where is Cliff Stamp?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Cliff, if you are able to take the time aside to do it, it would be very fascinating and interesting to see your analysis of a person on here who has been able to alter carbon steels to make them extremely durable over longer time periods. Here is the pasted data from his post:


by bluntcut » 06 Jul 2016 16:40

BluntCut MetalWorks heat treated steels attributes (referenced context below) are based on my Crystal Weaving Foundation(CWF). CFW has graduated into a small contribution to science. It will open a door to go outside of the current industry ht box/room - a broad area and depth to be explored by all of you.

Science Freedom - details of CFW 'how' & 'why' are to be widely presented and it should be easily replicated & applied. Applicability will stretch across the entire steel industry, where cutlery/edge-tool is a small sector in it. 'How' will be a general ht formula, and 'why' if you would like to understand chemistry & physics aspects/science of it.

This post (across multiple forums) declared my intention. I haven't shoot the 'how' video nor write up yet, so welcome to suggest better format etc..

Best regards,
==Luong

*** Hardness/strength 2+rc exceeded mfg's max rc is just an easy quantifier - other attributes are also important ***

BCMW 20160702 ht results

CPM-M4 69rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... elC-M4.htm
Elmax 65rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictur ... ypical.gif
S110V 65.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictur ... 10V-DS.pdf
CTS-XHP 67.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... CTSXHP.htm
CPM 10V 69.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... lC-A11.htm

29 minutes video - sorry, 2nd is fuzzy due to over heated camera
Whittled: oak, bamboo, lignum vitae argentine (LVA) and thin metal tube (at end of fuzzy video)
Chopped: oak, LVA

https://youtu.be/b21Rg8D97Ig

Edges after whittled thin metal tube (in video)
[ img ]

BCMW 20160615 66+rc W2 chop test at cryogenic(LN2) temperature - ** as stated - it's more than just hardness/strength ***
https://youtu.be/5-mVEp7BiLo

[RezinB]

I have always enjoyed Cliffs postings in the past on bladeforums. He was attacked often there only because knifemakers were insecure about their product and Cliff would test and damage knives that were supposedly not supposed to fail doing regular tasks. I appreciate his contributions to the knife world.

[RezinB]

Cliff, if you are able to take the time aside to do it, it would be very fascinating and interesting to see your analysis of a person on here who has been able to alter carbon steels to make them extremely durable over longer time periods. Here is the pasted data from his post:


by bluntcut » 06 Jul 2016 16:40

BluntCut MetalWorks heat treated steels attributes (referenced context below) are based on my Crystal Weaving Foundation(CWF). CFW has graduated into a small contribution to science. It will open a door to go outside of the current industry ht box/room - a broad area and depth to be explored by all of you.

Science Freedom - details of CFW 'how' & 'why' are to be widely presented and it should be easily replicated & applied. Applicability will stretch across the entire steel industry, where cutlery/edge-tool is a small sector in it. 'How' will be a general ht formula, and 'why' if you would like to understand chemistry & physics aspects/science of it.

This post (across multiple forums) declared my intention. I haven't shoot the 'how' video nor write up yet, so welcome to suggest better format etc..

Best regards,
==Luong

*** Hardness/strength 2+rc exceeded mfg's max rc is just an easy quantifier - other attributes are also important ***

BCMW 20160702 ht results

CPM-M4 69rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... elC-M4.htm
Elmax 65rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictur ... ypical.gif
S110V 65.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictur ... 10V-DS.pdf
CTS-XHP 67.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... CTSXHP.htm
CPM 10V 69.5rc - https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/zdata- ... lC-A11.htm

29 minutes video - sorry, 2nd is fuzzy due to over heated camera
Whittled: oak, bamboo, lignum vitae argentine (LVA) and thin metal tube (at end of fuzzy video)
Chopped: oak, LVA

https://youtu.be/b21Rg8D97Ig

Edges after whittled thin metal tube (in video)
[ img ]

BCMW 20160615 66+rc W2 chop test at cryogenic(LN2) temperature - ** as stated - it's more than just hardness/strength ***
https://youtu.be/5-mVEp7BiLo

If you know anything about HT's you know that often the manufacturers HT is a minimum and not a peak. I do not think bluntcut has done anything incredible or new, I think he is going where others have already gone before but do not talk about it much.

