives and Medford all pry vary well. As stated above, the pivot is not the weak point. It has nothing to do with being a folder. As long as the blade is thick enough (roughly 0.125 seems to be the magic number) saying all folders aren’t designed to pry because folders aren’t designed for that just isn’t true.

[curlyhairedboy]

For me the tip geometry is my primary consideration when I think about hard use. Tough materials like reinforced hoses sometimes require some twisting, and I want the tip to survive binding without breaking. I wouldn't consider using the Watu for that, while the Shaman is perfect for it.

It's also one of the reasons I'm excited to see the tanto pm2.

[Wartstein]

Contrary to popular belief, pivots are not the weak point in a folder. The blade or handles will always fail first and usually it’s the blade. So therefore a fixed blade of the same stock would snap at the same point as a folder. There are many fixed blades that would snap before an xm-18.

This is of course assuming we’re talking about well made knives with well made pivots.

This is interesting! I would have assumed that if the blade is buried very deep into material (so not much of the blade sticking) out and you´d then "pry" = put lateral pressure on the knife, the pivot would have a good chance to break... but that´s pure guessing, not backed up by any real experience!