Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Carbon fiber has wildly different material properties based on how it's made. The kind used in race cars isn't what you get in a knife handle. On a knife it's pretty much only for decoration and raising the cost. I've had no trouble with the laminate on my Domino or Gayle Bradley. G-10 is great and I like the look and texture of the CF laminate. If that saves me $40 or more then that's a win.
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
I love all the second guessing in this thread. Producing consumer goods is a tough business, you have to make tough choices. Products that can’t be made with a certain profit margin simply don’t get made.
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Dang, I came all the way to page 6 to say ^^^^ this ^^^^ and you said it better...or at leat more concisely. :D
The increase in knife prices across manufacturers (not just Spyderco) has been outpacing my personal increases in income. Obviously this means increased competition for my disposable income (and sadly fewer knife purchases overall
In my mentality, I have certain price barriers that are a bit more transcendent than implied by the actual price difference. They occur in $50 increments up to $250 (above that and you’ve got to compare favorably to very high end stuff).
Using the Brouwer as an example, TBH at MAP $175 it’s a tough sell for me, but still a consideration in my $150-200 bracket. It would be a definate no-go for me above $200, even with a Ti liner, CF, or 20CV. $200-250 is a tough bracket for me, even if the difference is only dinner at Chili’s—I have vere few knives in that bracket, FWIW.
Priced below (or maybe even at) $150 it would be an instant buy, but I’m guessing it wouldn’t meet margins.
It’s gotta be a tough business trying to figure out the sweet spot for development, manufacturing, margins, competition, consumer pricing, etc. I wish Spyderco the best in this endeavor and hope there continue to be a few knives in their catalogue that find my personal “sweet spot.”
Last edited by Big50 on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Fair enough. A great analogy that rings true! :DJacksonKnives wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 amTry insisting that "no corners were cut" when you present a ring that is intended to appear just like a flawless diamond, but isn't a diamond.
I knew this knife (Domino and Dice actually) used a CF laminate before I bought it, and I also got it at a nice close it discount price. I will say at it's original street price I felt it was too expensive. I have seen a couple of Spydies that were in my opinion priced too high - but I never felt they cut corners. A CF laminate is perfectly fine, if it's priced accordingly.
To me cutting corners means putting out a product with less than acceptable materials and workmanship. Maybe I am just splitting words.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Why couldn't it be to provide the aesthetic of CF with the durability of G10?JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 amSo far as we can tell, the *only* reason for the laminate construction is to make the textured CF affordable.
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sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Because that's a sour grapes attitude. I've never had CF crack or chip, and Spyderco seems happy to use solid slabs of it when they are forced to (sculpted handles.) You can't have it both ways.bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:29 amWhy couldn't it be to provide the aesthetic of CF with the durability of G10?JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 amSo far as we can tell, the *only* reason for the laminate construction is to make the textured CF affordable.
If the textures/patterns we see out of Taichung are *only* available in laminate, and Spyderco can't get the manufacturer to do them any other way, it's a catch 22.
I don't think people understand that, though; they just see a solid slab of CF on a knife from another maker beside a laminate slab from Spyderco and assume that Spyderco did it to cut costs. If the weave could be marketed as "proprietary spyder-weave" or something it may help, though when I see claims of "proprietary" on materials that aren't obviously and notably different that bothers me even more.
...
Deep breath
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I'm not upset about the laminate, and I'm happy with how it functions. But, as a "prestige" decorative material, it's a compromise. I'd rather not have it at all than know it's a laminate for the sake of cost-efficient fancy materials.
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
One person’s second guessing is another’s consumer focus group. True, most of what is said here is perception, but lots of companies pay big dollars to know how their customers perceive the products and learn what the market will bear. Threads like this are gold for spyderco.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Attitude is irrelevant. Whether you have never had CF crack or chip is also irrelevant.JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:40 am
Because that's a sour grapes attitude. I've never had CF crack or chip, and Spyderco seems happy to use solid slabs of it when they are forced to (sculpted handles.) You can't have it both ways.
If true, which it may or may not be, this would be a manufacturing decision, not a thing Spyderco would be forced to do. Are you assuming that Spyderco really wants pure CF but is unable to provide it?JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:40 amIf the textures/patterns we see out of Taichung are *only* available in laminate, and Spyderco can't get the manufacturer to do them any other way, it's a catch 22.
