Cost Cutting on Sprderco's Higher End Models, Why?

[Calicoast]

While I do listen to all of the opinions and suggestions by our customers, we will make our decisions based on our own value system.

Sal,
Can I ask why knives are chosen to be manufactured in plants outside of the USA?, i.e. the Chicago and D'allara?

Both of those names hold more weight to me being USA made, over value?
C

[dreadpirate]

I have a Domino and a Dice; I think they are both well made. No corners were cut as far as I am concerned.

[vivi]

Cf can have such a variety of appearance but I’m a bit on cf overload. It’s on everything these day. It’s in car trim, bicycles, knives...surprised they aren’t making beer cans of cf.
I like g10 just as much.
I do really like marbles cf on the myrtle. It’s solid but I would like it just as much if it was a laminate. The peel ply feels great, but appearance is just ok.

It makes a much bigger difference in bikes than knives

[JacksonKnives]

Sal,
Can I ask why knives are chosen to be manufactured in plants outside of the USA?, i.e. the Chicago and D'allara?

Both of those names hold more weight to me being USA made, over value?
C

Not Sal, but I know capacity is always a concern for Spyderco. (I think they expanded about ten years ago, around the time the PM2 and Manix 2 took off.)
PM2s fly off the shelves and retailers are asking for exclusive sprints all the time, so a lot of US production capacity gets tied up. This probably also why, for example, the Shaman hasn't seen a sprint run announcement.

The trickier question is, will anything ever get taken away from the Seki manufacturing partners. They're Spyderco's oldest partners, but the exchange rate and shifting manufacturing priorities make Seki models less and less competitive. If the exchange rate flips back and the Delica can be $40 without some kind of hostile contract re-negotiation, great... but Spyderco is losing ground in that market segment while various newcomers are edging out even the established old budget-line competitors.

It's a funny business, though. We don't know what the sales numbers are across the different manufacturers, though I'd guess that if you bought enough drinks at blade show you could compile a very interesting analysis.

[Calicoast]

Sal,
Can I ask why knives are chosen to be manufactured in plants outside of the USA?, i.e. the Chicago and D'allara?

Both of those names hold more weight to me being USA made, over value?
C

Not Sal, but I know capacity is always a concern for Spyderco. (I think they expanded about ten years ago, around the time the PM2 and Manix 2 took off.)
PM2s fly off the shelves and retailers are asking for exclusive sprints all the time, so a lot of US production capacity gets tied up. This probably also why, for example, the Shaman hasn't seen a sprint run announcement.

The trickier question is, will anything ever get taken away from the Seki manufacturing partners. They're Spyderco's oldest partners, but the exchange rate and shifting manufacturing priorities make Seki models less and less competitive. If the exchange rate flips back and the Delica can be $40 without some kind of hostile contract re-negotiation, great... but Spyderco is losing ground in that market segment while various newcomers are edging out even the established old budget-line competitors.

It's a funny business, though. We don't know what the sales numbers are across the different manufacturers, though I'd guess that if you bought enough drinks at blade show you could compile a very interesting analysis.

Funny business indeed. I wonder about that as well on how things will play out in the future (exchange, tariffs, manufacturing decisions, etc.)

A wise man once told me: "Some of the hardest things in life are the things you know you have to do".
C

[Tucson Tom]

Anyhow, hope my response didn't annoy anyone. :)

I you had annoyed me, then I wouldn't be thinking about it. So I guess at this point I can't say one way or the other.

But thanks anyhow.

[Tucson Tom]

Somebody was complaining early on about the use of a CF layer laminated over G10. I have a Gayle Bradley 1 that has that material. At first I was sort of annoyed by it, but then I realized that it actually may be better (more gooder) or at any rate just as good. That knife is clearly not using CF for weight savings, nobody complains about the CF layer delaminating. It actually looks pretty good, so my thinking has come full circle and I think it is just fine.

