s30v spyderco's acceptable

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Thanks for the informative reply. I already own and use both a Hapstone 7 and Wicked edge pro3 with diamond stones, Silicone carbide strops etc.

Things I would think might help would be bevel angle, degree of finished polish, thinning behind the blade, bur removal, wire blade removal hints and tips and other things.

For example single 15 degree bevel no micro bevel finish at what Grit? 600, 800, 1000 sub micron stropping?

Should one strop to get rid of bur or wire edge with S30V ?

Things like this.

[Albatross]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

And to bring out the best in S30V what are those factors?

[youmakemehole]

Thanks a lot for reply, appreciate that!

But I think I did not make my point clear enough in my question:

In fact I DO get very good results (for my needs) on S30V just with my basic sharpmaker and NO CBN- or diamond- rods... I was wondering, if that is due to that I never let get my blade REALLY dull, or if I could achieve even BETTER results using a CBN- or diamond rod. As said, I am really satisfied with my results on brown and white rods and always thought using a diamond rod would just result in FASTER, but not in BETTER sharpening (concerning the results...)

Oh sorry that was my mistake, I thought I was still talking to doesaspider... :p I think if you are making maintenance fairly regular, and are getting good results on a vanadium steel you can still be getting even better results with the proper sharpeners that are hard enough. Of all the vanadium steels/high carbide steels S30V and S35V are the most forgiving if you are sharpening them with only non diamond/cbn stones. For your specific case I would not get diamond though... I wont go into details why its a little bit too nuanced but I think you would really find that ruby rod set i mentioned earlier very useful. You get 6 rods that range from 2mm to 10mm, they will cut and leave amazing finishes on all carbide heavy supersteels, and best of all, the whole set is only $20. If you like doing regular touch ups they are perfect since you dont have to bust out your entire sharpmaker, just stick a few rods in your pen holder or desk drawer and you can start and finish with a hair popping edge off any SxxV by the time it takes you to finish a youtube video. You will have probably the best set of sharpeners for Spyderedge serrations as well, no need to ever worry about what to sharpen those with again.

[Albatross]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

And to bring out the best in S30V what are those factors?

It's mostly the same as any other steel; make sure you have a nice apex, make sure the bur is completely gone, and strop if you like. This can all be done with a basic Sharpmaker setup(medium and fine rods). I hand sharpen and use the Sharpmaker rods by themselves for bur removal. VERY light (less than the weight of the knife) passes on the corners does the trick. It seems that people miss some of the bur on S30V and many other powdered steels, which gives less than desirable results. S30V works well around 600-800 grit for me, as it is then able to utilize the carbide more. 15 DPS and no micro bevel.

[youmakemehole]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

AS much as I love watching Steve he tends to jump too quickly to conclusions on a lot of the theories he tries to figure out. I don't think anything I said earlier suggested that carbide tearout necessarily happened during sharpening, I said what happens is the weaker steel gets removed, and you have a suboptimal edge that is not as stable as one without the steel removed. Sure carbides get torn out during use either way. you just dont want oit to prematurely happen especially to an already unstable edge. You want it to happen as slowly as possible to well sharpened and defined edge made of the carbides as well as all the softer steel that is supposed to be surrounding it.

[vivi]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

And to bring out the best in S30V what are those factors?

It depends on the application.

If you're using your S30V knife to push cut veggies in the kitchen, you want a thinner, more polished edge than if you're using it to slice a lot of rope, where a coarse edge is superior.

Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit.

Personally I think coarser, toothier edges plays to the strengths of this steel better, but either type of finish can work. I've done 8dps 8000 grit hair whittling sharp edges on S30V, but these days I finish it on my medium Spyderco bench stone.

[Albatross]

All steels with a lot of vanadium carbide will require diamonds or cbn to get a good edge...


...Vanadium carbide is very hard, harder than most stones and compounds. So if you use sharpeners that are not hard enough, you may eitehrt not sharpen your knife at all or get something called carbide tear out which is where you erode away the softer surrounding metal with your sharpeners and then end up with a very unstable edge of vanadium carbide that end up all popping off since they arent supported well...

Super steel Steve showed this to be a myth. Carbide tearout generally only happens during use, not sharpening, and is intended to work that way, as it aids in keeping a working edge for longer.

