Efficiency vs Freedom?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Efficiency vs Freedom?

#1

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

How can human civilization have a balance between efficiency and freedom without sacrificing either? Or in man's current iteration, is that not possible?

Here are some examples of what I mean:

In some places people starve and barely get enough food to eat, and in other places there is an abundance of food.

I have seen all manner of useful things thrown away such as readable books and furniture and clothes, because the owners either couldn't take it with them or they got new things and didn't want those anymore. Yet there are others who lack these items and would make better use of them.
Example: A man throws away a book on making baskets because it is taking up too much space or he doesn't want it anymore, but there is someone in the world who would read and enjoy and apply the knowledge in that book.

Housing: Some people own vast land holdings and buildings that go to waste and others barely can keep a roof over their head or are outright homeless.

Now, let me be clear: I am against all forms of Marxism/Communism/Socialism because they are inherently hypocritical systems that create tyrannies and lead to fascism of some form. But how can goods, services, and other things such as information be efficiently distributed and redistributed, without violating individual freedom, so that people all around can benefit?

Take our favorite topic on this forum: Knives. How can we make sure people who need and want a specific knife design or type get that knife?
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#2

Post by TomAiello »

Maximum freedom yields the greatest possible efficiency.

There is no trade off between them--when people are free to choose, humans organize themselves in the most efficient manner.

Freedom _is_ efficiency.
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#3

Post by JD Spydo »

This is a great topic you bring up SEF :) Because I've encountered the exact same thing you have. I've got a storage unit about half full of extremely useful household items that were literally thrown in the dumpster at my former place of employment. And they had no problem with me dumpster diving to retrieve it all. One item was a case of Sterno fuel ( 48 cans) which would sell at Rip-Mart for about $7 per can. I was able to give them to a Boy Scout troop that a very good lady friend of mine and her husband are running at this time and they were overwhelmed with joy to get them along with a long list of other items I game them that would have been in a landfill within the next 5 days or so had I not saved the items.

The people that contributed to my former place of employment gave us a lot of great usable items that would cost serious money if you had to go buy them. And they disregarded a lot of these contributed items for the most utterly ridiculous excuses I've ever heard :mad: But lately I've also volunteered at a couple of churches since becoming good friends with an ordained minister who I've helped a lot in the past year. And again the stuff these churces were going to throw in the dumpster just made my jaw drop. Especially all the lean times I've been in through the past 3 years because of medical expenses. Again they didn't even bat an eyelash when I got the discarded items and took them with me :rolleyes:

The USA is a really blessed country and I don't think I would want to live anywhere else at this time but it is also the most un-appreciative and wasteful country of people on the entire planet with no close second behind us IMO.
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The Mastiff
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#4

Post by The Mastiff »

Take our favorite topic on this forum: Knives. How can we make sure people who need and want a specific knife design or type get that knife?
You can't. Concentrate on you and your immediate family and leave the rest to them and their families. It makes life a lot simpler. Even if you had all the power you need would you impose your idea of what is right on everyone else? Even god chooses not to do that and he is god.

Joe
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#5

Post by ChrisinHove »

Ever since I read Paul Theroux describing how charitable old clothing exports devastated the textile and clothes manufacturing industries in parts of Africa and the over-empowerment of some aid agencies I’ve been very careful cautious about these matters.
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#6

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

The Mastiff wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:49 am
Take our favorite topic on this forum: Knives. How can we make sure people who need and want a specific knife design or type get that knife?
You can't. Concentrate on you and your immediate family and leave the rest to them and their families. It makes life a lot simpler. Even if you had all the power you need would you impose your idea of what is right on everyone else? Even god chooses not to do that and he is god.

Joe
This is a very good point.
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SpyderEdgeForever
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#7

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:06 am
Ever since I read Paul Theroux describing how charitable old clothing exports devastated the textile and clothes manufacturing industries in parts of Africa and the over-empowerment of some aid agencies I’ve been very careful cautious about these matters.
That seems like an interesting thing to read.

What effect world wide do you think there would be if people could make a specialized "Clothing Fabricator" that was able to break down the fibers of cloth into their basic molecules, and rearrange them into brand new clothes? Picture it having an integral computer scanner that gets your exact size right and assembles the final clothing items with no post production finishing required. An "Automatic Personal Tailor Machine." Think of all the waste and refuse that would no longer be needed, no scraps, and very efficient for energy use.
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tvenuto
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#8

Post by tvenuto »

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:19 pm
Maximum freedom yields the greatest possible efficiency.

There is no trade off between them--when people are free to choose, humans organize themselves in the most efficient manner.

Freedom _is_ efficiency.
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#9

Post by ChrisinHove »

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:57 am
ChrisinHove wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:06 am
Ever since I read Paul Theroux describing how charitable old clothing exports devastated the textile and clothes manufacturing industries in parts of Africa and the over-empowerment of some aid agencies I’ve been very careful cautious about these matters.
That seems like an interesting thing to read.

