Giants

[MichaelScott]

The Old Testament is the only source to report such feats. Practically, slinging rocks results in poor accuracy.

[O,just,O]

, I do not believe. The Bible says one giant in Gath had 6 fingers and toes.

Be more careful with what you believe.
Read 2 Samuel 21:20.
O.

[JD Spydo]

I would like to note that I said that Wadlow was the a similar height as Goliath. At 8'11", he was a real giant. That's 9 feet or 6 cubits of human being. Goliath was 9'9". Goliath's height is not really all that unbelievable after all. However, the Septuagint (LXX, 4th to 2nd centuries BC), which is older than the Masoretic Hebrew text (500 AD) has Goliath's height at 6'9".

As for the 6 fingers and six toes, that is a trait that pops up now and again. I know a woman with 6 fingers, in fact. So, it is conceivable that some giants also had 6 fingers and/or toes as it is a not unheard of human trait. The Bible does not say Goliath had 6 fingers and toes, I do not believe. The Bible says one giant in Gath had 6 fingers and toes.

No Doc I very respectfully disagree with you on that point. Because Robert Wadlow had a problem with his pituitary gland. I met a Doctor who was a specialist in that field who explained that to me in detail when I raised the possibility of Mr. Wadlow being a remnant of the Biblical Giants. And that's the case for a lot of these "modern day giants". Robert Wadlow did not have 6 fingers and 6 toes as depicted in Second Samuel, Chapter 20 verses 20 & 21. He didn't have two rows of teeth either which is an anomaly that has been discovered in some remains. I was also told that Andre The Giant ( wrestler) had problems with his pituitary gland as well.

And for those who are saying that the evidence of the Giants is only confined to the old Testament there are some verses in the book of Jude in the New Testament that correlate with the Book of Enoch which was actually considered canonized scripture>> which the Vatican later on removed from what I was told >> however one of the oldest sects of Bible believing Christians in the nation of Ethiopia still regard the Book Of Enoch as valid canonized scripture and it is part of their Bible to this very day. And the New Testament makes several references to "As In The Days Of Noah" and there were most definitely giants in those days. Many scholars during the time of Jesus were aware of the history of the giants. The giants of the Old Testament were often referred to as "men of renown" throughout scripture.

The book of Enoch was also re-discovered in a strange but timely way in the Dead Sea Scrolls they found in the 1940s. The book of Enoch most definitely differentiates between the giants that were a product of the Nephilim which were absolutely completely different creatures than ordinary humans. For the past 10 years I've found it extremely interesting that the subject of the giants has had a new rekindled interest. Many modern theologians believe they were nothing but a metaphor :confused:

[The Meat man]

The Old Testament is the only source to report such feats. Practically, slinging rocks results in poor accuracy.

Certainly not. In the hands of a skilled warrior, the sling was both accurate and deadly. I would suggest googling "the sling as a weapon". Here is an informative Wikipedia article:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(weapon)


As you can see from the article, many ancient writings and references give evidence of the effectiveness of the sling as an accurate weapon.

[MichaelScott]

To amplify on the Enoch writings:
“But even more intriguing is the fact that additional, previously unknown or little-known texts about Enoch were discovered at Qumran. The most important of these is The Book of Giants. Enoch lived before the Flood, during a time when the world, in ancient imagination, was very different. Human beings lived much longer, for one thing; Enoch's son Methuselah, for instance, attained the age of 969 years. Another difference was that angels and humans interacted freely -- so freely, in fact, that some of the angels begot children with human females. This fact is neutrally reported in Genesis (6:1-4), but other stories view this episode as the source of the corruption that made the punishing flood necessary. According to The Book of Enoch, the mingling of angel and human was actually the idea of Shernihaza, the leader of the evil angels, who lured 200 others to cohabit with women. The offspring of these unnatural unions were giants 450 feet high. The wicked angels and the giants began to oppress the human population and to teach them to do evil. For this reason God determined to imprison the angels until the final judgment and to destroy the earth with a flood. “
Hmmm… 450 foot semi-divine giants. Wow.

Source: http://www.gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_b ... giants.htm

[Bloke]

the giants began to oppress the human population

[The Meat man]

Saltwater crocs, poisonous snakes, and now this! :D :D

[SpyderEdgeForever]

These “giants” are unfortunate souls with genetic abnormalities as was likely Goliath. I also suspect that a boy killing an armed man, regardless of his size, is a bit of wishful thinking.

The Bible records that David killed the giant with a sling and stone, at a distance.

A skilled slinger in ancient warfare was a very formidable enemy. I don't find the idea that a boy skilled in the use of the sling could take down an armed man incredible.

