M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
I wrote an article describing the difference in process between different powder metallurgy production companies making knife steels. I also did experiments to analyze the different products including carbide size, impurity levels, and inclusions. And comparisons between toughness of similar steels from different manufacturers. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/30/ ... echnology/
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Nice, Thank you! this is my favorite group of stainless steels!
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanks, Larrin, I'm glad you did this. Hopefully this will help dispel the "M390 is better because it is third generation" belief that seems to be common. They all use a third generation process, their own proprietary modification of the second generation process, and call it different things. Only the Europeans use the "generation" name.
Last edited by Chumango on Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- thewoodpecker
- Member
- Posts: 495
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:58 pm
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanks for the information as alway Larrin. Very informative and educational. Just goes to show you can't always believe the ad copy.
Spyderco Caly 3.5 Super Blue user, Astute enthusiast, and geometry advocate.
-
- Member
- Posts: 6147
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:30 am
- Location: Unfashionable West End of the Galaxy (SE USA)
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Another excellent article! Thank you. It helps dispel the clouds of marketing that hide the mountains of facts.
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
“Maybe the cheese in the mousetrap is an artificially created cheaper price?” -Sal
Friends call me Jim. As do my foes.
M.N.O.S.D. 0001
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Great article. I've actually done side by side comparisons with PM2s and found that I like 204p the best, but there are so many variables in there (different production runs, etc). It's great to see some science. Thanks Larrin!
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanks Larrin, great article!
-David
still more knives than sharpening stones...
still more knives than sharpening stones...
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanx Larrin,
Good stuff.
sal
Good stuff.
sal
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Great article. Thank you.
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Good stuff Larrin!
Always enjoy the read / science behind it.
My PM2 CTS-204P performs at a high level.
C
Always enjoy the read / science behind it.
My PM2 CTS-204P performs at a high level.
C
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Always makes me laugh when people say they prefer one over another. I don't have any 204p, but have a lot of 20cv, and some m390. It's all good stuff!
Spyderco : Resilience, Tenacious, Persistence, Manix 2 G10, Para 3 G10, Para 3 LW, Paramilitary 2,
BBS Paramilitary 2, Amalgam, Native Chief, Blade HQ Manix 2 XL, S30V Shaman, Gayle Bradley 2, DLC M4 Shaman, Magnitude, Z Wear Shaman, DLC S30V Shaman, Stretch 2, Kapara, CF/S90V Native Chief, Endela, K390 Endura, DLT 20cv Zome Endela x 2, Police 4 LW K390, SNK Native Chief, SNK Manix 2 XL, K390 Stretch 2, Stretch 2 XL, K390 Endela
BBS Paramilitary 2, Amalgam, Native Chief, Blade HQ Manix 2 XL, S30V Shaman, Gayle Bradley 2, DLC M4 Shaman, Magnitude, Z Wear Shaman, DLC S30V Shaman, Stretch 2, Kapara, CF/S90V Native Chief, Endela, K390 Endura, DLT 20cv Zome Endela x 2, Police 4 LW K390, SNK Native Chief, SNK Manix 2 XL, K390 Stretch 2, Stretch 2 XL, K390 Endela
- kennethsime
- Member
- Posts: 4788
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:28 pm
- Location: California
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
So for the less-literate amongst us, yes Bohler makes cleaner steel with fewer impurities & inclusions, but carbide content makes a much bigger difference in steel performance and they're all very good.
Right?
Right?
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Good stuff, thank you.
My experience is limited. With the knives I have, I like the M390 best because it's a Para 3, great HT and grind.
My only 20CV not so much, of course it's "another" brand, and a Co that is known for a soft HT and no full flat grind.
I have a Southard in 204P that is quite good.
Got to get another CPM 20CV.
My experience is limited. With the knives I have, I like the M390 best because it's a Para 3, great HT and grind.
My only 20CV not so much, of course it's "another" brand, and a Co that is known for a soft HT and no full flat grind.
I have a Southard in 204P that is quite good.
Got to get another CPM 20CV.
SCARAMOUCHE!
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Best of all worlds :)
I haven't given the Military much use yet, until this week when it will be my only knife carried. The 20CV Manix was very impressive a few weeks ago, the M390 Para 3 I actually chipped the blade last year when hitting a hidden copper staple in a box. I've had it blunt a little easier than other knives in "lesser" steels as well. It's surprised me a bit, and not in a good way. Not terrible, but hasn't ever performed like the "mighty M390" I had always heard about.
I haven't given the Military much use yet, until this week when it will be my only knife carried. The 20CV Manix was very impressive a few weeks ago, the M390 Para 3 I actually chipped the blade last year when hitting a hidden copper staple in a box. I've had it blunt a little easier than other knives in "lesser" steels as well. It's surprised me a bit, and not in a good way. Not terrible, but hasn't ever performed like the "mighty M390" I had always heard about.
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanks everybody this was a really fun comparison to do. I always assumed the differences were bigger than they are.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
-
- Member
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:00 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Thanks for all your amazing work, Larrin. I feel lucky to have gotten into this hobby at a time when so much solid science is being done.
Quick question that may have been answered before - any chance we’ll see S90V and S110V added to the comparison charts? I’ve been curious how their toughness/hardness compare since the corrosion tests comparing them to this family of steels.
Quick question that may have been answered before - any chance we’ll see S90V and S110V added to the comparison charts? I’ve been curious how their toughness/hardness compare since the corrosion tests comparing them to this family of steels.
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Another good comparison would be between S90V and CTS-20CP.
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
I heat treated S90V and S110V samples last August-September and sent them to someone for machining. Still waiting for them.Theldraskien wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:09 pmThanks for all your amazing work, Larrin. I feel lucky to have gotten into this hobby at a time when so much solid science is being done.
Quick question that may have been answered before - any chance we’ll see S90V and S110V added to the comparison charts? I’ve been curious how their toughness/hardness compare since the corrosion tests comparing them to this family of steels.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives
- araneae
- Member
- Posts: 5496
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm
- Location: A lil more south of the Erie shore, Ohio
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Just curious, do the foundries ever respond to your publications?
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut
The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
Re: M390 vs 20CV vs 204P - 3rd Generation Powder Metallurgy
Not publicly. I've talked to people from Crucible or formerly from Crucible for several articles. I talked to the designer of XHP from Carpenter when writing that article. I've never heard from anyone at Bohler or Uddeholm.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives