CPM S110V -- How long will it hold edge at narrow angle?

[Blerv]

I don't have a knife in 110v but a number of reground ones from razorsharp and a ZDP-189 Stretch that was done by Brad Southard a few years ago. The Stretch sees more action than my other knives, never chips, and is extremely easy to sharpen.

I'm fairly certain a ZDP-189 Caly3.5 or Caly Jr is 30 degrees inclusive out of the box and that steel more temperamental 110v. Personally...I'd angle it down and see what you think. If you aren't chipping the OEM geometry it's the natural step.

[Steel_Drake]

You shouldn't really need to go less than 15 degrees per side on any knife.

I'm not sure that's a very defensible statement considering that the overwhelming majority of Scandinavian ground knives have edge bevels in the 10-12 degree per side range with no microbevels at all and yet are both commonly used and highly advocated for bushcrafting type use--including lots of wood cutting--where the demands placed on apex stability would be expected to be very high compared to those faced by the majority of folding knives.

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

Don't you think it makes more sense to choose the steel to support the desired use case and edge geometry, rather than trying to tailor the edge geometry and use case to the steel?

In addition, if you take the case of 10 degree per side edge bevel and 20 degree per side microbevel compared to a knife reground as you specify, the edge with the microbevel will actually be thicker--and therefore stronger--for the first ~0.00265" behind the apex, as pictured:



So, unless you are asserting that the damage is likely to begin further behind the apex than the entire width of a 20 degree per side microbevel and propagate downwards into the microbevel, I'm not sure why you would assume that an apex set at 15 degrees per side with no microbevel would be stronger?

Just as an indication of the dramatic difference a microbevel can make to the strength of an apex, you can compare the extent of microscopic chipping produced on the apex of a Spyderco Mule Team in Maxamet at ~15 degrees per side with no microbevel, and at ~15 degrees per side with a ~17-19 dps microbevel, in deliberately abusive bamboo whittling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBgVQLc9R6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXQq1-H4cM

I actually at one pointed tested a 20 dps microbevel on that Maxamet Mule Team off camera and found it could handle that type of bamboo chopstick whittling with no microscopic apex damage whatsoever.

Note that this is not intended to advocate for thinner edge geometries or the steels that support them. People need to choose the edge geometries and steels that support their individual needs and preferences.

[Bodog]

You shouldn't really need to go less than 15 degrees per side on any knife.

I'm not sure that's a very defensible statement considering that the overwhelming majority of Scandinavian ground knives have edge bevels in the 10-12 degree per side range with no microbevels at all and yet are both commonly used and highly advocated for bushcrafting type use--including lots of wood cutting--where the demands placed on apex stability would be expected to be very high compared to those faced by the majority of folding knives.

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

Don't you think it makes more sense to choose the steel to support the desired use case and edge geometry, rather than trying to tailor the edge geometry and use case to the steel?

In addition, if you take the case of 10 degree per side edge bevel and 20 degree per side microbevel compared to a knife reground as you specify, the edge with the microbevel will actually be thicker--and therefore stronger--for the first ~0.00265" behind the apex, as pictured:



So, unless you are asserting that the damage is likely to begin further behind the apex than the entire width of a 20 degree per side microbevel and propagate downwards into the microbevel, I'm not sure why you would assume that an apex set at 15 degrees per side with no microbevel would be stronger?

Just as an indication of the dramatic difference a microbevel can make to the strength of an apex, you can compare the extent of microscopic chipping produced on the apex of a Spyderco Mule Team in Maxamet at ~15 degrees per side with no microbevel, and at ~15 degrees per side with a ~17-19 dps microbevel, in deliberately abusive bamboo whittling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBgVQLc9R6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXQq1-H4cM

I actually at one pointed tested a 20 dps microbevel on that Maxamet Mule Team off camera and found it could handle that type of bamboo chopstick whittling with no microscopic apex damage whatsoever.

Note that this is not intended to advocate for thinner edge geometries or the steels that support them. People need to choose the edge geometries and steels that support their individual needs and preferences.

Don't really care whatever bunk you come up with. Sorry if that disappoints you. You have your opinions which serve you. Doesn't matter if it's correct or not. And you can find whatever that supports you and leads you to act like you're saying something. You're not. You're twisting things to make them fit your own notions, even my statements, and completely ignoring everything else. That's ok. People do that on the Internet and I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you. I've never said zero grinds are bad or useless or anything. I've never said really acute angles are unnecessary. I've said with what's on the market this way or that way to do things would be beneficial given x and y variables. You're **** bent on following whatever cliff stamp says and I don't understand why. Even if the knife and steel wasn't designed for whatever you're trying so hard to push it into.

[Surfingringo]

FFS, put the egos away boys. You've both made some excellent and educational points. Thank you both for the information.

[me2]

I'm thisclose to getting a PM2 in S110V, but I'm a little concerned that I'll have the same problem with S110V that I have with S30V--namely, that I have to put an angle at or near 40° at the edge if I want to keep that edge around for any length of time. Sure, a reasonable working edge will be there for a long time--but I'll be honest; I'm not really a reasonable guy.

What I like to do with my M4 and ZDP189 knives is put a primary bevel of 24° on with diamond stones and then maintain a secondary bevel of 30° with the Sharpmaker. Is anybody using S110V in a configuration similar to this? If so, how long before a screaming edge settles into a working edge, and can the working edge still, e.g., shave arm hair?

The general notion is to use an edge angle as low as you can without the edge suffering from lack of strength. I first read this in Leonard Lee's book on sharpening, and it makes sense for anyone trying to get the most out of their tools/knives. This will naturally depend on the task and the skill of the user. Also, many people are perfectly happy with 25 dps edges, so there's no reason to lower the edge angle.

That said, I have a slip joint that was used and sharpened at 8 degrees per side (14 degrees inclusive), with a 10 degree per side (dps) microbevel. For all but the heaviest work I did at the time, which was cutting electrical wire, that low an angle held up pretty good. That knife has gotten too thick for easy resharpening, so I don't carry it anymore.

[ctrikard]

May have been slightly steeper than 30incl, I sorta eyed it

Do you do regrinds for people and if so how much for a manix in s11o or a para 3 in m390?

[JD Spydo]

In the past 6 months or so I've been doing all my blades at 20 degrees except for a few of my VG-10 models. For some reason I really like VG-10 at a narrow angle as far as penetration and a really wicked edge.

As far as S110V goes I treat it about the same as I do M390. Oh sure you can tell that both of those steels have slightly different properties but they both seem to do well at 20 degrees. I also went back to stropping both of these steels and I also do a bit of burnishing with my F. Dick smooth sharpening steel. And I have great performance out of both of them.

[Pelagic]

I think there may have been some unmentioned CQI on the heat treat of s110v over the years. I have never experienced chipping that was unexpected on s110v and I usually sharpen it around 25dps at most.

[vivi]

You shouldn't really need to go less than 15 degrees per side on any knife.

I'm not sure that's a very defensible statement considering that the overwhelming majority of Scandinavian ground knives have edge bevels in the 10-12 degree per side range with no microbevels at all and yet are both commonly used and highly advocated for bushcrafting type use--including lots of wood cutting--where the demands placed on apex stability would be expected to be very high compared to those faced by the majority of folding knives.

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

Don't you think it makes more sense to choose the steel to support the desired use case and edge geometry, rather than trying to tailor the edge geometry and use case to the steel?

In addition, if you take the case of 10 degree per side edge bevel and 20 degree per side microbevel compared to a knife reground as you specify, the edge with the microbevel will actually be thicker--and therefore stronger--for the first ~0.00265" behind the apex, as pictured:



So, unless you are asserting that the damage is likely to begin further behind the apex than the entire width of a 20 degree per side microbevel and propagate downwards into the microbevel, I'm not sure why you would assume that an apex set at 15 degrees per side with no microbevel would be stronger?

Just as an indication of the dramatic difference a microbevel can make to the strength of an apex, you can compare the extent of microscopic chipping produced on the apex of a Spyderco Mule Team in Maxamet at ~15 degrees per side with no microbevel, and at ~15 degrees per side with a ~17-19 dps microbevel, in deliberately abusive bamboo whittling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBgVQLc9R6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXQq1-H4cM

I actually at one pointed tested a 20 dps microbevel on that Maxamet Mule Team off camera and found it could handle that type of bamboo chopstick whittling with no microscopic apex damage whatsoever.