I don't demand expensive materials just for their own sake. So many times titanium is just used as an expensive sales gimmick in all kinds of things, but it is a nice material and I am glad to have several knives with titanium and full up carbon fiber. I'm not seeing any dramatic weight savings. In fact just weighing my CF/Ti Military, I get 4.78 ounces and my G10 CTS-204p model is 4.25 ounces. So all those fancy exotic materials actually increased the weight by about 0.5 ounces. Do I think one is stronger than the other? Who knows -- either is more than strong enough for whatever they may be called upon to do. So all those fancy materials are just cosmetics and good looks -- which certainly is nothing to sneeze at. If I just want a knife to cut things, either one is superb. When it comes to beauty and fashion, it is all in the eye of the beholder.

[Bloke]

Anyhow, hope my response didn't annoy anyone. :)

I you had annoyed me, then I wouldn't be thinking about it. So I guess at this point I can't say one way or the other.

But thanks anyhow.

Ah, hahaha! :)

[JacksonKnives]

I have a Domino and a Dice; I think they are both well made. No corners were cut as far as I am concerned.

To be fair to the original poster:

Spyderco used to call this handle material "carbon fiber." We discovered that it was not, in fact, the same texture all the way through. When pressed, Sal admitted that it's G10 inside and Spyderco started using "laminated carbon fiber and G10" in the descriptions to avoid confusion/deception.

So far as we can tell, the *only* reason for the laminate construction is to make the textured CF affordable.

If I just want a knife to cut things, either one is superb. When it comes to beauty and fashion, it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Part of the problem with this equation in this specific case is that CF (in knives) is primarily a decorative material, but its decorative value is intrinsically and inextricably linked to its material properties. This value is also related to its scarcity/cost.

There's no sacrifice in objective, measurable performance. The laminate might even be better for a few reasons compared to the solid CF that's available...
...but try telling a woman that a moissanite engagement ring is "objectively just as good as, if not better than," a diamond ring.
Try insisting that "no corners were cut" when you present a ring that is intended to appear just like a flawless diamond, but isn't a diamond.
Try asking your wife to accept that "it's in the eye of the beholder" and that she can get past the discrepancy between appearance and reality.

Authenticity has real value to people. In knife scales, it's a small sacrifice, and fits nicely into Spyderco's value system, but it's a real sacrifice that some people care about. (The same goes for Dymondwood, come to think of it, which has enjoyed a kind of strange revival after being relegated to inexpensive kitchen and hunting knives for decades.)

I'd be happier with textured G-10 than the laminate CF. The patterns they've sourced are unique, attractive and functional enough that I don't avoid buying them or anything, but I'll always know it's a compromise in pursuit of having fancy materials at lower cost. It's not as much of a compromise as some manufacturers make in value-line CF handles, but it's real.

[MichaelScott]

If G10 is superior to carbon fiber for knife scales: less costly, easier to work with, more stable and structurally superior, similar in weight, etc. why would I prefer CF? Because it is more costly?

For some people that is important and I’m sure there are knives out there to satisfy them. For me, CF laminate looks cool, but I’ve always found that most of the G10 scales on Spydercos have a superior grip.

[SF Native]

If G10 is superior to carbon fiber for knife scales: less costly, easier to work with, more stable and structurally superior, similar in weight, etc. why would I prefer CF? Because it is more costly?

For some people that is important and I’m sure there are knives out there to satisfy them. For me, CF laminate looks cool, but I’ve always found that most of the G10 scales on Spydercos have a superior grip.

The issue of cf or g10 being superior is an interesting concept. Cf is stronger in almost all cases but it’s also prone to cracking and chipping. G10 might not have the strength but it’s more durable in my experience. For a knife that might be dropped and bumped into things in a pocket, that might be the better material.

[vivi]

If G10 is superior to carbon fiber for knife scales: less costly, easier to work with, more stable and structurally superior, similar in weight, etc. why would I prefer CF? Because it is more costly?

For some people that is important and I’m sure there are knives out there to satisfy them. For me, CF laminate looks cool, but I’ve always found that most of the G10 scales on Spydercos have a superior grip.

I think to some folks things like carbon fiber and high end steels are status symbols as much as anything. In a folding pocket knife carbon fiber isn't going to reduce weight over other materials by a significant margin.

That being said, I do enjoy the look of CF. But I'm also 100% happy with solid black FRN or G10, or G10/CF laminate.