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

AS much as I love watching Steve he tends to jump too quickly to conclusions on a lot of the theories he tries to figure out. I don't think anything I said earlier suggested that carbide tearout necessarily happened during sharpening, I said what happens is the weaker steel gets removed, and you have a suboptimal edge that is not as stable as one without the steel removed. Sure carbides get torn out during use either way. you just dont want oit to prematurely happen especially to an already unstable edge. You want it to happen as slowly as possible to well sharpened and defined edge made of the carbides as well as all the softer steel that is supposed to be surrounding it.

Fair enough. It wasn't immediately clear what you meant; during or after sharpening. I apologize for making that assumption.

Steve does tend to jump to conclusions, and often has to eat crow, but showed testing that proved there is no difference in edge retention between sharpenings on diamond and alumina-based stones.

[Albatross]

...Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit...

Exactly.

I forget who said it, but you should be able to shave with the most coarse stone you use, before progressing. If you can do that, you'll have a great edge, no matter the steel.

[vivi]

...Either way you want a clean apex with no detectable bur and at least shaving sharpness, regardless of grit...

Exactly.

I forget who said it, but you should be able to shave with the most coarse stone you use, before progressing. If you can do that, you'll have a great edge, no matter the steel.

Absolutely. If I can get a clean shave off my reprofiling stone I don't progress.

[youmakemehole]

Are you sure you get the same edge? I couldve sworn ive seen pictures of 2 side by side edges, one sharpened with diamond and one without - the one without had an apex that was rougher, less clean, and you could see the bumps very visibly where carbides stuck out of the steel where the softer surroundings have been eroded. The edge made with diamond was clean and crisp with straight lines, the vanadium carbides were cut on the same lines as everything else, and each side of the apex was flat like it should be. I don't think its accurate to make judgements based on one youtuber's single experiment.. is your opinion based off your own experiences as well? Cause i can promise you that mine are! Supersteel steve also just has this bias where he is bent on disproving every established bit of commonly accepted steel understanding, which, props to him, some of them are wrong indeed and should be challenged, but some are ridiculously and incorrectly "busted" so to speak, one I can remember off the top of my head was where he somehow interpreted the results of 3 different knives in 3 different steels in 3 different tests to imply that heat treats to a lower HRC for the same given steel never in any cases produce higher toughness, and therefore a higher HRC is always better, that was just completely wrong from the start and I don't know if he ever corrected himself after. Either way, if you already have a preconceived bias for a certain something, your experiment and resulting data will likely be biased and at the very least the interpretation of the data will be biased for sure.

[Wartstein]

Thanks a lot for reply, appreciate that!

But I think I did not make my point clear enough in my question:

In fact I DO get very good results (for my needs) on S30V just with my basic sharpmaker and NO CBN- or diamond- rods... I was wondering, if that is due to that I never let get my blade REALLY dull, or if I could achieve even BETTER results using a CBN- or diamond rod. As said, I am really satisfied with my results on brown and white rods and always thought using a diamond rod would just result in FASTER, but not in BETTER sharpening (concerning the results...)

Oh sorry that was my mistake, I thought I was still talking to doesaspider... :p I think if you are making maintenance fairly regular, and are getting good results on a vanadium steel you can still be getting even better results with the proper sharpeners that are hard enough. Of all the vanadium steels/high carbide steels S30V and S35V are the most forgiving if you are sharpening them with only non diamond/cbn stones. For your specific case I would not get diamond though... I wont go into details why its a little bit too nuanced but I think you would really find that ruby rod set i mentioned earlier very useful. You get 6 rods that range from 2mm to 10mm, they will cut and leave amazing finishes on all carbide heavy supersteels, and best of all, the whole set is only $20. If you like doing regular touch ups they are perfect since you dont have to bust out your entire sharpmaker, just stick a few rods in your pen holder or desk drawer and you can start and finish with a hair popping edge off any SxxV by the time it takes you to finish a youtube video. You will have probably the best set of sharpeners for Spyderedge serrations as well, no need to ever worry about what to sharpen those with again.

Thank you!! :)

[Wartstein]

Diamond/CBN are more helpful for speeding up the process, nothing more. Edge finish, angle, and bur removal are the important factors.

