Updated shaman sprint steel poll

[Deadboxhero]

From what i read people seem to prefer the ease of sharpening and the type of edge Cruwear gives. Cause it doesn't seem to be better in the standard toughness, corrosion resistance and edge retention points compared to similar well rounded steels like 3V or M4. I guess the difference is in the little things you can't always measure.
I don't care too much about about corrosion resistance and with the thick blade on the shaman i don't think toughness is a big issue. So i personally would aim for a steel with more edge retention.

I like this steel chart from Gary Creely to compare steels. It's not perfect science and complete, but gives a nice guideline.

People read the chart and do a basic analysis. Recast your votes.

According to Rutgers "Gary Creely chart," the best steel option is 204P, and that was my choice. People should have looked at the chart and changed their vote, Cruwear is negligibly better than what the Shaman is made of now!

No

[The Mastiff]

No

I agree. You want to tell people you don't know what is best for them and you use as your basis a chart not remotely accurate. ?

Joe

[Deadboxhero]

I'm not picking on Gary Creely, I know him. He is a solid guy and wants to help by giving people an idea about how the steels relate to each other

But it's more complicated and lots of questions aren't answered in the chart

If you use critical thinking the chart falls apart.

How were the knives tested to get the data?

What geometry was used?

How were they sharpened?

Were they sharpened properly?

What HRC was choosen?

How were they heat treated? Was it executed perfectly?

I test alot of knives, it's difficult to keep track of all the variables. It takes time and multiple testing to confirm a piece of data.




Then we run into the problem of people running around shoving charts in peoples faces and touting it as fact.

No.

[ugaarguy]

Hopefully Spyderco makes the Shaman in 204P / M390 / 20CV, but it seems most folks here want a carbon steel blade. If Spyderco doesn't offer an M390 equivalent, there are the Benchmade 550-1 and 551-1 Griptilians with 20CV blades 3D machined G10 handles for less money than the S30V Shaman. Knifeworks also has a 551 exclusive with Micarta handle and M390 blade for even a bit less.

I actually think a tougher stainless like Elmax or Vanax makes more sense on a big, thick blade, folder like the Shaman than one of M390 triplets, but that opinion is even less popular here.

[Deadboxhero]

Hopefully Spyderco makes the Shaman in 204P / M390 / 20CV, but it seems most folks here want a carbon steel blade. If Spyderco doesn't offer an M390 equivalent, there are the Benchmade 550-1 and 551-1 Griptilians with 20CV blades 3D machined G10 handles for less money than the S30V Shaman. Knifeworks also has a 551 exclusive with Micarta handle and M390 blade for even a bit less.

I actually think a tougher stainless like Elmax or Vanax makes more sense on a big, thick blade, folder like the Shaman than one of M390 triplets, but that opinion is even less popular here.

Yup, so you can see why we want Cruwear, there aren't any offerings on the market in that steel.

Plenty of ZT and Benchmade offerings in that steel.

It's good stuff but it doesn't take an edge like CRUWEAR or have the edge stability.

[ugaarguy]

Yup, so you can see why we want Cruwear, there aren't any offerings on the market in that steel.

Plenty of ZT and Benchmade offerings in that steel.

It's good stuff but it doesn't take an edge like CRUWEAR or have the edge stability.

Yup, I get it, but I have corrosive sweat so I'm really wary of carbon steel - particularly in a folder where my sweat can get trapped in the pivot.

[Deadboxhero]

Yup, so you can see why we want Cruwear, there aren't any offerings on the market in that steel.

Plenty of ZT and Benchmade offerings in that steel.

It's good stuff but it doesn't take an edge like CRUWEAR or have the edge stability.

Yup, I get it, but I have corrosive sweat so I'm really wary of carbon steel - particularly in a folder where my sweat can get trapped in the pivot.

I suffer the same problem, I also live in Oregon, everything rusts here. Cruwear is not as reactive as it's carbon tool steel cousins.
I've had no issues with my cruwear para3, or the pm2 that I had owned.

No oiling. Just kept it dry.

[bearfacedkiller]

People read the chart and do a basic analysis. Recast your votes.

According to Rutgers "Gary Creely chart," the best steel option is 204P, and that was my choice. People should have looked at the chart and changed their vote, Cruwear is negligibly better than what the Shaman is made of now!

That chart does not match some of my own personal experiences. I actually disagree with quite a bit of it. Is it a handy reference? Sure. Is it something that should be treated as an absolute? No way. He even says that on his page. Why present his data as gospel when he does not?

He lists M4 as being less wear resistant than 204P. That has not been my experience.

He lists Elmax's toughness as way lower than XHP.

He lists 3V and Cruwear as having low corrosion resistance but I have actually had far more corrosion issues with S30V than Cruwear.

I think a lot of that chart is based on the chemical compositions of the steels but in my experience some steels seem to defy what they are supposed to be. He also bases some of it on Cedric's testing which also contradicts some of my experiences. Cedric uses a Worksharp in an attempt to achieve consistency but I have issues with testing that uses a powered sharpening device. I appreciate Cedric's testing as well as Creely's chart. They put in the effort to compile data and that is a generous contribution to the knife community but they are both just points of reference.

I believe in science and in the knife community we have far more anecdotal evidence and regurgitated opinions than we do actual science. The biggest issue with the scientific approach is that there are so many variables to steel performance and the scientific approach requires that you remove all variables but one and that is a lofty challenge. For that reason we are forced to take all of the anecdotal evidence into account. My stance has settled on the theory that the best thing for me to do is to figure out what works best for me given my uses and preferences and that what works for me may not work for someone else and that my experiences may not match the experiences of another person.

I am happy that you like M390/204P/20CV. Certainly a good steel with a strong fan base. As far as telling me that it is what I should want, no thank you. I will like what I like. :) I stand by my opinion that Cruwear is the best balance of properties of any steel I have used. It is quite good in every category and doesn't fall short in any category. It is, for me, the steel that makes the least compromises.

[steelcity16]

Right now I'm pitching for a CF Shaman in S90V. I heard rumors that some distributors were thinking of exclusives?

sal

The above quote was from the Rex45 thread...

With this poll, I think it is clear that Cruwear is the most popular choice for the Shaman. So I was honestly shocked when I heard Sal talking about a Shaman dealer exclusive possibly being in S90V. I would think a Shaman in Cruwear would pretty much an instant sellout, especially with Peel Ply Carbon Fiber scales. Same if BHQ does an M4/Jade G10. I'd buy both of those in an instant, with my preference going to the Cruwear, but I would pass on the S90V. This is THE platform to do some more interesting steels like Cruwear, 4V, 3V, V4E, PD1, LC200N, and others that are known for "toughness" in what looks like a "tough" folder. I think there are a lot of S90V/S110V options out there and the hype is slowing down for them, where there is a lot of pent up demand for folders in tougher tool steels. I mean look how well the BHQ M4/Jade knives sell. They continue to sell out either instantly or at least within a few weeks. And that is even with so many people moaning and complaining about how they hate natural G10. Rex45 has quite a bit of hype around it already as well with it's similarity to M4 and Hap40. I think if they would have released the Shaman with the others in Rex45 it would have the most hype of them all since it would be the first Shaman sprint, and in a "tough" tool steel. Just my opinion. I know we will see a Shaman in something like this eventually. Just a matter of time.

[Sjucaveman]

Right now I'm pitching for a CF Shaman in S90V. I heard rumors that some distributors were thinking of exclusives?

sal

The above quote was from the Rex45 thread...