[bluntcut]

This thread is about Cliff, not moi. My CWF HT 'how to' is fully disclosed on BF.

[Cliff Stamp]

The gist of everything I've been reading seems to be that minimizing grain size is universally beneficial, and shrinking grain size further is a subject worth pursuing.

There are a few issues with grain size minimization in the extreme :

-loss of hardenability results quite dramatically
-the HT protocols are quite involved on the extreme end and even a minor mistake will undo the entire process

In short yes, reduction of grain size is generally preferred for strength, toughness and wear resistance. However beyond ASTM grain size 10 it starts getting complicated/costly, issues with hardenability arise and HT controls have to be high.

Have you got your hands on one of these Cliff?

Yes, I will write about it shortly (being a relative term).

Cliff, if you are able to take the time aside to do it, it would be very fascinating and interesting to see your analysis of a person on here who has been able to alter carbon steels to make them extremely durable over longer time periods. Here is the pasted data from his post

I have talked about BC on the forum, however this place likely isn't the best place for me to give commentary on another makers (not Spyderco related).

[Bodog]

I have always enjoyed Cliffs postings in the past on bladeforums. He was attacked often there only because knifemakers were insecure about their product and Cliff would test and damage knives that were supposedly not supposed to fail doing regular tasks. I appreciate his contributions to the knife world.

I don't think it's because cliff would actually test knives. That's actually a really appreciated venture as long as the person keeps it real and doesn't try to obfuscate with crazy, unreadable charts that end up showing nothing. I think it's that he has a hard time just talking with people. He tends to talk down to people and is a hardcore contrarian. He's pretentious. If he's blatantly wrong about something he does everything he can to lay out smoke and mirrors. And if someone provides proof to him and it contradicts his opinion he'll immediately shut down and start throwing the word shill out there. No one likes that kind of conversation.

Having said all that, he's obviously not a dumb guy. He's just a human like the rest of us and I don't think he means anything bad by it all. But cliff isn't spyderco and I wonder if this thread should be in off topic rather than the general spyderco forum. I do think he's added value to the knife community as a whole and has gotten a lot of knife enthusiasts to think about things in a more objective way which benefits the hobby even if he's wrong about certain things. Usually he's right but has a hard time expressing it without pissing people off. Some people can see through it and can accept it, some can't. He's obviously not looking for friends, he's looking for followers. His extreme overuse of the word "trivial" is, well, not trivial. He's gotten some pretty respectable people overusing the word, too, even in places where other words would be far more appropriate. But that's nitpicking.

All these things put together have led him to he banned on most forums, excluding his own, this one, and I thinK HFB. People just get tired of someone being a pretentious a-hole and unnecessarily trying to make people look stupid without being able to handle the same in return.

[Surfingringo]

Note to self: easy on "trivial" :p

[Cujobob]

I have always enjoyed Cliffs postings in the past on bladeforums. He was attacked often there only because knifemakers were insecure about their product and Cliff would test and damage knives that were supposedly not supposed to fail doing regular tasks. I appreciate his contributions to the knife world.

I don't think it's because cliff would actually test knives. That's actually a really appreciated venture as long as the person keeps it real and doesn't try to obfuscate with crazy, unreadable charts that end up showing nothing. I think it's that he has a hard time just talking with people. He tends to talk down to people and is a hardcore contrarian. He's pretentious. If he's blatantly wrong about something he does everything he can to lay out smoke and mirrors. And if someone provides proof to him and it contradicts his opinion he'll immediately shut down and start throwing the word shill out there. No one likes that kind of conversation.

Having said all that, he's obviously not a dumb guy. He's just a human like the rest of us and I don't think he means anything bad by it all. But cliff isn't spyderco and I wonder if this thread should be in off topic rather than the general spyderco forum. I do think he's added value to the knife community as a whole and has gotten a lot of knife enthusiasts to think about things in a more objective way which benefits the hobby even if he's wrong about certain things. Usually he's right but has a hard time expressing it without pissing people off. Some people can see through it and can accept it, some can't. He's obviously not looking for friends, he's looking for followers. His extreme overuse of the word "trivial" is, well, not trivial. He's gotten some pretty respectable people overusing the word, too, even in places where other words would be far more appropriate. But that's nitpicking.