What effect world wide do you think there would be if people could make a specialized "Clothing Fabricator" that was able to break down the fibers of cloth into their basic molecules, and rearrange them into brand new clothes? Picture it having an integral computer scanner that gets your exact size right and assembles the final clothing items with no post production finishing required. An "Automatic Personal Tailor Machine." Think of all the waste and refuse that would no longer be needed, no scraps, and very efficient for energy use.
A bit like a 3D printer for clothes? Almost inevitable, I would think.

I didn’t know until I heard it on the radio the other day, but the role of man made fabrics in ocean plastic pollution. Apparently micro fibres get washed out in the laundry, too small to be filtered out, are finding their way into the oceans, ingested by micro organisms, and become concentrated up the eco-system, rather than decaying like organic fibres.
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#10

Post by kiwisailor »

As Kids, we were told Charity begins at home.
I didn't understand the concept at first until it was explained to me like this.
Look out for yourself and Family first, THEN you will have the Health to help others with their Health.
Kind of like First Aid at a Accident scene, if the First Aider is not safe, then that Person is only going to make the situation worse by also becoming a victim.

We have a Group here in Auckland that go around to food Manufacturers and Shops that have excess food (unsold/time expired etc) and distribute it to others in need.
It has been hugely successful for both Parties as it solves the problem and expense of dumping the Food and People receiving it obviously benefit.

Usually in this scenario of re-distributing any unwanted goods, the cost (time AND money) of transporting is the problem which stops the loop.
Being able to make a single phone call to the Distribution Hub, who then take over and take EVERTHING (other than slops which someone else picks up for Pig food) takes the hassle out for time poor suppliers.

Very similar to Charities like Women's Refuge, who will come around to a Home and take every thing offered gratefully.
Some Charities contacted are very fussy about what they will take to on-sell and pick through and take only what they can sell quickly.
This of course can cause a situation where the Person/Family clearing out the House are left with stuff they can only dump.
Process only seems to work well when everything is taken away for distribution.
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#11

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

kiwi, thank you. That makes me so happy to know that is there and those people are helping in that way.

If an American or other "Westerner" were to go to a place like New Zealand or the Polynesian islands in the modern time, and explained to the locals something to this effect "I really like you all and your enviroment here, and I want to live with and amongst you. I am not rich but I can learn and I am into knives and survival.", what would their most likely response be?
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#12

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The Mastiff
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#13

Post by The Mastiff »

Such is life. Or, He chose poorly.


:)
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#14

Post by michaelm466 »

I think in your original post, your comparing freedom vs waste, rather than efficiency- for example, say I, a "rich" man have 2 whole chickens for dinner- I need 12oz of chicken to be full- the most efficient (time) way to get that 12oz is eating the large pieces of meat- breast, thigh, once I have my 12 oz, I throw the rest away because I don't want to waste time picking out the tiny amounts of meat from the wings, neck, feet, heart, liver, etc- I make enough $ per hour that it would be inefficient use of time. Where as Bob, a poor man has one chicken- which cost him 3 days work- it's the most efficient for him to use and pick out every piece of meat from the chicken, use the feathers for a home made pillow, the bones for fishhooks, and anything left over to fertilize his garden with.
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#15

Post by MichaelScott »

THE "TWO COW" EXPLANATION

A CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT: You have two cows. You keep one and give one to
your neighbor.

A SOCIALIST: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it
to your neighbor.

AN AMERICAN REPUBLICAN: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So
what?

AN AMERICAN DEMOCRAT: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You
feel guilty for being successful. You vote people into office who tax
your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The
people you voted for then take the tax money and buy a cow and give it
to your neighbor. You feel righteous.

COMMUNIST: You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides
you with milk.

A FASCIST: You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you
the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.

DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE: You have two cows. The government taxes you
to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign
country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your government.

CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE: You have two cows. You sell one, buy a
bull, and build a herd of cows.

BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE: You have two cows. The government takes
them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, then
pours the milk down the drain.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You sell one, and force
the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the
cow drops dead.

A FRENCH CORPORATION: You have two cows. You go on strike because you
want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION: You have two cows. You redesign them so they
are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the
milk. You then create clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and
market them Worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You reengineer them so they
live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

A BRITISH CORPORATION: You have two cows. They are mad. They die. Pass
the shepherd's pie, please.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows, but you don't know where
they are. You break for lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You count them and learn you
have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You
count them again and learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows
and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION: You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you.
You charge others for storing them.

A BRAZILIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You enter into a
partnership with an American corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and
the American corporation declares bankruptcy.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You worship both of them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION: You have two cows. You have 300 people milking
them. You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest
the newsman who reported on them.


Michael
Overheard at the end of the ice age, “We’ve been having such unnatural weather.”

http://acehotel.blog

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wrdwrght
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#16

Post by wrdwrght »

:D
-Marc (pocketing an M4 Sage5 today)

“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
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Re: Efficiency vs Freedom?

#17

Post by TomAiello »

Interesting read here on this subject: https://fee.org/articles/economic-efficiency/

Freedom and Efficiency

People often argue that wide-ranging government restrictions on our freedom are necessary to promote efficiency. But economic efficiency is impossible without freedom because it is not the narrow concept many accuse it of being.
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