Note that this is not intended to advocate for thinner edge geometries or the steels that support them. People need to choose the edge geometries and steels that support their individual needs and preferences.

Don't really care whatever bunk you come up with. Sorry if that disappoints you. You have your opinions which serve you. Doesn't matter if it's correct or not. And you can find whatever that supports you and leads you to act like you're saying something. You're not. You're twisting things to make them fit your own notions, even my statements, and completely ignoring everything else. That's ok. People do that on the Internet and I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you. I've never said zero grinds are bad or useless or anything. I've never said really acute angles are unnecessary. I've said with what's on the market this way or that way to do things would be beneficial given x and y variables. You're **** bent on following whatever cliff stamp says and I don't understand why. Even if the knife and steel wasn't designed for whatever you're trying so hard to push it into.

lol, now I remember why you're on my ignore list. You spout ignorance with an air of imagined authority then act like an infant when someone shows you the science of why you're wrong. On that list you'll remain

[Pelagic]

You shouldn't really need to go less than 15 degrees per side on any knife.

I'm not sure that's a very defensible statement considering that the overwhelming majority of Scandinavian ground knives have edge bevels in the 10-12 degree per side range with no microbevels at all and yet are both commonly used and highly advocated for bushcrafting type use--including lots of wood cutting--where the demands placed on apex stability would be expected to be very high compared to those faced by the majority of folding knives.

I'd challenge you to buy that S110V knife and send it off for a regrind of about .010" behind the edge and increase the secondary bevel to about 15 to 17 dps and see if you like the performance better than most other steels you've used. I'd bet you would. And I say that because of changing the geometry makes big differences. I'm not even a big fan of S110V.

Don't you think it makes more sense to choose the steel to support the desired use case and edge geometry, rather than trying to tailor the edge geometry and use case to the steel?

In addition, if you take the case of 10 degree per side edge bevel and 20 degree per side microbevel compared to a knife reground as you specify, the edge with the microbevel will actually be thicker--and therefore stronger--for the first ~0.00265" behind the apex, as pictured:



So, unless you are asserting that the damage is likely to begin further behind the apex than the entire width of a 20 degree per side microbevel and propagate downwards into the microbevel, I'm not sure why you would assume that an apex set at 15 degrees per side with no microbevel would be stronger?

Just as an indication of the dramatic difference a microbevel can make to the strength of an apex, you can compare the extent of microscopic chipping produced on the apex of a Spyderco Mule Team in Maxamet at ~15 degrees per side with no microbevel, and at ~15 degrees per side with a ~17-19 dps microbevel, in deliberately abusive bamboo whittling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBgVQLc9R6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXQq1-H4cM

I actually at one pointed tested a 20 dps microbevel on that Maxamet Mule Team off camera and found it could handle that type of bamboo chopstick whittling with no microscopic apex damage whatsoever.

Note that this is not intended to advocate for thinner edge geometries or the steels that support them. People need to choose the edge geometries and steels that support their individual needs and preferences.

Don't really care whatever bunk you come up with. Sorry if that disappoints you. You have your opinions which serve you. Doesn't matter if it's correct or not. And you can find whatever that supports you and leads you to act like you're saying something. You're not. You're twisting things to make them fit your own notions, even my statements, and completely ignoring everything else. That's ok. People do that on the Internet and I'm sure you'll find someone who agrees with you. I've never said zero grinds are bad or useless or anything. I've never said really acute angles are unnecessary. I've said with what's on the market this way or that way to do things would be beneficial given x and y variables. You're **** bent on following whatever cliff stamp says and I don't understand why. Even if the knife and steel wasn't designed for whatever you're trying so hard to push it into.

lol, now I remember why you're on my ignore list. You spout ignorance with an air of imagined authority then act like an infant when someone shows you the science of why you're wrong. On that list you'll remain

His account doesn't exist anymore, so technically he's on everyone's ignore list.

[vivi]

Shows how much I pay attention

[Shane77]

I keep my s110v pm2 at 15° per side and it performs flawlessly. There was a learning curve working with s110v, for me any way. But now that I've learned about the steel and know how to deal with it, it's now one of my favorites. I have never had any major problems with chipping, and it holds a nice edge for a long time.
In my experience, it doesn't respond to stropping as well as most other steels, but that would be my only bugaboo with s110v.