All these things put together have led him to he banned on most forums, excluding his own, this one, and I thinK HFB. People just get tired of someone being a pretentious a-hole and unnecessarily trying to make people look stupid without being able to handle the same in return.

I would disagree. While he's human and sarcastic at times, who has contributed as much as he has? Do you know why he was banned from BF? If you search his name, you'll see one of two things: people bringing up the interesting information Cliff has posted about or a bunch of juvenile people making fun of the guy. People who debate using scientific evidence will generally come off cocky because they know the results of the data they've collected and read. While sometimes the data is based on testing the wrong thing or poorly run tests, it's still far better than having no information and discussing facts using 'I feel' statements. We should all want good knives, good steels, and for these products to get better and better. That doesn't get better by people saying, 'flame anodize the handle scales' or 'it needs more thumb studs.' Looks of a knife are subjective, performance really is not once you state the intended goal clearly.

[Bodog]

I have always enjoyed Cliffs postings in the past on bladeforums. He was attacked often there only because knifemakers were insecure about their product and Cliff would test and damage knives that were supposedly not supposed to fail doing regular tasks. I appreciate his contributions to the knife world.

I don't think it's because cliff would actually test knives. That's actually a really appreciated venture as long as the person keeps it real and doesn't try to obfuscate with crazy, unreadable charts that end up showing nothing. I think it's that he has a hard time just talking with people. He tends to talk down to people and is a hardcore contrarian. He's pretentious. If he's blatantly wrong about something he does everything he can to lay out smoke and mirrors. And if someone provides proof to him and it contradicts his opinion he'll immediately shut down and start throwing the word shill out there. No one likes that kind of conversation.

Having said all that, he's obviously not a dumb guy. He's just a human like the rest of us and I don't think he means anything bad by it all. But cliff isn't spyderco and I wonder if this thread should be in off topic rather than the general spyderco forum. I do think he's added value to the knife community as a whole and has gotten a lot of knife enthusiasts to think about things in a more objective way which benefits the hobby even if he's wrong about certain things. Usually he's right but has a hard time expressing it without pissing people off. Some people can see through it and can accept it, some can't. He's obviously not looking for friends, he's looking for followers. His extreme overuse of the word "trivial" is, well, not trivial. He's gotten some pretty respectable people overusing the word, too, even in places where other words would be far more appropriate. But that's nitpicking.

All these things put together have led him to he banned on most forums, excluding his own, this one, and I thinK HFB. People just get tired of someone being a pretentious a-hole and unnecessarily trying to make people look stupid without being able to handle the same in return.

I would disagree. While he's human and sarcastic at times, who has contributed as much as he has? Do you know why he was banned from BF? If you search his name, you'll see one of two things: people bringing up the interesting information Cliff has posted about or a bunch of juvenile people making fun of the guy. People who debate using scientific evidence will generally come off cocky because they know the results of the data they've collected and read. While sometimes the data is based on testing the wrong thing or poorly run tests, it's still far better than having no information and discussing facts using 'I feel' statements. We should all want good knives, good steels, and for these products to get better and better. That doesn't get better by people saying, 'flame anodize the handle scales' or 'it needs more thumb studs.' Looks of a knife are subjective, performance really is not once you state the intended goal clearly.

Definitely can't argue with the last part. The first part is because his name has kind of become a joke right, wrong, or indifferent. His good has been outweighed by the bad by a lot of people. I try to research and experience my own thing to see if I agree or not. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I agree with Ankerson, too, sometimes I don't (hasn't stopped me from talking to or respecting Jim as a man). I personally don't care about Cliff one way or another. He was putting out incorrect information about mono vs poly diamonds. I corrected him and he went to private messaging about how offended he was and I must be shilling for a guy selling poly diamond sprays. I forwarded to him scientific findings that I was leaning on. He shut off and said I was just a shill and left it at that. Then a certain maker asked me to test some knives and find other people to test knives for him. I asked Cliff if he wanted to participate because for whatever he is, he'll test the knives as he sees fit and I believe he reports what he sees. He said that he wouldn't because he wouldn't give subjective information like I wanted. I told him that wasn't the case at all and that we would all report what we found. Ankerson volunteered along with a couple other people. Cliff didn't because cliff acts like a child at times. That's the deep reason most don't listen to him. You never know if he's acting with some sense of neutrality or if he's just being a grown baby. And the fact that if you don't follow his "teachings" then you must be a shill for someone. And that everyone is an idiot but him. That's why he was booted and became a joke, not any other reason.