You seem upset. However, your preferences aside, bearfacedkiller's question goes unanswered. It is quite possible that people like the combination of a CF weave on the surface, and tough, stable G10 underneath.JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:40 amI don't think people understand that, though; they just see a solid slab of CF on a knife from another maker beside a laminate slab from Spyderco and assume that Spyderco did it to cut costs. If the weave could be marketed as "proprietary spyder-weave" or something it may help, though when I see claims of "proprietary" on materials that aren't obviously and notably different that bothers me even more.
...
Deep breath
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I'm not upset about the laminate, and I'm happy with how it functions. But, as a "prestige" decorative material, it's a compromise. I'd rather not have it at all than know it's a laminate for the sake of cost-efficient fancy materials.
I just have trouble parsing your response to the question.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Hi Mcgirt,
There is always something happening somewhere in the world. That's one of the reasons we choose to have makers in different parts of the world. When we were only making knives in Seki, we were always concerned that an earthquake to stop production for moths.
Hey Zhyla, JR,
There are also highs and lows in firearms. There are some firearms that are rare, cool and very expensive. There are knives like that as well. While we don't necessarily think of certain knives for collectors, we do thing that some will have high intrinsic value just because of what it is and who created it. Like old world daggers and swords. These are modern "very special" projects". The Darn Dao, from Bob Lum, The Proficient by Crhris Claycomb, some of our very high end folders that are very difficult to make , are expensive, and probably won't go a 2nd run.
sal
There is always something happening somewhere in the world. That's one of the reasons we choose to have makers in different parts of the world. When we were only making knives in Seki, we were always concerned that an earthquake to stop production for moths.
Hey Zhyla, JR,
There are also highs and lows in firearms. There are some firearms that are rare, cool and very expensive. There are knives like that as well. While we don't necessarily think of certain knives for collectors, we do thing that some will have high intrinsic value just because of what it is and who created it. Like old world daggers and swords. These are modern "very special" projects". The Darn Dao, from Bob Lum, The Proficient by Crhris Claycomb, some of our very high end folders that are very difficult to make , are expensive, and probably won't go a 2nd run.
sal
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:40 amBecause that's a sour grapes attitude. I've never had CF crack or chip, and Spyderco seems happy to use solid slabs of it when they are forced to (sculpted handles.) You can't have it both ways.bearfacedkiller wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:29 amWhy couldn't it be to provide the aesthetic of CF with the durability of G10?JacksonKnives wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:30 amSo far as we can tell, the *only* reason for the laminate construction is to make the textured CF affordable.
How is your assumption different than mine. You discredit mine because you think I am looking at it through rose colored glasses. I could do the same and say that you are just being cynical. We are both making assumptions and neither one is more right than the other.
I have butter fingers and I have dropped quite a few of my knives. I dropped my Sage3 on tile and it got a very minimal scuff. I am not making excuses for why they use the laminate. I genuinely feel as though CF is an inferior material for knife handles and think that the laminates could be an attempt at providing a more durable material with similar aesthetics.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Hi Big50,
Welcome to our forum.
That's why we try hard to make models in a wide variety of prices.
Hey Jackson,
I don't think Spyderco is "forced" to do anything in the making of a knife. We select the materials that we think are appropriate for each model. Eric, the managers and I make those decisions. Sometimes the designer has preferences to which we try to abide. We work for the ELU (End Line User) and that is whom we try to please. Design, materials, costs and prices are always considered carefully with the ELU in mind.
Many in business think that the way they think others do business is the same as the way they do business because of the values they apply to their own business. Perhaps you need to learn more about "the Spyderco Way" of doing business? And I am happy to answer any questions you might have. We try very hard to be a model American business. What's proprietary is something like materials that we use, some manufacturing methods that we've created or even financial info. I believe we're far more transparent than you think we are.
In answer to the Jackson/Killer discussion, We use the laminate for aesthetics, durability and lower cost, which we believe most customers prefer? Why would we use a high cost steel in a model and then try to cut corners on the scales?
sal
Welcome to our forum.
That's why we try hard to make models in a wide variety of prices.
Hey Jackson,
I don't think Spyderco is "forced" to do anything in the making of a knife. We select the materials that we think are appropriate for each model. Eric, the managers and I make those decisions. Sometimes the designer has preferences to which we try to abide. We work for the ELU (End Line User) and that is whom we try to please. Design, materials, costs and prices are always considered carefully with the ELU in mind.