The Bible also speaks elsewhere of a group of slingers so skilled that they did not miss their targets by a hair's breadth. You did not want to mess with those fighters.

Great point Meat Man. Goliath was a real monster as were his brothers. Most of these ancient giants were cannibalistic, as the American indian histories even mention. Entire tribes had to unite to take them down. Think about the metabolic requirements of a man who measures 9 and a half feet tall.

[Doc Dan]

I would like to note that I said that Wadlow was the a similar height as Goliath. At 8'11", he was a real giant. That's 9 feet or 6 cubits of human being. Goliath was 9'9". Goliath's height is not really all that unbelievable after all. However, the Septuagint (LXX, 4th to 2nd centuries BC), which is older than the Masoretic Hebrew text (500 AD) has Goliath's height at 6'9".

As for the 6 fingers and six toes, that is a trait that pops up now and again. I know a woman with 6 fingers, in fact. So, it is conceivable that some giants also had 6 fingers and/or toes as it is a not unheard of human trait. The Bible does not say Goliath had 6 fingers and toes, I do not believe. The Bible says one giant in Gath had 6 fingers and toes.

No Doc I very respectfully disagree with you on that point. Because Robert Wadlow had a problem with his pituitary gland. I met a Doctor who was a specialist in that field who explained that to me in detail when I raised the possibility of Mr. Wadlow being a remnant of the Biblical Giants. And that's the case for a lot of these "modern day giants". Robert Wadlow did not have 6 fingers and 6 toes as depicted in Second Samuel, Chapter 20 verses 20 & 21. He didn't have two rows of teeth either which is an anomaly that has been discovered in some remains. I was also told that Andre The Giant ( wrestler) had problems with his pituitary gland as well.

And for those who are saying that the evidence of the Giants is only confined to the old Testament there are some verses in the book of Jude in the New Testament that correlate with the Book of Enoch which was actually considered canonized scripture>> which the Vatican later on removed from what I was told >> however one of the oldest sects of Bible believing Christians in the nation of Ethiopia still regard the Book Of Enoch as valid canonized scripture and it is part of their Bible to this very day. And the New Testament makes several references to "As In The Days Of Noah" and there were most definitely giants in those days. Many scholars during the time of Jesus were aware of the history of the giants. The giants of the Old Testament were often referred to as "men of renown" throughout scripture.

The book of Enoch was also re-discovered in a strange but timely way in the Dead Sea Scrolls they found in the 1940s. The book of Enoch most definitely differentiates between the giants that were a product of the Nephilim which were absolutely completely different creatures than ordinary humans. For the past 10 years I've found it extremely interesting that the subject of the giants has had a new rekindled interest. Many modern theologians believe they were nothing but a metaphor :confused:

The Book of Enoch was not taken out by the Vatican. The Book of Enoch was not considered as holy writ by most and when the Canon of Scripture was settled at the 4th Ecumenical Council it was purposely left out by the entire united Church.

[JD Spydo]

First of all MichaelScott that was a great rundown of the Book Of Enoch and facts surrounding that. Thanks for sharing that with us. Now I believe that Qumran is the village close to where they found those Dead Sea Scrolls at?? I think it was in 1947 when they found those Dead Sea Scrolls. But I can see you've read that part of Genesis in more than one translation >> I'm still trying to get my hands on two translations of the Bible that are tough to find in English.

Also we did a genealogy assignment at the church I've been attending about a year ago and we discovered that Enoch was Noah's great, great Grandfather. I find that extremely interesting from the standpoint that it was one of Enoch's descendants that found favor with building the Ark. Also it's pretty much agreed among many scholars that there were pre-flood giants and post-flood giants. Goliath and his family were most certainly post flood giants

Because in the book of Numbers when Joshua and Caleb were sent to check out the land ahead and they brought back a report listed in Numbers 13, verses 32 & 33 where they stated there were giants in the land and they were like grasshoppers in their sight.

OK DOC DAN you may be right about the Vatican not removing the Book of Enoch. But the guy that told me that was a very well versed and educated guy who studied that subject a lot>> I'm going to have to get with him and get the straight scoop on that one for sure. But I did check into whether or not the present day Church in Ethiopia had the Book Of Enoch in their scriptures and that was confirmed. Actually with the content of the book I can see why some people would want it deleted unfortunately.

[tvenuto]

I mean if you're a normal human size and you've stood next to or shook the hand of an NFL lineman, you quickly realize that "giants" do exist.