[ChrisinHove]

Contrary opinion can help make most debates more interesting, but moving things along .... if I recall correctly, Sal mentioned a short while back on here that a collab between Spyderco and Mr Stamp had been mooted.

That also would have been interesting.

[Bodog]

Contrary opinion can help make most debates more interesting ...

Absolutely, but both sides need to respect each other and Cliff seems to lack that so it's returned in kind.

At the very least most people in the knife world recognize the name "Cliff Stamp." They say that bad press is better than no press.

[anagarika]

I do think this thread should be in off topic section. It's about Cliff, not Spyderco.

The fact that Sal tolerates him, it means he contributes in one way or another. I actually enjoy his discussion though not always agree with his view, or with his habit of writing off experiments that doesn't go within his framework.

:cool:

[Nate]

Bodog,

I don't have time to respond to everything, but regarding the banning specifically, I am disappointed to see you parroting Jim's lies on the subject. This has been addressed many times. I have seen the post in the thread that got Cliff banned on BF and it is consistent with his statement:

As an aside :

'And why you have been banned just about everyplace on the internet.'

To once again I will correct this constant lie you like to repeat. I have been banned from one knife forum, Bladeforums, and the reason why is in my last post which is readily available. I criticized Spark for not holding up to the principles that Mike [Turber] advocated when he formed Bladeforums. I have stopping posting on two other forums, not banned, my accounts are still active, I just don't support censorship and have a fairly strict policy on that.

Source

I'm sure this will reinforce to some that I am some lap-dog follower, part of Cliff's gang, etc... but this is completely absurd, the whole notion is some sort of ridiculous fantasy. I am no more a "follower" of Cliff than I am of Bodog or Ankerson or anyone else, but I tend to defend people when I feel that the attacks leveled are baseless and/or unfair. I would do the same for you or, yes, even Jim if I saw it.

I highly respect the guy, find his contributions enormously interesting and helpful, and have found most of the attacks leveled at him to be unwarranted or outright falsehoods once I took the time to track things down and objectively read what was actually written. Of course no one is perfect, but I've gone looking for "the beef" (Cliff being wrong, Cliff being a bully, etc...) many times and haven't come up with much, and sorry, but your one-sided account of private conversations sounds a little suspect to me, too many unknowns, unverifiable, etc...

Finally, Cliff has taken a ton of flak for his use of the word "shill." I tend to think the term is too loaded and that he shouldn't use it, but I would note that he uses it with a specific meaning:

It is when someone has an intentional bais towards promotion but pretends to be unbiased. It is easy to see in threads like these because criticism is responded to very different than praise. Criticism can be condemned while praise is accepted even if the praise has no justification or the justification is obviously invalid. Now to be frank, everyone tends to do that for the things they like, the term shill only tends to be used when it becomes really overt as in criticism sets off personal responses almost instantly.

Source

I have seen a ton of this on knife forums in general and even more acutely with regard to Cliff. Someone sees something they disagree with and don't want to accept/don't understand/don't want hear, and since they can't or are unwilling to put in the time/effort to respond with a coherent rebuttal or counterargument, or are simply unable to accept that maybe they are the one who is wrong, they instead turn to personal attacks and other nonsense.

[Cliff Stamp]

Finally, Cliff has taken a ton of flak for his use of the word "shill." I tend to think the term is too loaded and that he shouldn't use it....

I agree, which is why I stopped using it. I would argue it technically correct, but regardless it simply is taken so much as a pejorative it simply degrades communication.

if I recall correctly, Sal mentioned a short while back on here that a collab between Spyderco and Mr Stamp had been mooted.