With this poll, I think it is clear that Cruwear is the most popular choice for the Shaman. So I was honestly shocked when I heard Sal talking about a Shaman dealer exclusive possibly being in S90V. I would think a Shaman in Cruwear would pretty much an instant sellout, especially with Peel Ply Carbon Fiber scales. Same if BHQ does an M4/Jade G10. I'd buy both of those in an instant, with my preference going to the Cruwear, but I would pass on the S90V. This is THE platform to do some more interesting steels like Cruwear, 4V, 3V, V4E, PD1, LC200N, and others that are known for "toughness" in what looks like a "tough" folder. I think there are a lot of S90V/S110V options out there and the hype is slowing down for them, where there is a lot of pent up demand for folders in tougher tool steels. I mean look how well the BHQ M4/Jade knives sell. They continue to sell out either instantly or at least within a few weeks. And that is even with so many people moaning and complaining about how they hate natural G10. Rex45 has quite a bit of hype around it already as well with it's similarity to M4 and Hap40. I think if they would have released the Shaman with the others in Rex45 it would have the most hype of them all since it would be the first Shaman sprint, and in a "tough" tool steel. Just my opinion. I know we will see a Shaman in something like this eventually. Just a matter of time.

I won't buy one in s90v.

[Pelagic]

Yeah, I'll pass on the s90v shaman as well.

CRUWEAR NATION!

[Tucson Tom]

Who is Gary Creely? He has Elmax as one of his least tough stainless steels. Alpha Knife Supply says Elmax is of the toughest stainless steels they've tested. I'm confused.

Exactly. Who is this guy and why do we care about this chart? And what the heck do the yellow and green lines mean that seem to randomly jump up and down. This graph is lame (and I have seen it before elsewhere). OK, wait, I see, there is a legend. So this graph shows us steels ordered by the "blue" attribute which is this fellows notion of edge retention, as though that is the all important thing. We really need 3 graphs, ordered by each of the attributes, but also add what is increasingly important to me, ease of sharpening to an amazing edge.

That rant aside, I voted for Cruwear since it is my latest fascination. M4 would be swell too -- I don't particular care what color scales. Pink would be OK. I'm bored with stainless, but CTS 204P would probably be my choice in that arena. S90V is fine, but would produce no excitement.

The Shaman is an interesting knife, and I would be happy to own one someday. The main problem right now is that I am way overbudget in the knife spending department due to a flood of tremendous opportunities lately. So I will be happy if nothing new comes along in this model until 2019 or so.

[Deadboxhero]

Perhaps in Sals testing and HT, s90v shows the most performance?

It seems to be Spydercos favorite premium steel.

I'd rather have Cruwear specifically for the Shaman since I feel there are more options and better choices to highlight the performance on S90v in thinner blades and Cruwear would have better synergy on a thicker piece like the Shaman.

Eh, Whatever, maybe on day. I'll be happy without

I'mma a sucker and I'd probably still buy one in s90v and regrind the primary grind to get more out of the S90v buy dropping below 0.015" rather then the 0.026" factory behind the edge.

I'm sure that CF would be GOURGOUS anyway.

I really want Cruwear though

[dogrunner]

I like S90V for edge retention but I am onboard with all the calls for Cruwear for this particular model - the Shaman would be THE heavy duty worker in Cruwear. Dealer exclusive? BHQ likes its M4, KW has a history of CF/S90V, CS likes orange handles and black blades. Hmmm.

[bearfacedkiller]

I would be quite happy to see the Shaman included in the REX45 run. Throw the Manix Backlock into that run too. :)

[Surfingringo]

Yeah, I'll pass on the s90v shaman as well.

CRUWEAR NATION!

Yeah, same here. S90v holds very little interest for me on folders.

I think 3v is the right Steel for a shaman sprint but cruwear or 4v would probably sell better. I’d be interested in any of the 3 but I voted for 3v.

[swigert]

S90V. Ehhh. That’s a bummer.

[Deadboxhero]

CRUWEAR NATION UNITE!

[sal]

Hi, I selected S90V because:

1. I like S90V for wear resistance.
2. S90V wasn't listed in your poll.
3. I wanted to leave the more exotic requests for distributors.
4. You can be sure they are watching this thread and reading your preferences.

sal

[Smeadism]

Hi, I selected S90V because:

1. I like S90V for wear resistance.
2. S90V wasn't listed in your poll.
3. I wanted to leave the more exotic requests for distributors.
4. You can be sure they are watching this thread and reading your preferences.

sal

Hi Sal,

Does that mean theres a sprint S90V Shaman in the works? any idea of handle matierial? please leave the stonewash finish, as its one of my favorite things about this knife