That´s what I thought too... I mean, as far as my logic goes, a sharpening device ALWAYS has to be harder than the steel it sharpens (almost by definition), and the difference between stones is merely how FAST it will give results... ?!

[Albatross]

Are you sure you get the same edge? I couldve sworn ive seen pictures of 2 side by side edges, one sharpened with diamond and one without - the one without had an apex that was rougher, less clean, and you could see the bumps very visibly where carbides stuck out of the steel where the softer surroundings have been eroded. The edge made with diamond was clean and crisp with straight lines, the vanadium carbides were cut on the same lines as everything else, and each side of the apex was flat like it should be. I don't think its accurate to make judgements based on one youtuber's single experiment.. is your opinion based off your own experiences as well? Cause i can promise you that mine are! Supersteel steve also just has this bias where he is bent on disproving every established bit of commonly accepted steel understanding, which, props to him, some of them are wrong indeed and should be challenged, but some are ridiculously and incorrectly "busted" so to speak, one I can remember off the top of my head was where he somehow interpreted the results of 3 different knives in 3 different steels in 3 different tests to imply that heat treats to a lower HRC for the same given steel never in any cases produce higher toughness, and therefore a higher HRC is always better, that was just completely wrong from the start and I don't know if he ever corrected himself after. Either way, if you already have a preconceived bias for a certain something, your experiment and resulting data will likely be biased and at the very least the interpretation of the data will be biased for sure.

I did not say you will get the same edge, I said Steve showed no difference in edge retention. His other tests and theories are a separate topic. In my experience with S30V, using diamond and alumina, I haven't seen a difference. Maybe with something like S110V I would see a difference, but I'm only speculating there. If you notice a difference, it could be the material(s) you cut vs what I cut. Honestly, if we need to look under a microscope to find differences, I'm not convinced that translates well into noticable real world results.

[youmakemehole]

Thanks for the informative reply. I already own and use both a Hapstone 7 and Wicked edge pro3 with diamond stones, Silicone carbide strops etc.

Things I would think might help would be bevel angle, degree of finished polish, thinning behind the blade, bur removal, wire blade removal hints and tips and other things.

For example single 15 degree bevel no micro bevel finish at what Grit? 600, 800, 1000 sub micron stropping?

Should one strop to get rid of bur or wire edge with S30V ?

Things like this.

Finishing at 600 grit and 1000 grit diamond will be great for S30V. I'm currently trying out a 4k almost-mirror polished edge from ruby stones on muy Ikuchi, so i will likely report back here some time int eh near future on how that went. Also if you strop, make sure you are using diamond compounds ONLY.

[BigKenbo]

S30V is great and works well for the desired price / performance point they're going for on new releases to make them available to more people. I do wish they would run some production 20CV or similar on the Golden line like they did with S110V and Rex 45 but I guess they're leaving it to exclusives? The cost doesn't seem to be much more so I wish they would run it in production. Esp if it means I can get a Golden made knife in a color other than black and blurple

I was looking at a bunch of threads, and it seems the issue with some steels is simply the availability for more than very limited runs, and just as importantly, apparently a lot of them come in round bar stock. It may be the machines and processes needed to take round to flat would make the resulting knives too expensive. Hey im not the expert, but i kind of put that together from several sources. Hope it helps.

[Woodpuppy]

First and foremost: I totally respect and appreciate your obviously elaborated and valid opinion!
But allow me to share some thoughts on it:

- You write, and I may quote you:

"I have found that there are steels that resist staining better than S30v; there are steels which are easier to sharpen and which also have better toughness and edge retention, though at the expense of corrosion resistance. There are steels which are easy to put a really wicked edge on, and that’s fun in its own right. They won’t hold that edge long, but are so easy to bring back."

As I see it, you could put a lot of other steels in place of the (highlighted) S30V, couldn´t you? So that is nothing specifically against (or for) S30V imho.

- You say, you never used Spydercos S30V. So, just a thought: Couldn´t it be that trying out their S30V (at least one time), and comparing it against the one used by other companies, indeed could be interesting for you and "give you pleasure to use"?