I'm pretty puzzled by this topic. Is there any question that there is a wide range of human sizes, both now and in the past? This is due to any one of: normal genetic variation, environmental factors, genetic mutations or disorders, etc. Where you draw the line at "giant" is both arbitrary and relative. If you're 5'4" then you probably draw the line lower than someone else.

This is like saying: "I have a german shepherd, but I hear that there are dogs out there the size of a great dane! I believe it's true, how about you?" Yes, it's true. Very large people have lived and do live now.

If we subbed out the word "giant" in this thread for the word "boogeyman" the whole thing makes a lot more sense.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

tv, here is what the difference seems to me, to be.

Except, perhaps, for some of those rare giants who we see in some of those earlier film clips, most of them, such as Robert Wadlow, and the female giantesses, who suffer from genetic mutations that cause their giantism, appear to be relatively weak. The giants of legend and also historical recordings, were, on the other hand, fearsome beings who could easilly dispatch multiple human targets at once, and were vicious cannibals, and had other nefarious attributes. These were not merely extra tall men and women with brittle bones and fragile hearts.

This leads one to think there was something "else" going on. Do you recall the thread I posted about invisible intelligent energy beings? What if those same beings, possessing incredible scientific knowledge, and abilities, such as the ability to materialize one hundred Spyderco or Tops Knives within seconds, took to tinkering with the human DNA and genetic lines....and created true giants: Horrific monsters from the 9.5 foot up to several hundred foot tall ranges; those larger ones would have had to have extra detailed engineering and tinkering to overcome such things as the scaling laws that would make natural creatures of those sizes weaker.

In short, if you could engineer human and animal genes at will, at the germ line level, and control matter at the molecular level and greater, you could make these creatures that would function as foot soldiers for your plans.

[Doc Dan]

SEF, one of the problems with engineering giants as soldiers is that with the increased size, the cost of food, clothing, and equipment would go up exponentially. It would be far better and cheaper to develop nanobots that could tear apart anything and anybody and then die off. Giants look fearsome, but to a species that battled giant beasts like short faced bears during the ice age to survive, they would not be too worrisome.

[MichaelScott]

Yes, JD, Qumran was the Essene settlement at the northern end of the Dead Sea, near where the Jordan enters, where the scrolls were discovered. The scrolls were in caves nearby most likely to hide them and other Essene and Jewish writings from destruction by the Romans who showed up there in about 68 or 69 CE and killed or enslaved everyone there who was dumb enough to have stayed.

This was about 40 or 50 years after Jesus’ execution and about the time scholars think Mark, the earliest canonical gospel, was written. There is absolutely no mention of Christianity or anyone associated with it in any of the scrolls.

An interesting point is that Qumran is within visual and walking distance of the traditional baptism site at the Jordan where John baptized Jesus. There are certain similarities in what scholars think are some of Jesus’ actual beliefs (it is difficult to ferret out what may have been Jesus’ words and teachings from the mass of stuff added later ove a few hundred years) and the Essene theology to conjecture that Jesus was familiar with them or perhaps spent time with them. He seemed to have certainly been in the area.

[tvenuto]

[shakes head]

[ChrisinHove]

I think that if we can catalogue varieties of dinosaurs from over 66 million years ago by their global fossilised remains, can investigate the lives of the earliest hominids by cave paintings, detritus within their cave dwellings, and gene analysis, and in the absence of such evidence here, I would not choose to rely upon religious texts with their original creation from already ancient oral traditions, and subsequent multiple (mis)translations and political reinterpretations over literally millennia, however fascinating they are in their own right and importance.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Doc, I agree with you: It is much more efficient and there is much greater potential for them to make molecular engineered devices and robots.

[MichaelScott]

I think that if we can catalogue varieties of dinosaurs from over 66 million years ago by their global fossilised remains, can investigate the lives of the earliest hominids by cave paintings, detritus within their cave dwellings, and gene analysis, and in the absence of such evidence here, I would not choose to rely upon religious texts with their original creation from already ancient oral traditions, and subsequent multiple (mis)translations and political reinterpretations over literally millennia, however fascinating they are in their own right and importance.

Agreed. But, historically and philosophically there is gold to be mined in the earliest examples we have.

[Bodog]

Why and how did people know about dinosaurs prior to the renaissance?

[ThePeacent]

Why and how did people know about dinosaurs prior to the renaissance?

they didn't :confused:

"Later, in 1822, large teeth discovered in England by Mary Ann Mantell and her husband, Gideon, were thought to be the remains of a huge and extinct iguana. It wasn't until 1841 that British scientist Richard Owen came to realize that such fossils were distinct from the teeth or bones of any living creature."