[Philo Beddoe]

...but try telling a woman that a moissanite engagement ring is "objectively just as good as, if not better than," a diamond ring. Try insisting that "no corners were cut" when you present a ring that is intended to appear just like a flawless diamond, but isn't a diamond. Try asking your wife to accept that "it's in the eye of the beholder" and that she can get past the discrepancy between appearance and reality.

LOL if material things are all a woman is worried about then they get kicked to the curb..

[sal]

You guys are funny. For flat slabs, we use laminated G-10/carbon fiber. For 3D carbon fiber handles, we use solid carbon fiber. I've never heard anyone complain about our tranparency before? If you ask the question, unless it' proprietary, I usually answer. Seems like if we're not "in trouble" with some for cutting corners, we're "in trouble" with those for being too expensive?

sal

[MichaelScott]

Well, to paraphrase Lincoln, “you can’t please all of the people all of the time.”

[sal]

While I do listen to all of the opinions and suggestions by our customers, we will make our decisions based on our own value system.

Sal,
Can I ask why knives are chosen to be manufactured in plants outside of the USA?, i.e. the Chicago and D'allara?

Both of those names hold more weight to me being USA made, over value?
C

Hi Calicoast,

As mentioned by Jackson, capacity in the Golden plant. Also, it's very difficult to find makers that can consistently meet our quality and delivery requirements. When we find them, we like to work with them more as partners than vendors. I worked with the grandfather and the father and now Eric works with the son. We've been working with some of our makers for more than 35 years.

sal

[steelcity16]

If G10 is superior to carbon fiber for knife scales: less costly, easier to work with, more stable and structurally superior, similar in weight, etc. why would I prefer CF? Because it is more costly?

For some people that is important and I’m sure there are knives out there to satisfy them. For me, CF laminate looks cool, but I’ve always found that most of the G10 scales on Spydercos have a superior grip.

The issue of cf or g10 being superior is an interesting concept. Cf is stronger in almost all cases but it’s also prone to cracking and chipping. G10 might not have the strength but it’s more durable in my experience. For a knife that might be dropped and bumped into things in a pocket, that might be the better material.

+1 I sold my carbon fiber knives in favor of FRN and G10. The peel ply texture on Spyderco's G10 is amazing and the different FRN patterns are all awesome, from the bi-directional pattern to the older volcano pattern on my Salt 1s, Pac Salts, and Spyderhawk. The FRN pattern on the Chaparral is very nice and I can't wait to try the Caly Jr I just ordered. I do enjoy a matte textured micarta on fixed blades, so I am excited to try the micarta Cruwear Shaman! Carbon fiber has actual become a deal breaker for me at this point, laminated, solid, or otherwise. I want a 52100 Para 3, but I don't want the CF scales. I feel it is more for looks/status/flashiness. And with G10 being cheaper by a decent amount, I just don't see the point anymore in a functional user knife.

[Calicoast]

While I do listen to all of the opinions and suggestions by our customers, we will make our decisions based on our own value system.

Sal,
Can I ask why knives are chosen to be manufactured in plants outside of the USA?, i.e. the Chicago and D'allara?

Both of those names hold more weight to me being USA made, over value?
C

Hi Calicoast,

As mentioned by Jackson, capacity in the Golden plant. Also, it's very difficult to find makers that can consistently meet our quality and delivery requirements. When we find them, we like to work with them more as partners than vendors. I worked with the grandfather and the father and now Eric works with the son. We've been working with some of our makers for more than 35 years.

sal

Thanks for the reply Sal.
Loyalty holds weight with me as well.
35yrs is 35yrs.

#Spyderco-loyalty.
C

[PStone]

With all this talk of overseas production In Japan, the one thing that keeps crossing my mind is, the natural disasters they’ve had to deal with as of late. I sure hope everyone and their families are safe over there.

[JRinFL]

Gotcha. One thing to keep in mind is every price point is high or low to somebody. Apparently if I owned a pickup truck a $175 knife would be a beater. For me having nice knives and lots of them is a luxury. I can afford a lot more, but I guess they’re just not worth it to me. When knives start approaching firearm pricing I just find other things to be interested in.

The pure sanity of this response required it be quoted for posterity. :)