Sal asked me if I would be interested in a collaboration, I am interested in it yes, but for various reasons I just don't want to be selling knives at this point. I will gladly help anyone who asks about knives, steels, or whatever if they ask, I just don't want my name on or associated with anything at this point. However, for what it is worth, if I was going to, Spyderco would likely be the manufacturer I would choose.

As for much of the above, a lot of it is just personal interpretation about my character from people whose knowledge of me consists of internet interactions on one subject, if you find that compelling evidence to make inductive claims then by all means do so. However regarding the claims about me refusing to accept evidence, here is the thread about diamonds :

- //forum.spyderco.com/viewto ... =2&t=68482

I don't believe I would not particulate in a review because I would not give subjective experience, if I said that then I must have been on very little sleep (it happens) because you can't have objective experience or an objective opinion. Every conclusion I reach is subjective, and I don't even think there are such things as objective methods, though some methods have better truth tracking than others. I would not be part of a passaround that Bodog does for the same reason I felt it was pointless to continue the discussion which I noted in the above thread which you can read if you are interested.

As for some of the other comments, they are kind of odd, but this one in particular is just well really odd :

"or with his habit of writing off experiments that doesn't go within his framework"

I have been critical of methods used to test knives yes, and when I have I have spelled out in great detail why the methods used can not support the conclusions gained. In fact I have written in even more detail on why I don't do thinks I used to do because I discovered they were not reliable and why that is the case. I even have a thread on the forum on all the experience I do which fail, and why they didn't work and are not reliable. At times it can seem like a perfectly fine idea to do something until you do it and realize for one or more reasons it simply is unlikely to produce reliable results.

As for other methods, I have been sponsoring pass-arounds since the 90's, there are very few restrictions on them :

-you have to report everything you do
-you have to be honest
-be considerate of the other people in the passarounds

There are no restrictions on methods at all. At times I write them up (though less than I should), here is an example :

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/evalua ... ckc_x.html

Their conclusions are just reported in their own words, and the methods they use can be similar or not to mine. It doesn't stop anyone from being included in it.

It is also really odd to say I have a framework, because it contradicts my position on what science is and what it can not be. This is off topic here, and I discuss it in other places, but in short, it isn't what someone does which demarcates science to me, but what they intend and how they incorporate into their work the work of others and how they are incorporated into the body as a whole.

[ChrisinHove]

I am not at all interested in all the "history" here, but I am intrigued as to what form such a collab would take.

[sal]

I think a collaboration would be fun. I'd be happy to assist in any way possible.

Also, I believe this forum benefits from all input, as long as it's civil.

sal

[avocadobbq]

How about a collaboration with a pseudonym? Might I suggest Feynman?

[Stuart Ackerman]

I have suggested a name to Cliff, for the knife that Cliff ever collabs with... :)

[PaleMoon]

I haven't really looked into Cliff's entire online history, but every now and then as I google information, I'll end up on threads from various forums where he shared his opinion. Many times I've felt some people would get unreasonably emotional in their arguments with him, so much so that I had to slowly re-read Cliff's posts to see if there were any insults buried in there (English is not my first language, so some stuff can easily fly over my head).

To be honest, even though most of his posts are at a level of technicality way beyond my practical needs or understanding of metallurgy, I have yet to see an instance where his position didn't seem grounded in sound logic. I appreciate his contributions whenever I find them and feel he comes off as a fairly neutral individual. I hope he sticks around :)

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I hope this is okay for me to ask, but I ask because the idea of a Spyderco/Sal/Cliff Stamp collaboration knife is exciting!

If this were to be done, Sal, Cliff, what are some possible blade shapes and types and grinds you would both consider, as a rough estimate, or you really can't get into it at this time?

Examples: Would you want it to be a fixed blade or a folder? And would you want it to feature one of the newer more exotic steels, or, a steel that is already very familiar to people, such as VG10?

Also, just wondering, what do both of you think of VG-1 Stainless for a knife blade, on a Spyderco knife? I don't know much about it. And are there other VG series of stainless steels that you know of which would make good blade material?