Many in business think that the way they think others do business is the same as the way they do business because of the values they apply to their own business. Perhaps you need to learn more about "the Spyderco Way" of doing business? And I am happy to answer any questions you might have. We try very hard to be a model American business. What's proprietary is something like materials that we use, some manufacturing methods that we've created or even financial info. I believe we're far more transparent than you think we are.
In answer to the Jackson/Killer discussion, We use the laminate for aesthetics, durability and lower cost, which we believe most customers prefer? Why would we use a high cost steel in a model and then try to cut corners on the scales?
sal
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Makes sense to me.
My answer to the OP's question is, "Why not?" The question is about cutting costs, not quality.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
I understand that it's a deliberate decision, carefully weighed.
In the context of the history of the material, and especially Spyderco's use of the material in key models (there have been many, but I'm thinking about Golden-made peel ply sprints), the value of a laminate changes to a negative net value over G10 *for some people.*
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Hi Jackson,
We recognize that, obviously by threads like this one. It's difficult to determine the number of folks that would prefer one over the other. CF used in Golden is usually solid. We use the laminate in the Taichung factory because they have it available and it does save a few dollars. What surprises me is that some choose to think that we are somehow being deceptive or hiding something, or doing something we shouldn't be doing?
sal
We recognize that, obviously by threads like this one. It's difficult to determine the number of folks that would prefer one over the other. CF used in Golden is usually solid. We use the laminate in the Taichung factory because they have it available and it does save a few dollars. What surprises me is that some choose to think that we are somehow being deceptive or hiding something, or doing something we shouldn't be doing?
sal
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
SAl, it's your company so you can do what you want. If folks don't like what is offered they won't buy it, it's that simple. That being said, it seems to me that Spyderco has and continues to produce a high quality product that is backed up with excellent customer service. Sounds like a winning business model to me. :)sal wrote: ↑Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:41 pmHi Jackson,
We recognize that, obviously by threads like this one. It's difficult to determine the number of folks that would prefer one over the other. CF used in Golden is usually solid. We use the laminate in the Taichung factory because they have it available and it does save a few dollars. What surprises me is that some choose to think that we are somehow being deceptive or hiding something, or doing something we shouldn't be doing?
sal
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Re: Cost Cutting on Spyderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Sal,
I have to say, you are about as transparent as it gets. It's kind of astonishing, but very much appreciated. I just find it interesting why business decisions are made.
You have to know by now, that your not going to make everyone happy. Running a business is not easy. If I am not happy with a knife, etc. I just don't buy it and or sell it and move on. Knives come, knives go.
#there-will-always-be-more.
#small-stuff
Wouldn't be here if you weren't doing it right.
C
I have to say, you are about as transparent as it gets. It's kind of astonishing, but very much appreciated. I just find it interesting why business decisions are made.
You have to know by now, that your not going to make everyone happy. Running a business is not easy. If I am not happy with a knife, etc. I just don't buy it and or sell it and move on. Knives come, knives go.
#there-will-always-be-more.
#small-stuff
Wouldn't be here if you weren't doing it right.
C
Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Thank you, Sal. Everyone has a different sweet spot. For me you nailed it with the Rhino. I love that little guy and it’s really well put together. It’s my first knife with the CF laminate; I think it suits the knife well. No complaints at all. I like the look and I like the texture.
Overall, think G-10 is an amazing material. The polished G-10 on my Hungarian is bedazzling. I know it’s planned for the Tropen. I hope you keep something with that finish in your lineup.
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Re: Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?
Marketing is very tricky. Repeatedly focus groups will pick pineapple juice as their fav juice in blind taste tests, and yet it sells at the bottom of the list.sal wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:29 pmYou guys are funny. For flat slabs, we use laminated G-10/carbon fiber. For 3D carbon fiber handles, we use solid carbon fiber. I've never heard anyone complain about our tranparency before? If you ask the question, unless it' proprietary, I usually answer. Seems like if we're not "in trouble" with some for cutting corners, we're "in trouble" with those for being too expensive?
sal
Re: Cost Cutting on High End Models, Why?
Sometimes also +$500 things are not high end but only a bunch of crap.
G.Sakai is selling the Ultimate Hunter, a not so big fixed blade made in collaboration with Kitano Katsumi.
It consists of 67 hrc Zdp189 Katakiriba asymmetrical edge blade, with mirror polished double-bevel side, naval brass guards and butt and you can choice stag/desert ironwood/black polished micarta for the scales.
For $490.
Or you can double your budget and buy a super practical Medford D2 folding wedge.
What of the two is more high end?