That´s just a suggestion of course, I really have not intention to make everyone liking S30V, just cause I do... It´s just that even in my quite limited experience I found, that S30V done by different companies really can behave quite differently: I find it easy to sharpen in my Spydercos, while still having more than adequate edge holding (for my needs); on the other hand, the S30V my white river backpacker is made of (a knife I really like, don´t get me wrong), is really notiveable harder to sharpen (again: I am not good enough at sharpening to really beeing able to distinguish precisely how much of this is really plainly due to the steel, and what amount maybe is due to other factors)

Hi Wartstein,

I think the key message of my (admittedly long winded) post is that I developed a grudge against s30v, that my sharpening skills have since improved such that my former nemesis has been vanquished, and having beaten it, am done with it. After all, grudges are slightly irrational. I’m good with that :D

[koenigsegg]

I was looking at a bunch of threads, and it seems the issue with some steels is simply the availability for more than very limited runs, and just as importantly, apparently a lot of them come in round bar stock. It may be the machines and processes needed to take round to flat would make the resulting knives too expensive. Hey im not the expert, but i kind of put that together from several sources. Hope it helps.

It could be an availability issue but I don't think it's cost. I've seen as little as $7 difference in retail price between S30V and 20CV. I just don't wanna pay scalpers prices for a knife and I never have the money when it comes for sale at a retailer.

[youmakemehole]

Are you sure you get the same edge? I couldve sworn ive seen pictures of 2 side by side edges, one sharpened with diamond and one without - the one without had an apex that was rougher, less clean, and you could see the bumps very visibly where carbides stuck out of the steel where the softer surroundings have been eroded. The edge made with diamond was clean and crisp with straight lines, the vanadium carbides were cut on the same lines as everything else, and each side of the apex was flat like it should be. I don't think its accurate to make judgements based on one youtuber's single experiment.. is your opinion based off your own experiences as well? Cause i can promise you that mine are! Supersteel steve also just has this bias where he is bent on disproving every established bit of commonly accepted steel understanding, which, props to him, some of them are wrong indeed and should be challenged, but some are ridiculously and incorrectly "busted" so to speak, one I can remember off the top of my head was where he somehow interpreted the results of 3 different knives in 3 different steels in 3 different tests to imply that heat treats to a lower HRC for the same given steel never in any cases produce higher toughness, and therefore a higher HRC is always better, that was just completely wrong from the start and I don't know if he ever corrected himself after. Either way, if you already have a preconceived bias for a certain something, your experiment and resulting data will likely be biased and at the very least the interpretation of the data will be biased for sure.

I did not say you will get the same edge, I said Steve showed no difference in edge retention. His other tests and theories are a separate topic. In my experience with S30V, using diamond and alumina, I haven't seen a difference. Maybe with something like S110V I would see a difference, but I'm only speculating there. If you notice a difference, it could be the material(s) you cut vs what I cut. Honestly, if we need to look under a microscope to find differences, I'm not convinced that translates well into noticable real world results.

Well, see thats kinda my point. If we get a different edge one that is not defined/formed as cleanly, that also breaks down faster, it would seem strange to have the same retention. This is where any bias could've influenced the data - there are other factors Steve is in control of that could influence those numbers in addition to just the edge. Also, I am not accusing him of this btw, but there is always a chance somebody is just straight up lying to save face or not to look stupid in front of their audience aka source of income. Knowing that there are many ways a single source can be fallible means an objective person is not going to base their own personal opinions 100% on a single source, but rather multiple sources, and ideally do their best to create their own opinions based off of their own experiences as well. I believe Michael Christy has a differing opinion on this topic, one that is more closely aligned with mine. My opinion is what it is after I felt like I have collected enough information from separate sources, as well as the context behind those opinions, and try to get some first hand exposure as well before I go around and tell people what I think is fact. I would highly encourage many people on this forum to strive to be collectors of perspective as well, the more perspectives you have, the more superior yours will be which is formed from aggregating all those perspectives.

[p_atrick]

It could be an availability issue but I don't think it's cost. I've seen as little as $7 difference in retail price between S30V and 20CV. I just don't wanna pay scalpers prices for a knife and I never have the money when it comes for sale at a retailer.

Cost is more than just the price you pay. If 20CV takes longer to grind, then you have an opportunity cost in producing 20CV over S30V. Also, you probably have to go through more/different types of abrasives. I don't do any amateur knife making myself, so I can say how much longer it takes or how much better abrasives cost. Perhaps somebody else could chime in, but I think the cost goes beyond the price of the steel itself.